04-02-12 06:38 PM
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  1. cdiaman08's Avatar
    As a faithful BB user for 8 years now, I'm staring to see some unfortunate parallels between the BB phone and other superior products that eventually failed. Although BB, IMHO, is a superior product it will not last because of RIM's reluctance to make serious gains in the consumer market.

    Lets look back in history

    1. Beta vs vhs - Beta was technologically better, vhs marketed better. vhs won

    2. os2 warp vs windows 3.0 - os2 warp was a bulletproof 64 bit os far better than windows 3.0 (when did windows finally introduce a 64 bit os?). Windows won because IBM concentrated on the "enterprise" market and MS concentrated on getting their OS pre-installed on home PC's.

    3. Lotus suite vs microsoft office - To this day people that worked in offices that had the lotus suite will swear by it. How many here have actually heard of lotus suite? It was faster, more powerful, easier to use and technologically better the MS office. Their downfall - concentrate on the "enterprise" market. Winner MS Office.

    There are so many examples of superior products not making the right gains in the consumer market that inferior products eventually win out. This is whats happened to RIM. Despite this though some recent events have changed my outlook for RIM and why I'm predicting the BB10 release will be a huge disappointment.

    1. RIM is still towing the party line on concentrating on the business market. Clearly a failing strategy considering that employees, if given a choice to trade in the BB and use their own phone will overwhelmingly use their non-BB phone (android or iOS). As for the PB, well all apple has to do is release a 7 inch iPad and kiss the PB goodbye. I know, the PB is superior. That's not the point. The inferior products are winning!

    2. Did you see the ridiculous frenzy over the new iPad. Unbelievable. A new product with 2 new features that the general user doesn't care about and millions of copies sold in the first few days! It doesn't make sense. The new retina display only really matters if you are a graphics artist or extreme technophile and I just don't see many people wanting to get a separate $30-$40 a month data plan for the iPad when they probably have one on their phone - so the LTE was really useless as well.
    Those lineups should have bee to purchase the discounted iPad2's, that's where the real deal was!

    All this coupled with the disappointing earning call is making RIM look like the chrysler of the mobile industry. And as with chrysler, I think we'll see CEO after CEO and Owner after Owner trying to turn something around that missed its mark a few years ago.

    BB10 will not turn RIM's fortune around. They are counting on this as the bandaid solution, which does not work as history tells us. RIM needs a new corporate strategy to develop a new product not the other way around.
    04-01-12 09:09 AM
  2. anthogag's Avatar
    RIM has Ex. Fusion for BYOD and this also means BB10 phones will compete with everyone...i.e. BB10 phones will be excellent in any market, people will choose BB10 because it's better

    Many iPad owners need more stimulus, hence the kerfuffle
    04-01-12 09:23 AM
  3. axllebeer's Avatar
    I agree with a lot of your points here. (Maybe even all of them.) I really never understood why it is that other platforms keep getting bigger and bigger yet BlackBerry and RIM continue to shrink in the US. I've tried the others and can't stand them. There are media related services that other platforms offer but a BlackBerry wasn't designed for those things. They should be on the PlayBook however which I have always preferred to the iPad (iOS, still hating it). Most BlackBerrys have a more business feel to them and I personally like it for my work and business life.

    RIM needs to focus just as much on the consumer market as it does the Enterprise. This is absolutely correct. People preferring their personal phones for work use and forgoing the BlackBerry. Hey it happens, and there's the error in thinking on RIM's part. If you want to focus on enterprise that's fine. But the consumer market is where that "other" phone came from that walked in and caused another BlackBerry to sit lonely on the shelf. People aren't bringing BlackBerry's from home and giving up an enterprise iPhone. (Although I would)

    As far as BB10 goes, I'm looking forward to it to help turn RIM around at least somewhat. I plan to keep going with my Bold 9930 till it's dead. I got it because I love the BlackBerry experience as it is today, and I want to hold onto it as long as possible.

    By the way, very possibly the best post I've ever read by a newbie.
    Last edited by axllebeer; 04-01-12 at 09:34 AM.
    Morty2264 likes this.
    04-01-12 09:31 AM
  4. Searzy's Avatar
    Totally agree with you.

