[mnc76]

We here on CB have noted the poor support and care for BB10 products from carriers for a long time (remember the stories of Z10's sitting in storage at some carrier stores on BB10 launch day?).

It should come as no surprise that Windows Phone, another fledging competitor to the iOS / Android duopoly is apparently faring no better.

How can any new mobile OS gain traction?

As Ed Bott of ZDNet says in his article (titled: "Why have I given up on Windows Phone? Blame Verizon") :

"If the problems with Windows Phone as a platform were as simple as Microsoft getting their product strategy together, it would probably be easy to fix. But that focus ignores the real problem.

This isn't an equal partnership between Microsoft and U.S. mobile carriers, except perhaps in the most technical sense.

Thanks to Microsoft's minuscule market share (small single-digit percentages in the U.S.), the carriers have almost no interest in collaborating with it on mobile devices. And Microsoft has almost no leverage when negotiating with carriers."

Slow OS updates :

"In the official announcement of [the WP 8.1] release, Microsoft proudly listed features that would be coming to the Lumia Icon "in the coming weeks."

That was five months ago. And yet, if you are a Verizon customer who owns a Lumia Icon today, you are probably still running the Windows Phone 8.0 release."

?Why have I given up on Windows Phone? Blame Verizon | ZDNet

This article should sound VERY familiar to BB10 users.

*Note* : The snippets above are not the whole article.

Posted from my awesome White Z30

[TGR1]

We here on CB have noted the poor support and care for BB10 products from carriers for a long time (remember the stories of Z10's sitting in storage at some carrier stores on BB10 launch day?).

It should come as no surprise that Windows Phone, another fledging competitor to the iOS / Android duopoly is apparently faring no better.

How can any new mobile OS gain traction?

As Ed Bott of ZDNet says in his article (titled: "Why have I given up on Windows Phone? Blame Verizon") :

"If the problems with Windows Phone as a platform were as simple as Microsoft getting their product strategy together, it would probably be easy to fix. But that focus ignores the real problem.

This isn't an equal partnership between Microsoft and U.S. mobile carriers, except perhaps in the most technical sense.

Thanks to Microsoft's minuscule market share (small single-digit percentages in the U.S.), the carriers have almost no interest in collaborating with it on mobile devices. And Microsoft has almost no leverage when negotiating with carriers."

Slow OS updates :

"In the official announcement of [the WP 8.1] release, Microsoft proudly listed features that would be coming to the Lumia Icon "in the coming weeks."

That was five months ago. And yet, if you are a Verizon customer who owns a Lumia Icon today, you are probably still running the Windows Phone 8.0 release."

?Why have I given up on Windows Phone? Blame Verizon | ZDNet

This article should sound VERY familiar to BB10 users.

Posted from my awesome White Z30

Doesn't MS push out their own updates?

I do find it puzzling how difficult MS is finding it to grab some kind of stickiness for its mobile offerings. They have considerable historical success in smartphones, the few Lumia users I know really like them, the hardware is quite nice, and they are generally price competitive. So what gives?

[hoonigan99]

I think a big problem with WP is that it's so similar to Windows 8, which most people still do not like. I found using a WP (helping a family member with theirs) was kind of strange to navigate and the OS looks so cluttered.

Seeing Windows now struggling with carriers could be a good sign for the future though. We may see a shift towards direct to consumer sales (like BlackBerry is now pushing with Shop BlackBerry) which could be the path to success in the future as people are becoming more reliant on reading reviews, watching youtube demos/reviews etc. The biggest problem with this is not being able to physically test the devices, and after sale support, which could be remedied in a number of ways, with the best strategy likely being a warranty replacement route and building on relationships with retailers like Best Buy and Futureshop, leaving the carriers alone.

Could this signal a need for BlackBerry and WP to forge a partnership, that would certainly strengthen both positions with BlackBerry taking the lead on Enterprise/Professional devices (with windows apps support, and dual development - similar to the IBM/Apple partnership) and the Nokia line focusing on consumers (possibly integrating some BlackBerry features) it could be an interesting future if this were to develop

BB for Life

[eddy_berry]

Doesn't MS push out their own updates?

I do find it puzzling how difficult MS is finding it to grab some kind of stickiness for its mobile offerings. They have considerable historical success in smartphones, the few Lumia users I know really like them, the hardware is quite nice, and they are generally price competitive. So what gives?

MS updates are carrier dependant last I checked. You could subscribe (pay) to get developer versions though.

