10-14-18 03:31 AM
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  1. DallinCrump's Avatar
    UPDATE 8/30/2018:

    I’ve managed to remove my foot from my mouth long enough to say that after watching the KEY2 LE videos today, I’m planning on buying one on release day.

    I’m doing a detailed writeup explaining why, but suffice it to say: never say never.

    UPDATE 8/27/2018:

    Now that I know about the existence of NetGuard (https://netguard.me), I'd be ok with using a BlackBerry Android device. It's not a perfect solution and won't stop Google completely from collecting data, but it will definitely give me the amount of control I'm looking for over most apps phoning home.

    If I had known about the existence of NetGuard beforehand, I wouldn't have posted this.

    __________

    Google tracks your movements, like it or not

    I have always felt the marketing claims of BlackBerry Android phones protecting our privacy were misleading at best for this very reason. I have long suspected that Google collects data about almost everything a user does with an Android phone, regardless of their account settings - that Google has merely created the illusion of control over the data it collects and how it uses that data. This news at least partially confirms that.

    Many of us have been voicing our concerns about Google's tracking via Android since long before the PRIV was announced.

    Most people implicitly trust Google - or are at least indifferent about them - and don't care that they're being tracked in this manner.

    But a selling point for many of us who bought BB10 and earlier BlackBerrys was that they weren't running Android - that we weren't being tracked for the purposes of targeted ads, at least not on the OS level. When BlackBerry first announced its unholy alliance with Android, we felt we had been betrayed. And we have been.

    And while Google may be the most prolific and well-known data-miner, it is far from alone.

    I'm not just talking about Facebook. As reported in the Intercept late last year, many of the most popular Android apps have third-party trackers embedded in them that are feeding all kinds of personal information to companies you've never heard of:

    Staggering Variety of Clandestine Trackers Found in Popular Android Apps

    Until I can be assured that Google is being 100% transparent about its data collection and use, and that I have 100% control over exactly what data I allow them and third parties to collect from my phone, I will not be using any phone running Android, let alone a post-BB10 BlackBerry
    Last edited by Newfangled; 08-30-18 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Never say never.
    08-13-18 12:42 PM
  2. Bla1ze's Avatar
    'This is why I will never buy any device running Android'.. fixed that for you. Also, I'm preeeettty sure you have owned a few Android devices over your time. To say nothing about the fact that every OS tracks you in one way or another. If it's not Google, it's your carrier. If you have a SIM in it... you're being tracked. Full stop. The only difference is how that data is accessed and used.
    08-13-18 12:58 PM
  3. glwerry's Avatar
    I believe that BB markets their Android as being SECURE, not PRIVATE.

    There is a difference.
    Flatman, melhiore and gritsinct like this.
    08-13-18 01:08 PM
  4. DallinCrump's Avatar
    'This is why I will never buy any device running Android'.. fixed that for you. Also, I'm preeeettty sure you have owned a few Android devices over your time.
    No correction necessary. Read the last sentence of my post.

    I never claimed I haven't owned an Android device before. I don't own one now, though, nor will I buy another until those conditions I outlined are met.

    What do you think about Google continuing to collect location data even when they've led people to believe they aren't?
    08-13-18 01:10 PM
  5. DallinCrump's Avatar
    I believe that BB markets their Android as being SECURE, not PRIVATE.

    There is a difference.
    This is why I will never buy a BlackBerry running Android-screen-shot-2018-08-13-11.12.20-am.png

    https://blackberrymobile.com/product/blackberry-key2/
    Mecca EL, joewoo, JECE and 1 others like this.
    08-13-18 01:13 PM
  6. conite's Avatar
    I believe that BB markets their Android as being SECURE, not PRIVATE.

    There is a difference.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    On Android, Google is a trusted partner, so it isn't included in the overall privacy analysis.

    The user deals with both Google and their carrier however they see fit - as they do with any other apps they choose to install.
    08-13-18 01:13 PM
  7. Bla1ze's Avatar
    No correction necessary. Read the last sentence of my post.

    I never claimed I haven't owned an Android device before. I don't own one now, though, nor will I buy another until those conditions I outlined are met.

    What do you think about Google continuing to collect location data even when they've led people to believe they aren't?
    It's certainly not an ideal situation but part of it is apps not following the rules and another part of it is Google not enforcing it on an OS level. However, as I noted, there's so many other players in the mix that it's not entirely on Google to fix or address either. Let's say Google locked it all down. Great! That's only ONE failure point closed.