    I've SCREAMED in a number of posts that RIM is failing to grasp simple marketing concepts!
    madman0141 likes this.
    04-01-12 10:50 AM
  5. sam_b77's Avatar
    And the thing is that the new BB7 devices aren't duds in the multimedia department. My cousin is visiting from the US and he has the 4S and is an Apple fan. He was showing me the smoothness of scrolling of thumbnails and icons on his 4S and I showed him my 9900 and made him try that. And he agreed that the scrolling, pictures handling etc is on part.

    As a matter of fact he disliked the DROID RAZR scrolling and found it glitch. But the BB is just not selling. Huge marketing slip up at RIM. People just don't know what has changed.

    I think a lot of people are holding on to some outdated berrys and RIM needs to work with the carriers to work out a sweet upgrade deal to BBOS7 for their customers who have old devices. Even if they take a hit on profit at least it'll get the word out that BBs are capable of holding their own on Internet and multimedia and still have the best emailing in the business.
    04-01-12 12:37 PM
  6. yamezsr's Avatar
    I honestly believe there is a consipracy going on! Android is trying to take control of the market. I have had a playbook from day 1 and have tired out just about every tab out right now and nothing comes close to the playbook. Consumers arguments are Netflix, Hulu, and Skype, thats why I say there is a conspiracy going on in the first place. Who blocks access to Playbook users only, with the excuse, "We want subscribed user access", I have both Netflix and Hulu accounts yes Hulu premium! The the Kindle Fire comes out and you can watch stuff on it, but this stuff has actually been blocked on purpose from the Playbook! The real issue is there's a new bully in town and his name is Android (hemroid)---- spelled to fit the point! ) someone's pulling invisible strings.

    I read places like Best Buy would no longer be carrying the Playbook. I just brought a second one from Best Buy this year. So many rumors floating around. I just think someone is hating on rim bad. Some say rim has failed, but failed who? Certainly not me, because while it cannot stream netflix or hulu, it can stream , and crackle proves this.

    And you don't have to blackberry phone to operate it. I do have a torch but even without it its a lot of useful things I can do with a stand alone pb. Like edit and papers using word, power point and excel. Me having a blackberry phone is a plus because while the tablet is only wifi bridge allows me to have a signal where ever I go. Lets see and wifi only android based tablet do that! Ive been out with friends no wifi availiable and there like hey how come my iPad can't connect! y'all need to catch up!
    berrydroidapple likes this.
    04-01-12 12:43 PM
  7. MartyMcfly's Avatar
    I honestly believe there is a consipracy going on! Android is trying to take control of the market. I have had a playbook from day 1 and have tired out just about every tab out right now and nothing comes close to the playbook. Consumers arguments are Netflix, Hulu, and Skype, thats why I say there is a conspiracy going on in the first place. Who blocks access to Playbook users only, with the excuse, "We want subscribed user access", I have both Netflix and Hulu accounts yes Hulu premium! The the Kindle Fire comes out and you can watch stuff on it, but this stuff has actually been blocked on purpose from the Playbook! The real issue is there's a new bully in town and his name is Android (hemroid)---- spelled to fit the point! ) someone's pulling invisible strings.

    I read places like Best Buy would no longer be carrying the Playbook. I just brought a second one from Best Buy this year. So many rumors floating around. I just think someone is hating on rim bad. Some say rim has failed, but failed who? Certainly not me, because while it cannot stream netflix or hulu, it can stream , and crackle proves this.

    And you don't have to blackberry phone to operate it. I do have a torch but even without it its a lot of useful things I can do with a stand alone pb. Like edit and papers using word, power point and excel. Me having a blackberry phone is a plus because while the tablet is only wifi bridge allows me to have a signal where ever I go. Lets see and wifi only android based tablet do that! Ive been out with friends no wifi availiable and there like hey how come my iPad can't connect! y'all need to catch up!
    lol...no conspiracies...The blackberry brand isn't popular in the NA market...Hopefully BB10 can change that...
    04-01-12 01:39 PM
  8. smoothrunnings's Avatar
    OS2 Warp's engine was all coded by Microsoft. IBM had to pay Microsoft a huge lump sum each year for licensing fees which cost too much in the as IBM couldn't sell enough OS2 Warp to make it worth while for them.

