Z30 on T-Mobile / STA100-3 or STA 100-5?

Originally Posted by Z50

Excellent replies from both of you. Thanks. So no plans to use band 12 in Canada, and only T-Mobile barely using it (more as time goes by), and no Band 12 on Apple devices kind of seals the deal. BlackBerry's decision to not include Band 12 is a no brainer. T-Mobile and BlackBerry aren't exactly buddies and a lack of Band 12 use by pretty much every other carrier in Canada and USA sure doesn't show a pressing need to include it in their products. I guess I was thinking it was a mistake but I have now reconsidered.

To be perfectly honest, I was along the same train of thought as you were in regards to the lack of Band 12 on BlackBerry 10 devices until I realized it was only primarily T-Mobile looking to utilize it in the very near future.

My guess is that if T-Mobile and BlackBerry rekindle their business relationship and you start to see the Big 3 in Canada utilizing Band 12 within the next 2 years (rather than the 5 as per the licensing agreement), you will see BlackBerry roll out a device with focus on using Band 12 (amongst other bands, of course).

I cannot help but wonder if the new BlackBerry slider will include Band 12 LTE capability or not. My bet is on no, but then again, we all could be surprised.

Above this post are some of the most informative that I have ever read. Well done to all. What surprises me the most about this whole discussion is the lack of LTE bands in the Blackberry Z30 offerings. Apple's iPhone 6 offered by AT&T includes 16 different LTE bands covering just about every carrier that I know. Why not the same for the former flagship Z30? If Blackberry had been more generous with the LTE bands included in their phones, we would not have to be having conversations about which Z30 model might be good for a given city. Certainly one phone model could cover all possibilities, Blackberry just needs to go there with their offerings.

Originally Posted by Mozdony

Above this post are some of the most informative that I have ever read. Well done to all. What surprises me the most about this whole discussion is the lack of LTE bands in the Blackberry Z30 offerings. Apple's iPhone 6 offered by AT&T includes 16 different LTE bands covering just about every carrier that I know. Why not the same for the former flagship Z30? If Blackberry had been more generous with the LTE bands included in their phones, we would not have to be having conversations about which Z30 model might be good for a given city. Certainly one phone model could cover all possibilities, Blackberry just needs to go their with their offerings.

You are absolutely correct. There is no good reason I can think of as to why the Z30 was not packed with LTE bands like even some of the cheap android and Windows phones are. The Apple example is spot on also. If Blackberry put more useful bands in their Z30 then I would be using one right now without a doubt. But as it stands now, the STA100-5 is so LTE limited that it is useless in the USA in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Smitty13

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the STA100-1 supposedly going to have Band 2 LTE support, but was never released? As far as I can tell this model never really made it to the hands of the public, which really leaves me scratching my head.

Chen likely killed it. Since neither AT&T nor T-Mobile decide to pick up the phone because they were likely still stuck with a glut of Z10 inventory and poor BlackBerry sales, Chen had to have killed it. BlackBerry had a great phone with the Z30, too bad they never believed in it, promoted it, or priced it appropriately in the beginning. The Leap is just a slap in the face compare to the Z10 or Z30. I wish they would just say when the expect the slider out and start releasing details about it. They will probably lose a lot of customers with their secrecy which isn't helping them.

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So what if AT&T or T-Mobile didn't officially supply or support the Z30. If BlackBerry wasn't so stupid and made a Z30 model that covered all the AT&T and T-mobile LTE and HSPA+ bands anyway and sold it unlocked, they would have sold like crazy. The Z30 is almost a perfect phone except for it's absolute ridiculous lack of LTE bands.

Originally Posted by Z50

You are absolutely correct. There is no good reason I can think of as to why the Z30 was not packed with LTE bands like even some of the cheap android and Windows phones are. The Apple example is spot on also. If Blackberry put more useful bands in their Z30 then I would be using one right now without a doubt. But as it stands now, the STA100-5 is so LTE limited that it is useless in the USA in my opinion.

This is exactly my point. The only thing that I would say differently about the Z30, however, is that it is severely "LTE challenged" for the U.S. Market. Note that I only say this because some lucky folks (not me) actually live in a city where their carrier broadcasts on band 4, 5, or 7.

Just wanted to throw this out there, and forgive me as this list appears to be somewhat out of date, but an effort was being made to keep track of cities and areas where the STA100-5 had LTE compatibility on the AT&T network here.

I may have to fire the OP in that thread a PM to see if we can revive that thread with some updates and perhaps clean it up a bit. Anyone here willing to offer some info up on their experiences if this is a go?

Originally Posted by Smitty13

My guess is that if T-Mobile and BlackBerry rekindle their business relationship and you start to see the Big 3 in Canada utilizing Band 12 within the next 2 years (rather than the 5 as per the licensing agreement), you will see BlackBerry roll out a device with focus on using Band 12 (amongst other bands, of course).