Posted via CB10

[raino]

The situation is a bit different though because MS can afford to buy the shelf space even if the lovely store reps don't push the devices. But this should open a few eyes as to how the carriers are all about the monnnay. So the next time TMO or someone else is worshiped, just keep that in mind, people.

[mnc76]

Doesn't MS push out their own updates?

From the article :

"The good news for smartphone enthusiasts is that Microsoft figured out a way to push OS updates out independently of carriers, using its Preview for Developers app. If you're willing to color outside the lines, you can get Microsoft to deliver the latest Windows Phone release to you without having to wait.

The bad news is that carriers control the firmware updates for devices. And without the matching firmware, some of those OS updates don't work properly."

Posted from my awesome White Z30

[jonty12]

I've been using a Lumia 928 on Verizon for the past 10 days or so. Experimenting.
1. Updates.
I have the latest developer preview of 8.1 (you can get it without paying), and it's good, but it's not a complete update. Because it's not a firmware update, things like the Bluetooth improvements are not available.

2. Verizon support...
... is terrible. Very reminiscent of BB support. Much like the Z30 disappeared for a while, the Lumia Icon (the latest and greatest) is gone from VZ after only 10 months. The 822 and 928 are still available. There is no sign at all of the Cyan update (the last carrier in the World to not have the update) and in fact they took a step back last week (from in testing, to under development).

3. WP 8.1 itself.
If it wasn't for the lack of apps (and in this case no Android substitutes) and lack of business features that are baked into BB I would like this phone. I do really like the Live Tiles, and the camera is great. That being said, I'm switching back to my Z30 pretty soon because of the Hub, battery, and missing business centric features.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Carrier's want to sell PLANS, the don't really care about devices or updating those devices.

So everyone other than Apple has problem getting OS updates out to older devices. I have seen people with 12 - 24 month old Android Devices that are WAY behind what Google is pushing out to newer devices. Main reasons are either the OEM's haven't updated their "custom" versions, or most likely the Carrier's don't deem the updates worth the "trouble" of them pushing them out, as every update cost them support time because of customer problems with the update process or the changes to the OS.

So when it comes to updates, BlackBerry, Microsoft and Google are all in the same boat - which leaves users with device that may have fixes for performance issue available, but they'll never know about them.

But Windows Phone problems have been Apps and overcoming a tarnished Brand. Even now some think that because WP didn't have Instagram at one time, that it still doesn't. It's VERY had to erase the negative impressions that can be created when you fall so far behind. Microsoft has spent a LOT of money in marketing and in subsiding hardware, trying to get their products out there. Problem is that their ecosystem is just not mature enough; but with time, more money and them pushing developers they may eventually overcome their problems.

In the future I see a point where there is more separation between Carriers and hardware. You will see more direct to customer interaction from OEM's and more updates direct from the OS provider....

[irweezyy]

Carrier's want to sell PLANS, the don't really care about devices or updating those devices.

So everyone other than Apple has problem getting OS updates out to older devices. I have seen people with 12 - 24 month old Android Devices that are WAY behind what Google is pushing out to newer devices. Main reasons are either the OEM's haven't updated their "custom" versions, or most likely the Carrier's don't deem the updates worth the "trouble" of them pushing them out, as every update cost them support time because of customer problems with the update process or the changes to the OS.

So when it comes to updates, BlackBerry, Microsoft and Google are all in the same boat - which leaves users with device that may have fixes for performance issue available, but they'll never know about them.

But Windows Phone problems have been Apps and overcoming a tarnished Brand. Even now some think that because WP didn't have Instagram at one time, that it still doesn't. It's VERY had to erase the negative impressions that can be created when you fall so far behind. Microsoft has spent a LOT of money in marketing and in subsiding hardware, trying to get their products out there. Problem is that their ecosystem is just not mature enough; but with time, more money and them pushing developers they may eventually overcome their problems.

In the future I see a point where there is more separation between Carriers and hardware. You will see more direct to customer interaction from OEM's and more updates direct from the OS provider....

Been saying for years that we will see a greater separation over time between hardware and Carriers! It only makes sense. Especially now that Carriers are structuring device subsidy based on phone plan price. I think the next shift will be separating device cost and plan cost on your monthly invoice.

Posted via CB10

[VeryBumpy]

Yup, I feel for the WP people. I bought my mother a WP and I like it a lot. Has a very nice UI for a slab. If I didn't own a BB I would own a WP instead as my 2nd choice.

[TGR1]

Oh wow, Tom Warren at the Verge, who has been a very dedicated Windows Phone fan, has also largely abandoned the platform. Those are two pretty high profile enthusiast losses.