    So Microsoft HELPED IBM by making an upgrade OS2 to Windows. The upgrade used some of the coded files of OS as those files at the time were used in Windows.

    The only way IBM would have gotten out of this is to re-write OS2 from scratch, which would have set them back years in R&D and in billions.

    I think RIM should have cleaned up it house years ago by replacing its higher management staff with newer people who could get RIM a fresher start. Now its a bit late for that as they risk collapse if one or many of their big stock holders decides to pull out drop their stocks on the market. This exact thing happen to Commodore years ago and collapse in a day or two.

    It good to see the new CEO confessing up to the share holders by telling them truth, that's not easy to do I am sure he must have had nightmares leading up to the day. At least the share holders know now what RIM is doing to try to resolve the issue, and it was nice to see him to put part of the blame on the bad economy in the USA. But I am surprised all those poor folk in the USA who took their saved up pennies and bought the iPhone 4s or iPAD3. I guess they can do without food for a few months eh?

    A.
    Last edited by smoothrunnings; 04-01-12 at 02:00 PM.
    ambarmetta and Tkarps like this.
    04-01-12 01:53 PM
  9. Vindicators's Avatar
    Who blocks access to Playbook users only
    Only = HP Touchpad, Google TV and even Android phone (before they got the official app), right?

    Seems legit.
    04-01-12 02:27 PM
  10. Morty2264's Avatar
    I agree that RIM is not as on par economically speaking with other mobile markets; but I personally think it also has a lot to do with their advertising approach. I love BlackBerry and have only been using one for under a year; yet I watch their ads and think that they should do something more to show everyone - other phone users and potential customers - the advantages of the phone.

    In another post in another topic, I discussed how the "We need tools, not toys" slogan is inappropriate. Stating subjectively that BlackBerry is a "tool" whereas every other smartphone (Android, iPhone) is a "toy" and therefore inferior is not a good marketing strategy. It makes RIM look slightly childish by trying to "badmouth" the other brands of smartphone products. Don't get me wrong, I love RIM - so I think they must change their advertising campaign/personnel so they can win more audience members and potential customers. Show what the BlackBerry can do and its features (fast browsing, data compression, qwerty keyboard and/or touch depending on the device, colour LED, customizable sound profiles, hardware) instead of making slogans that belittle the competition. Or work with the competition and point out the things BlackBerry can do that other products can, as well.

    Either way, I liked the OP's post - it had very good points. I'm sure BB10 will get more customers and curious people checking out the new and very much anticipated product.
    app_Developer and ambarmetta like this.
    04-01-12 02:38 PM
  11. Economist101's Avatar
    1. Beta vs vhs - Beta was technologically better, vhs marketed better. vhs won
    Incomplete. The VHS advantage was on both price and content. With those advantages, the "marketing" was easy: "VHS is cheaper and has more content." Generally, being cheaper while offering more options is a winning combination.
    Tkarps and Morty2264 like this.
    04-01-12 02:45 PM
  12. Tkarps's Avatar
    Incomplete. The VHS advantage was on both price and content. With those advantages, the "marketing" was easy: "VHS is cheaper and has more content." Generally, being cheaper while offering more options is a winning combination.
    I believe the porn industry had a lot to do with this battle. It was the same thing with HD DVD and Blu-ray.

    Tim
    ambarmetta likes this.
    04-01-12 03:06 PM
  13. Tkarps's Avatar
    I honestly believe there is a consipracy going on! Android is trying to take control of the market. I have had a playbook from day 1 and have tired out just about every tab out right now and nothing comes close to the playbook. Consumers arguments are Netflix, Hulu, and Skype, thats why I say there is a conspiracy going on in the first place. Who blocks access to Playbook users only, with the excuse, "We want subscribed user access", I have both Netflix and Hulu accounts yes Hulu premium! The the Kindle Fire comes out and you can watch stuff on it, but this stuff has actually been blocked on purpose from the Playbook! The real issue is there's a new bully in town and his name is Android (hemroid)---- spelled to fit the point! ) someone's pulling invisible strings.