I think if the Big 3 start using it, band 12 will come to BBs regardless of TMO being on-board or not. I mean, they've started putting band 13 in GSM phones and according to the wiki page you linked to, Telus just has it in trial right now (with others not even there yet.)

Originally Posted by Mozdony

If Blackberry had been more generous with the LTE bands included in their phones, we would not have to be having conversations about which Z30 model might be good for a given city. Certainly one phone model could cover all possibilities, Blackberry just needs to go their with their offerings.

Agreed. And they did that with the Passport SQW100-1.

Originally Posted by Mozdony

What surprises me the most about this whole discussion is the lack of LTE bands in the Blackberry Z30 offerings. Apple's iPhone 6 offered by AT&T includes 16 different LTE bands covering just about every carrier that I know. Why not the same for the former flagship Z30?

This is purely conjecture, but I think that's because it's a "fleet" phone that was shopped to carriers in a US/Canada fashion--where the latter nation's carriers aren't that fussy about bands. Apple marches to the beat of their own drum, so perhaps a better comparison for "fleet" phones would be...everything else. Just look at Samsung phones that are heavily entrenched in the carrier channels: you can have multiple non-LTE and LTE versions of the same phone. The GS3 had something like 15 models. Hell, I know my carrier alone sold two of them. Anyway, my point is that almost everyone else builds phones to carrier network specs, and sometimes, that requires multiple models. The Passport SQW100-1 has a lot of disclosed bands, but if you look at the -3 that AT&T got (the only single-carrier Passport,) it has all but one of the -1's bands, but some of them (like UMTS 1700) are hidden. Even with the Classic, AT&T does not sell the NA -4 model. A notable band missing from their -2: UMTS 1700.

Even after accounting for the "please the carriers" trend, the Z30 is a weird phone. We're discussing US/Canada models here, but two other models (-2 and -6) differ by one LTE band. Some odd band combination choices, for sure.

Originally Posted by Z50

So what if AT&T or T-Mobile didn't officially supply or support the Z30. If BlackBerry wasn't so stupid and made a Z30 model that covered all the AT&T and T-mobile LTE and HSPA+ bands anyway and sold it unlocked, they would have sold like crazy. The Z30 is almost a perfect phone except for it's absolute ridiculous lack of LTE bands.

I agree. But at that time I don't think they had the direct to consumer sales thing in mind. Plus I think they had already committed to build so many units and knew the device wasn't going to be a huge success and just did what they did. Chen killed off some devices when he took the helm, STA100-1 was likely one of those he killed.

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Originally Posted by lnichols

I agree. But at that time I don't think they had the direct to consumer sales thing in mind. Plus I think they had already committed to build so many units and knew the device wasn't going to be a huge success and just did what they did. Chen killed off some devices when he took the helm, STA100-1 was likely one of those he killed.

Good point about the D2C being an afterthought. But why even design a -5 and a -1 when could have added LTE b7 to the -1 and had one unified NA GSM model?

Originally Posted by raino

I think if the Big 3 start using it, band 12 will come to BBs regardless of TMO being on-board or not. I mean, they've started putting band 13 in GSM phones and according to the wiki page you linked to, Telus just has it in trial right now (with others not even there yet.)

Good points, raino. I suppose, rather ironically, I am used to the trend rather being set in the US with Canada following suit, whereas this situation may prove to be the opposite as you pointed out.

Bell appears to have the obligatory "planned" stage for Band 13 roll out, while Telus appears to be the only one of the Big 3 actually putting any plans into motion. And while they are not major players in comparison to Robellus, MTS, Vid�otron, and SaskTel appear to have plans for Band 13 as well. (Source for anyone who wishes to have a look: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...d_LTE_networks)

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Originally Posted by raino

Good point about the D2C being an afterthought. But why even design a -5 and a -1 when could have added LTE b7 to the -1 and had one unified NA GSM model?

Absolutely spot on raino. That would have allowed the Z30 to provide LTE coverage to virtually every major city in North America. If Blackberry released such a model, I would happily buy it even though I already have a -5 model for my wife and I. Chen, if you read this post, please take Note!

We are talking about LTE bands, but different BB10 devices may not even get 3G if used in the wrong country. I have had to buy 2-Z10s and 2-Q10s just to be able to get half descent speeds when traveling to Europe from USA. My Nexus 5 doesn't seem to have much problem, but the BB10 devices do!

Originally Posted by raino

Good point about the D2C being an afterthought. But why even design a -5 and a -1 when could have added LTE b7 to the -1 and had one unified NA GSM model?