[raino]

In the future I see a point where there is more separation between Carriers and hardware. You will see more direct to customer interaction from OEM's and more updates direct from the OS provider....

(I assume you're talking about North American carriers where this is the largest headache.)

I'm a bit skeptical that the separation will happen for a few reasons:

1. Exclusives. We may hate on them, but they will still continue to happen.

2. Carrier like control, so they have put in hooks into their devices. Examples:
2a. CDMA clearance/whitelisting for Sprint and Verizon (hopefully this goes away when they move to all-LTE)
2b. VoLTE. Are carriers going to open it up to all capable handsets, regardless of where they may have been purchased from?
2c. WiFi calling on TMO--highly proprietary
2d. AT&T and PMA. AT&T has been pushing this wireless charging standard...hard.
2e. Isis/Softcard: this service works only on phones branded to SIM card's respective carrier. IOW, you can't buy the factory unlocked, or even the TMO model of an AT&T phone, put in an AT&T Isis SIM and make it work, even though TMO is also a participant in Isis, and the OEM is the same across the board.

3. OEMs may not be in the position to finance zero down purchases that carriers do.

[cottonakin]

But Windows Phone problems have been Apps and overcoming a tarnished Brand. Even now some think that because WP didn't have Instagram at one time, that it still doesn't. It's VERY had to erase the negative impressions that can be created when you fall so far behind. Microsoft has spent a LOT of money in marketing and in subsiding hardware, trying to get their products out there. Problem is that their ecosystem is just not mature enough; but with time, more money and them pushing developers they may eventually overcome their problems.

Thinking your observation could also apply to BlackBerry, I substituted BlackBerry everywhere you had Windows Phone...

"But BlackBerry's problems have been Apps and overcoming a tarnished Brand. Even now some think that because BlackBerry didn't have Instagram at one time, that it still doesn't. It's VERY had to erase the negative impressions that can be created when you fall so far behind. BlackBerry has spent a LOT of money in marketing and in subsiding hardware, trying to get their products out there. Problem is that their ecosystem is just not mature enough; but with time, more money and them pushing developers they may eventually overcome their problems."

It doesn't work 100% (especially the marketing part) but still eerily similar...

[hoonigan99]

It is truly disappointing that apps have had such a significant effect on consumer perspective/purchase decisions.

It was nice back in the day when your phone (if a good one, ie. BlackBerry) just had all the features you wanted and needed, rather than needing an app store with a million choices.

When will the masses realize that all these games and social media trends are a waste of time, in both discovery and use. I'm sure I'm not the only one who downloads a game and uses it once or twice, only to leave it alone for months until it's eventually deleted or hidden into a folder.

The competition between competing apps and platforms for productivity apps or things like netflix is harming the end consumer because we can't have everything we want. We need to use three different apps (and subscriptions) to access all the content we want. The only company succeeding in this respect is Apple, because of itunes, but that can become very expensive too if you have a wide variety of tastes.

It's too bad these capitalistic approaches will never give consumers what they truly want, a choice of any style/type/brand of device and the ability to access any and all services.

BB for Life

[Tre Lawrence]

It is truly disappointing that apps have had such a significant effect on consumer perspective/purchase decisions.

It was nice back in the day when your phone (if a good one, ie. BlackBerry) just had all the features you wanted and needed, rather than needing an app store with a million choices.

When will the masses realize that all these games and social media trends are a waste of time, in both discovery and use. I'm sure I'm not the only one who downloads a game and uses it once or twice, only to leave it alone for months until it's eventually deleted or hidden into a folder.

The competition between competing apps and platforms for productivity apps or things like netflix is harming the end consumer because we can't have everything we want. We need to use three different apps (and subscriptions) to access all the content we want. The only company succeeding in this respect is Apple, because of itunes, but that can become very expensive too if you have a wide variety of tastes.

It's too bad these capitalistic approaches will never give consumers what they truly want, a choice of any style/type/brand of device and the ability to access any and all services.

BB for Life

But there's the rub: in today's business world, no one phone can do it all for everyone.

In some ways, the dependence on apps "freed" device makers. Now, consumers can customize their experiences; the OS designers need not try to jam devices with tons of built-in utilities people may or may not need.

I do agree that content sources need to be streamlined. Hopefully, services like Disney Movies Anywhere (that unifies iTunes and Google Play) become more of the norm.

[Soulstream]

Well WP has more official big-name apps than BB in their store. BB "cheated" their way out of this by allowing Android apps to be installed. The problem is that even thogh some big-name apps are in the store, they are lacking behind in features to their Android/iOS counterparts.