    I read places like Best Buy would no longer be carrying the Playbook. I just brought a second one from Best Buy this year. So many rumors floating around. I just think someone is hating on rim bad. Some say rim has failed, but failed who? Certainly not me, because while it cannot stream netflix or hulu, it can stream , and crackle proves this.

    And you don't have to blackberry phone to operate it. I do have a torch but even without it its a lot of useful things I can do with a stand alone pb. Like edit and papers using word, power point and excel. Me having a blackberry phone is a plus because while the tablet is only wifi bridge allows me to have a signal where ever I go. Lets see and wifi only android based tablet do that! Ive been out with friends no wifi availiable and there like hey how come my iPad can't connect! y'all need to catch up!
    Although i don't think it's a conspiracy i do think there is some US protectionism going on. Number of US companies leaving Canada lately. I don't believe the costs have changed but it is politically motivated. This has nothing to do with RIM and more to do with the state of the economy globally IMO.

    I read an article on crackberry about a hardened android kernel being developed by US military. Why would you not start with the most secure platform and work from there or at least work with a company that has security as it's core feature. I think in the current economical environment, although maybe not the smartest and most economical solution, it makes sense, both in a marketing and political point of view.

    Iphone 4s and ipad 3 are just selling based on past branding alone. You have to hand it to Apple, the only company i know in the last decade that has managed to take something like the ipod and recreate it at least 7 times under a different name and sell it to people as a brand new "innovative" product.

    Tim
    04-01-12 03:29 PM
  14. Tkarps's Avatar
    OS2 Warp's engine was all coded by Microsoft. IBM had to pay Microsoft a huge lump sum each year for licensing fees which cost too much in the as IBM couldn't sell enough OS2 Warp to make it worth while for them.

    So Microsoft HELPED IBM by making an upgrade OS2 to Windows. The upgrade used some of the coded files of OS as those files at the time were used in Windows.

    The only way IBM would have gotten out of this is to re-write OS2 from scratch, which would have set them back years in R&D and in billions.

    A.
    Plus, i don't think anyone would argue that the best thing IBM did was exit the pc world years before it's margins completely collapsed. Their focus now is business solutions and this probably saved them from what RIM is experiencing now. Not an expert in the mobile industry but if possible and it allows for enough revenue RIM should focus on business services like IBM did years ago.

    Tim
    04-01-12 03:56 PM
  15. CairnsRock's Avatar
    Incomplete. The VHS advantage was on both price and content. With those advantages, the "marketing" was easy: "VHS is cheaper and has more content." Generally, being cheaper while offering more options is a winning combination.
    Also the form factor. VHS was much smaller.
    04-01-12 04:36 PM
  16. diapers's Avatar
    BB is not a superior product. It hasn't been since the iPhone came out. This has always been RIMs biggest problem, inability to see when they were behind. They lied to themselves for years about how superior their products were, I remember buying a storm2 after the iphone came out. I loved it yet it had many problems, slow browser, random restarts, took forever to reboot etc but all of these were trivial issues. Yet RIM didn't care they lagged behind while others overtook them with browser speed, then even has better displays and more powerful phones from competitors were flooding the market RIM was still creating "clones" of their existing phones. Their new torch phone had worse specs, no one in their right mind would spend 600$ on a phone that's supposed to last for 3 years with those kinds of specs. They didn't care and did not listen, their offerings were abysmally weak, everyone knew this except RIM and RIM loyalists.