    All carriers siphon info from you just by simply having your SIM card in the device, they don't even need to worry about OS level enforcement. Example: AT&T works closely with the CIA/NSA and scoops up tons of call records and internet activities daily. - https://theintercept.com/2018/06/25/...-nsa-spy-hubs/

    It all comes down to 'who do you trust with the data?'. For me, Google can have it. Based on available info, I have more confidence in Google with my data than I do AT&T as an example. I feel as though Google still has the power to say 'no, you're not getting that data unless you have a warrant' or whatever whereas I feel AT&T has already handed over the keys and there's no barrier to entry to the data.

    And again, I can't stress enough that this isn't a BlackBerry vs. Android thing. People are screwed all around. You can only takes steps to minimize and reduce the impacts but at the end of the day, you're still being tracked somewhere.. somehow.
    08-13-18 01:18 PM
  8. chetmanley's Avatar
    If Blackberry wanted to put their money where their marketing mouth is, they should sell a PRD that has zero google/tencent bloat ware on the device. This gives people the option to install spyware or keep it clean. For everyone else, they can buy the standard phones with spyware included out of the box.
    08-13-18 01:19 PM
  9. DallinCrump's Avatar
    It's certainly not an ideal situation but part of it is apps not following the rules and another part of it is Google not enforcing it on an OS level. However, as I noted, there's so many other players in the mix that it's not entirely on Google to fix or address either. Let's say Google locked it all down. Great! That's only ONE failure point closed. All carriers siphon info from you just by simply having your SIM card in the device, they don't even need to worry about OS level enforcement.
    I agree the problem is bigger than Google. But Google is a huge piece of it, and if they took steps to be more transparent and give users true control, others might follow suit. I doubt that will ever happen, though, as Google's business model is built around data collection and giving users true control would likely cut into their profits.
    krazyatom likes this.
    08-13-18 01:20 PM
  10. DallinCrump's Avatar
    On Android, Google is a trusted partner, so it isn't included in the overall privacy analysis.

    The user deals with both Google and their carrier however they see fit - as they do with any other apps they choose to install.
    Users can't "deal" with things they are not made aware of. Like location data being collected even when they have led to believe it isn't.
    08-13-18 01:22 PM
  11. conite's Avatar
    Users can't "deal" with things they are not made aware of. Like location data being collected even when they have led to believe it isn't.
    As carriers have been doing from the start, sure.

    If you have misgivings about Google, give Apple a go. After that, use a dumbphone.

    I, for one, am perfectly satisfied with the quid pro quo with Google.
    08-13-18 01:37 PM
  12. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    As carriers have been doing from the start, sure.

    If you have misgivings about Google, give Apple a go. After that, use a dumbphone.

    I, for one, am perfectly satisfied with the quid pro quo with Google.
    Tin Cans with a string that's always in full view is the best option...
    pdr733 and Fret Madden like this.
    08-13-18 02:06 PM
  13. CrackPriv's Avatar
    It's certainly not an ideal situation but part of it is apps not following the rules and another part of it is Google not enforcing it on an OS level. However, as I noted, there's so many other players in the mix that it's not entirely on Google to fix or address either. Let's say Google locked it all down. Great! That's only ONE failure point closed.

    All carriers siphon info from you just by simply having your SIM card in the device, they don't even need to worry about OS level enforcement. Example: AT&T works closely with the CIA/NSA and scoops up tons of call records and internet activities daily. - https://theintercept.com/2018/06/25/...-nsa-spy-hubs/

    It all comes down to 'who do you trust with the data?'. For me, Google can have it. Based on available info, I have more confidence in Google with my data than I do AT&T as an example. I feel as though Google still has the power to say 'no, you're not getting that data unless you have a warrant' or whatever whereas I feel AT&T has already handed over the keys and there's no barrier to entry to the data.

    And again, I can't stress enough that this isn't a BlackBerry vs. Android thing. People are screwed all around. You can only takes steps to minimize and reduce the impacts but at the end of the day, you're still being tracked somewhere.. somehow.
    You are right. In Europe it is Vodafone who works close together with the GCHQ. This is the reason why they check all updates and security patches before they may be delivered to the customers. BlackBerry had no choice to give their permission. -I believe Telefonica and Telekom also have to cooperate with the intelligence services (in Germany the BND). Governments make us believe it should be for our security -But all governments always said this ...
    08-13-18 02:13 PM
  14. BerryRipe's Avatar
    I'm sure most everybody here has heard of this. Using tinfoil to keep car thieves from entering your vehicle using your key fob.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...=.13ae80cc2881

    Using RFID blocking materials on our smartphones.

    https://www.wired.com/2013/12/scotte...ckout-pockets/

    I have yet to use RFID materials and this could be a far less than perfect alternative to our privacy concerns but I wouldn't mind hearing people's opinions.