Also Microsoft has a very nice services ecosystem (onenote, one drive, bing etc) that rival those of google's any day of the week (unlike BB who has not such services ecosystem).

Also when recommending low-end phones that run very well the Lumia 520 always comes up (along with the Moto G). The problem with WP is that (like Android) most of their phones are low-mid end phones where margins aren't really that big.

WP has so far secured the 3rd ecosystem spot, even though it so so very far behind from the big 2.

[Tre Lawrence]

Well WP has more official big-name apps than BB in their store. BB "cheated" their way out of this by allowing Android apps to be installed. The problem is that even thogh some big-name apps are in the store, they are lacking behind in features to their Android/iOS counterparts.

Also Microsoft has a very nice services ecosystem (onenote, one drive, bing etc) that rival those of google's any day of the week (unlike BB who has not such services ecosystem).

Also when recommending low-end phones that run very well the Lumia 520 always comes up (along with the Moto G). The problem with WP is that (like Android) most of their phones are low-mid end phones where margins aren't really that big.

WP has so far secured the 3rd ecosystem spot, even though it so so very far behind from the big 2.

I think resisting (so far) non-native development is a plus for WP8. It does have a decent ecosystem core; I think MSFT just have to tie them in better.

But I do think the future is bright, even though WP8 is lagging behind. MSFT needs to be patient and execute, and it will be fine in the mobile space.

[Soulstream]

I think resisting (so far) non-native development is a plus for WP8. It does have a decent ecosystem core; I think MSFT just have to tie them in better.

But I do think the future is bright, even though WP8 is lagging behind. MSFT needs to be patient and execute, and it will be fine in the mobile space.

Well, even they have BB as an example of what happens even if you allow another platform's apps to be installed on your devices: almost nothing. It will not "magically" increase their sales numbers.

[mnc76]

Well, even they have BB as an example of what happens even if you allow another platform's apps to be installed on your devices: almost nothing. It will not "magically" increase their sales numbers.

Actually, BlackBerry's marketshare in the US has increased in the last two consecutive quarters. And this is even as the size of the whole market has grown. Also, based on BlackBerry's numbers, the majority (about 70%) of new phones sold have been BB10 phones (not legacy BB7 or older models).

I have absolutely no idea if Android compatibility has had anything to do with this though.

[VeryBumpy]

WP8 does have a decent ecosystem core.

This is a strong draw for WP. Their Office suit continuity amongst all the hardware platforms is a great business or working persons benefit.

I found it odd Microsoft caved and made Office apps for iPhone and Android. What happened to exclusivity of programs to promote hardware sales, like game consoles?

[trsbbs]

Carriers sell what makes them money. You build something folks don't want, like or need and guess what? Sales people will not push it.
They sell what the is hot and sells well.

Why should they beg folks to but something that is unpopular?

Folks really need to get real.

BlackBerry hates America!

[Soulstream]

This is a strong draw for WP. Their Office suit continuity amongst all the hardware platforms is a great business or working persons benefit.

I found it odd Microsoft caved and made Office apps for iPhone and Android. What happened to exclusivity of programs to promote hardware sales, like game consoles?

It's not odd. If they want to sell mobile office subscriptions it would have been a very bad decision to not target 90% of the market space. It's like BB when they decided to make BBM cross-platform (you go where the numbers are).

[Tre Lawrence]

This is a strong draw for WP. Their Office suit continuity amongst all the hardware platforms is a great business or working persons benefit.

I found it odd Microsoft caved and made Office apps for iPhone and Android. What happened to exclusivity of programs to promote hardware sales, like game consoles?

I think like BBRY with BBM (and Google with its services), MSFT simple realized it makes more sense to pull more people in.

If the endgame is more subscribers, keeping services in one's backyard doesn't help.

[Tre Lawrence]

It's not odd. If they want to sell mobile office subscriptions it would have been a very bad decision to not target 90% of the market space. It's like BB when they decided to make BBM cross-platform (you go where the numbers are).

Said much more eloquently than I.

[lactose]

Could this signal a need for BlackBerry and WP to forge a partnership,
BB for Life

No no no no no no no.

A deal with MS never ends well. I should know, I spent a good bit of time traveling to those partners, with hat in hand, apologizing and acting like the company had a shred of interest in the customer's success. They have a lot of money, and buy their way into markets. But do some digging, talk to their partners. I won't mention names here. Sometimes the management culture of a company gets really sick. They are a marketing company that happens to deal in technology. Of course this is all stuff anyone who has worked in IT/software already knows.