    A lot of us bailed a long time ago, how come it was so clear to many of us yet but not to RIM? It baffles me to this day. RIM superior product? Keep telling yourself that.
    04-01-12 04:52 PM
  17. Economist101's Avatar
    Also the form factor. VHS was much smaller.
    No, VHS wasn't smaller. Beta units were typically smaller than VHS units, in part because Beta was built around a smaller cassette:

    Beta: 150mm x 96 x 25

    VHS: 187mm x 103 x 25

    You may be thinking of VHS-C, which included a 92mm x 58 x 20 cassette, but VHS-C was about making VHS camcorders smaller, and didn't represent a shift for the format.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-01-12 04:53 PM
  18. Economist101's Avatar
    RIM superior product? Keep telling yourself that.
    One of the issues I have with the OP's argument is the suggestion that the market is somehow moving towards a product which is both inferior and more expensive. None of the OP's examples duplicate his claim in this regard, as he/she doesn't offer an example of an inferior yet more expensive product that wins a battle against a superior, less expensive product. VHS was less expensive than Beta. Windows PCs were less expensive than Macs. The Nintendo Entertainment System was less expensive than the Sega Master System. Here we have the iPad surging ahead in sales, despite being considerably more expensive than the PlayBook and other similar devices. Put simply, if the OP is correct, the PlayBook and other tablets are perhaps the first products in the history of the world to be both superior to, and less expensive than, the market leader, yet still are outsold by a huge (and widening) margin.
    Morty2264 and axllebeer like this.
    04-01-12 05:01 PM
  19. bobauckland's Avatar
    BB is not a superior product. It hasn't been since the iPhone came out. This has always been RIMs biggest problem, inability to see when they were behind. They lied to themselves for years about how superior their products were, I remember buying a storm2 after the iphone came out. I loved it yet it had many problems, slow browser, random restarts, took forever to reboot etc but all of these were trivial issues. Yet RIM didn't care they lagged behind while others overtook them with browser speed, then even has better displays and more powerful phones from competitors were flooding the market RIM was still creating "clones" of their existing phones. Their new torch phone had worse specs, no one in their right mind would spend 600$ on a phone that's supposed to last for 3 years with those kinds of specs. They didn't care and did not listen, their offerings were abysmally weak, everyone knew this except RIM and RIM loyalists.

    A lot of us bailed a long time ago, how come it was so clear to many of us yet but not to RIM? It baffles me to this day. RIM superior product? Keep telling yourself that.
    If the iPhone is superior in every way then its push email must be on par right?
    Security?
    How about customisable LED notifications?
    What about the keyboard, they've surely got a physical keyboard on them for people who want that right?
    What about customisable sounds and vibrations for different email accounts?

    If the iPhone hasn't yet been able to nail the above, then saying its definitely a superior product is pretty silly, particularly on a BlackBerry fan site.
    Superior in some ways, Ill give you that.
    Definitely inferior in others.
    Sadly instead of building on their successes and including some of the successes from Apple, RIM and Apple both seem intent on pushing their version of better as the only choice. Neither one is definitely better than the other at the moment, not to everyone.
    04-01-12 05:43 PM
  20. madman0141's Avatar
    Totally agree with you.

    I've SCREAMED in a number of posts that RIM is failing to grasp simple marketing concepts!
    Regardless of whether you think Apple is a superior product or RIM is better it is about what the public is told through marketing. The more you show the consumer ads about the product they will normally buy it unless it's a Yugo. This is true everywhere and crosses borders and nationalities.
    Morty2264 likes this.
    04-01-12 05:45 PM
  21. diapers's Avatar
    If the iPhone is superior in every way then its push email must be on par right?
    Security?
    How about customisable LED notifications?
    What about the keyboard, they've surely got a physical keyboard on them for people who want that right?
    What about customisable sounds and vibrations for different email accounts?

    If the iPhone hasn't yet been able to nail the above, then saying its definitely a superior product is pretty silly, particularly on a BlackBerry fan site.
    Superior in some ways, Ill give you that.
    Definitely inferior in others.
    Sadly instead of building on their successes and including some of the successes from Apple, RIM and Apple both seem intent on pushing their version of better as the only choice. Neither one is definitely better than the other at the moment, not to everyone.
    I said "superior product", not superior in every way. People who are buying new phones look at everything. Hardware, apps, design, support, longevity etc. RIM can't win on email and LED alone. That's what they thought 3 years ago and current state of affairs have proved them wrong. Their hardware is behind, their software is behind and their competitors have good enough offerings of their biggest strength.