Well you have to remember that they likely had this thing designed a year out. We were hearing leaks of the Aristo around the BB10 launch and maybe even before. Every NA Device now will likely have the Passport and Leap's capabilities and cover most bands. AT&T also seems to like to keep their BlackBerry devices without the competitor bands on it, or differentiate other ways like the Passport. They don't want you to easily be able to go to a competitors network.

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Originally Posted by lnichols

Well you have to remember that they likely had this thing designed a year out. We were hearing leaks of the Aristo around the BB10 launch and maybe even before. Every NA Device now will likely have the Passport and Leap's capabilities and cover most bands. AT&T also seems to like to keep their BlackBerry devices without the competitor bands on it, or differentiate other ways like the Passport. They don't want you to easily be able to go to a competitors network.

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I hope this Blackberry trend toward covering many LTE bands in new devices continues. Perhaps a Z50 "world phone" could be marketed with perhaps two models, one CDMA and one GSM. Think of the possibilities!

Originally Posted by Mozdony

I hope this Blackberry trend toward covering many LTE bands in new devices continues. Perhaps a Z50 "world phone" could be marketed with perhaps two models, one CDMA and one GSM. Think of the possibilities!

Looks like the slider is the next all touch according to N4BB. I think the plan is now to make sure their all touch phones are cheap (Leap, although not cheap enough based on what it has) and high end will need to have a PKB to set it apart. It better be no thicker than a Z30 or I'm switching brands.

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Originally Posted by Mozdony

Chen, if you read this post, please take Note!

Looking at the Passport and Classic (North America model,) I think they might have. And I haven't looked at the Leap yet, but I've heard it too has one NA and one ROW model. That's it.

Originally Posted by KR2013

We are talking about LTE bands, but different BB10 devices may not even get 3G if used in the wrong country. I have had to buy 2-Z10s and 2-Q10s just to be able to get half descent speeds when traveling to Europe from USA. My Nexus 5 doesn't seem to have much problem, but the BB10 devices do!

With a Q10, you should have had 3G on the AT&T network just fine. I'm guessing you went with the TMO network and yeah--their UMTS 1700 band is not present in any of the non-NA Z10s or Q10s. Probably because it's a very Western band. I'm surprised LG chose to include it in the ROW model.

Originally Posted by lnichols

Well you have to remember that they likely had this thing designed a year out. We were hearing leaks of the Aristo around the BB10 launch and maybe even before.

Right, but I'm wondering why did they deviate from the design precedent that was already emerging from the NA Z10, Q10 and Q5: LTE 2/4/5/17, UMTS 1/2/4/5. Did LTE b7 throw them off that badly? :)

Originally Posted by lnichols

Every NA Device now will likely have the Passport and Leap's capabilities and cover most bands.

I'm not fully convinced about this. If they choose to 'hide' bands (where you need to unlock the phone and pop in an AWS carrier SIM or whatever) that's okay I guess, but this carrier/'fleet' phone band design is still present in the Classic: no UMTS 1700 in the AT&T Classic, no other US LTE band in the Verizon Classic but Verizon's.

So if carriers keep picking up BB phones (which is hope they do!) I think BB's going to keep leaving bands out of the carrier models. Therefore I hope they keep putting out all-NA models like they did with the Classic -4, Passport -1 and I guess the Leap (which last I read, had not been picked up by any US carriers.)

Originally Posted by lnichols

AT&T also seems to like to keep their BlackBerry devices without the competitor bands on it, or differentiate other ways like the Passport. They don't want you to easily be able to go to a competitors network.

This is so true.

Originally Posted by raino

Right, but I'm wondering why did they deviate from the design precedent that was already emerging from the NA Z10, Q10 and Q5: LTE 2/4/5/17, UMTS 1/2/4/5. Did LTE b7 throw them off that badly? :)

I think as soon as neither AT&T or T-Mobile committed to the Z30, likely throwing the failure and huge overstocks of Z10 in BlackBerry's face, BlackBerry bailed on the STA100-1 and decided to close out their purchasing agreement with Jabil Circuits with models for Verizon, Canada, and Europe. Also this was the first implementation of the Paratek antenna, so maybe they had some constraints in the first gen.

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Originally Posted by Mozdony

The screen shot from LTE Discovery shows no LTE signal is available for your Z10 in your area for TMobile. The Z10 STL 100-3 should be able to get LTE on bands 2, 4, 5 and 17. TMobile is on band 4 in most cities and band 2 after their upgrade in others. Does your Z10 show 4GLTE when you look at the upper right corner on your home screen? If not, TMobile may not be offering LTE data in your area or they are operating on a band not supported by your Z10.

Absolutely! Always shows 4G LTE.

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Attachment 347873

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Originally Posted by Z50

Just be aware that T-Mobile is in the middle of a giant LTE nationwide upgrade. They are now using Band 2 LTE in many areas nationwide. No GSM Z30 has band 2 LTE. The Z10 STL100-3 is still the best between the Z30 and the Z10 for LTE compatibility on T-Mobile and AT&T.
I'm not dumping on the Z30 but it is quickly becoming obsolete frequency wise in the USA. In raino's sig there are links to Models and supported frequencies. Have a look.

Well that's not good then. Not sure if I want to purchase the Z30, which by the way is still inexplicably more expensive than the brand new Leap, if it will no longer work after only a few months of owning it. The idea was to get a nice, cheap BlackBerry upgrade to my Z10 Until a premium all touch BlackBerry device comes out. But now I'm concerned and having second thoughts. Does the Leap have Band 2 LTE?

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Originally Posted by GEO1ER

Well that's not good then. Not sure if I want to purchase the Z30, which by the way is still inexplicably more expensive than the brand new Leap, if it will no longer work after only a few months of owning it. The idea was to get a nice, cheap BlackBerry upgrade to my Z10 Until a premium all touch BlackBerry device comes out. But now I'm concerned and having second thoughts. Does the Leap have Band 2 LTE?

Posted via CB10

The leap has far more LTE bands than the Z30. And yes, it has band 2 LTE.
Here is the frequency information directly from BlackBerry's website:
North America
FD-LTE: 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 13, 17 (2100/1900/AWS/850/2600/700 MHz)
HSPA+ 1, 2, 4, 5/6 (2100/1900/AWS/850 MHz)
Dual Carrier 42 HSPA support
Quad Band GSM/GPRS/EDGE 2, 3, 5, 8 (1900,1800,850,900 MHz)

Originally Posted by GEO1ER

Attachment 347873

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GEO1ER:

Your screen shot is certainly definitive for receipt of 4GLTE coverage in your area! This makes me think that something was interfering with LTE Discovery being able to tell you the right LTE band for your area before it shut down. I saw this shut down scenario on my old Z10 when I had installed the Google Play Store. This in turn caused LTE Discovery to look for Google Play Services and shut down as you described. It did that for other apps also so I removed it and began using Snap exclusively to download my android apps. Once I moved back to just using Snap, LTE Discovery worked fine and was able to show me that my Z10 used LTE band 17 for AT&T and band 4 when I tried a TMobile SIM in the phone for a couple of days. This was for the Portland, Oregon area. So, are you using the Google Play Store? Just wondering. That could keep LTE Discovery from giving the information that you need. However, given that your STL100-3 is clearly getting 4GLTE data on TMobile, I would think TMobile is using band 4 in your area as it is here in Portland. If I am right, the STA100-5 Z30 model should work just fine. However, if they are now using band 2, there is no model that will give you LTE data on TMobile in your city. The Z30 would then still work as a 4G phone which is what I get here in Portland. Again, not as fast for data downloads if not on wifi but still awesome! Try calling TMobile or speaking with one of their reps to see if they know the operating band for LTE in your city. I hope this helps.

Originally Posted by Mozdony

GEO1ER:

Your screen shot is certainly definitive for receipt of 4GLTE coverage in your area! This makes me think that something was interfering with LTE Discovery being able to tell you the right LTE band for your area before it shut down. I saw this shut down scenario on my old Z10 when I had installed the Google Play Store. This in turn caused LTE Discovery to look for Google Play Services and shut down as you described. It did that for other apps also so I removed it and began using Snap exclusively to download my android apps. Once I moved back to just using Snap, LTE Discovery worked fine and was able to show me that my Z10 used LTE band 17 for AT&T and band 4 when I tried a TMobile SIM in the phone for a couple of days. This was for the Portland, Oregon area. So, are you using the Google Play Store? Just wondering. That could keep LTE Discovery from giving the information that you need. However, given that your STL100-3 is clearly getting 4GLTE data on TMobile, I would think TMobile is using band 4 in your area as it is here in Portland. If I am right, the STA100-5 Z30 model should work just fine. However, if they are now using band 2, there is no model that will give you LTE data on TMobile in your city. The Z30 would then still work as a 4G phone which is what I get here in Portland. Again, not as fast for data downloads if not on wifi but still awesome! Try calling TMobile or speaking with one of their reps to see if they know the operating band for LTE in your city. I hope this helps.

Yes very helpful thank you. And I will call T-Mobile. Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by Z50

The leap has far more LTE bands than the Z30. And yes, it has band 2 LTE.
Here is the frequency information directly from BlackBerry's website:
North America
FD-LTE: 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 13, 17 (2100/1900/AWS/850/2600/700 MHz)
HSPA+ 1, 2, 4, 5/6 (2100/1900/AWS/850 MHz)
Dual Carrier 42 HSPA support
Quad Band GSM/GPRS/EDGE 2, 3, 5, 8 (1900,1800,850,900 MHz)

Thank you Z50, I have a decision to make I guess. I appreciate your input.

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