    Remember that around the same period Microsoft and Nokia found themselves in the same hole. The iphone had come out, andriod was surging and they had winmo and symbian offerings. 3 years later completely new phone design with hardware to compete. Very different story for RIM
    Last edited by diapers; 04-01-12 at 08:27 PM.
    fernandez21 likes this.
    04-01-12 08:24 PM
  22. axllebeer's Avatar
    No, VHS wasn't smaller. Beta units were typically smaller than VHS units, in part because Beta was built around a smaller cassette:

    Beta: 150mm x 96 x 25

    VHS: 187mm x 103 x 25

    You may be thinking of VHS-C, which included a 92mm x 58 x 20 cassette, but VHS-C was about making VHS camcorders smaller, and didn't represent a shift for the format.
    I was about to say that same thing. Not sure why they thought beta tapes or machines were bigger. Tapes were all smaller from my memory, as were the beta machines. Oh well, could've just been an honest mistake.
    04-01-12 11:03 PM
  23. FunktasticLucky's Avatar
    I was about to say that same thing. Not sure why they thought beta tapes or machines were bigger. Tapes were all smaller from my memory, as were the beta machines. Oh well, could've just been an honest mistake.
    My Father bought a beta player. He thought it was going to make it for it's superior picture quality. I was just a wee little boy at the time(born in 84), but I do remember it being smaller than VHS.

    As for the debate going on about superior? I love how integrated everything is on BB. I can easily send anything I want to anywhere on my torch. I can swap between programs and everything quickly. This has always been a marketing issue. I really don't understand why RIM is not marketing. They need to get a marketing firm together to start pushing out commercials. Flood the market with them and show off the cool that it does. Obviously BB10 will be more on par with apps but I would really like to know what the other phones have over BB OS7 besides apps. My brother has to root his phone to get basic functionality of his old BB. He likes Android because he can fully customize his phone. BB will NEVER do that. It's a security issue. Sorry. And I'm not even going to say anything about the simplicity of iOS. I hate it and I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATEx 1323498572598275929 Itunes and being tied to it. I hate all the Apples Business practice and refuse to support anything from them. I wish someone would come out with an ipod touch like device that is somewhat on par.
    axllebeer likes this.
    04-02-12 12:37 PM
  24. bobauckland's Avatar
    I said "superior product", not superior in every way. People who are buying new phones look at everything. Hardware, apps, design, support, longevity etc. RIM can't win on email and LED alone. That's what they thought 3 years ago and current state of affairs have proved them wrong. Their hardware is behind, their software is behind and their competitors have good enough offerings of their biggest strength.

    Remember that around the same period Microsoft and Nokia found themselves in the same hole. The iphone had come out, andriod was surging and they had winmo and symbian offerings. 3 years later completely new phone design with hardware to compete. Very different story for RIM
    I disagree, in that I don't believe the iPhone is a superior product. If its not superior in every way then its superior to some people, for their needs. For my needs, and for a lot of BlackBerry users, its vastly inferior.
    RIM are holding on to their market share almost solely based on email and LED and security and a keyboard. Many people would have expected them to fold by now but the key point is no one else has really made efforts and come close to what RIM offers in these departments. The hardware is behind comparable devices, yes, I have to give you that, from every point except the keyboard, which is far superior to anything else on a mobile device.
    The OS itself is rock solid and holds its own against the competing OSes on basic OS functionality but the app selection is very poor, I agree.
    Its very debatable whether Windows Phone was a good move for Microsoft or Nokia, particularly Nokia, as it hasn't really taken off at all. Also, the hardware isn't stellar in that theres no real variation in form factors and most if not all of the Nokia devices don't have front facing cameras, do they?
    RIM simply needs to accept its shortcomings and work on them and they'd be miles ahead of the competition for many users. The problem is this has been the case for years now, and theres no indication that anyone high up is listening or able to understand this.
    Morty2264 likes this.
    04-02-12 12:39 PM
  25. alnamvet68's Avatar
    Also the form factor. VHS was much smaller.
    No, Beta was smaller.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-02-12 01:29 PM
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