    Posted via CB10
    08-13-18 02:14 PM
  15. CrackPriv's Avatar
    It is not a question of Android, OS 10 or other systems. Remember: Merkels BlackBerry was monitored by the NSA ...
    08-13-18 03:50 PM
  16. conite's Avatar
    Tin Cans with a string that's always in full view is the best option...
    Unless the string is made in China.
    pdr733 likes this.
    08-13-18 04:01 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    It is not a question of Android, OS 10 or other systems. Remember: Merkels BlackBerry was monitored by the NSA ...
    That hack came from 2013 and prior.

    She NOW uses a Z10 with SecureSmart - which means it isn't really anything resembling a consumer device. Nor are the iPhones and other devices of other world leaders.
    08-13-18 04:05 PM
  18. CrackPriv's Avatar
    That hack came from 2013 and prior.

    She NOW uses a Z10 with SecureSmart - which means it isn't really anything resembling a consumer device. Nor are the iPhones and other devices of other world leaders.
    Yes, but the smartcard has a key not generated by BlackBerry but by the BSI (an government institute for Internet security).
    rarsen likes this.
    08-13-18 04:10 PM
  19. conite's Avatar
    Yes, but the smartcard has a key not generated by BlackBerry but by the BSI (an government institute for Internet security).
    Yes. That's what I referred to.
    rarsen likes this.
    08-13-18 04:11 PM
  20. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    As carriers have been doing from the start, sure.

    If you have misgivings about Google, give Apple a go. After that, use a dumbphone.

    I, for one, am perfectly satisfied with the quid pro quo with Google.
    Well said, And for some of us less satisfied with Google's quid pro quo offer, there are still many ways to control and limit the amount of personal information that Google collects and stores.

    I also think its a perfectly reasonable decision to partially or completely avoid Android and iOS due to the compromises they require. Choices include:

    1) Using alias instead of genuine personal information on a phone. (This will make some financial transactions more difficult.)

    2) Limiting permissions for apps

    3) Turning radios or the whole phone when not needed, or only carrying a phone when needed

    4) Carrying a BB10 phone or feature phone.

    5) Using a tablet with WiFi and a VPN together with VOIP.





    Posted with my trusty Z10
    rarsen and BerryRipe like this.
    08-13-18 04:29 PM
  21. PantherBlitz's Avatar
    This has been going on, but the reason it is in the news today is because Google has been found to be keeping a log of locations visited even if the user has location services turned off. A reasonable person should be able to believe that a company as well known and respected as Google would not obfuscate the meaning of "location services off".
    08-13-18 06:58 PM
  22. conite's Avatar
    This has been going on, but the reason it is in the news today is because Google has been found to be keeping a log of locations visited even if the user has location services turned off. A reasonable person should be able to believe that a company as well known and respected as Google would not obfuscate the meaning of "location services off".
    What about AT&T, TMO, and every other carrier in the world that tracks and logs your every move?

    I'm more concerned with how information is used than how it is collected.

    I am satisfied with Google's terms on use.
    Golfdriver97 likes this.
    08-13-18 07:04 PM
  23. chetmanley's Avatar
    Google tracks your movements, like it or not

    And while Google may be the most prolific and well-known data-miner, it is far from alone.

    I'm not just talking about Facebook. As reported in the Intercept late last year, many of the most popular Android apps have third-party trackers embedded in them that are feeding all kinds of personal information to companies you've never heard of:

    Staggering Variety of Clandestine Trackers Found in Popular Android Apps
    BB10 devices running android apps have the same issue - these app call home no different than if they were running on an Android device.

    The best thing about android over BB10 - the ability to run a firewall which you can use to monitor these connections, and block them individually as required.

    Here are two threads discussing how to make your Android BB phone private:

    De-googling your Keyone:
    https://forums.crackberry.com/blackb...esome-1114355/

    Netguard Firewall + Orbot Tor:
    https://forums.crackberry.com/blackb.../#post13250564

    Combine these with Firefox browser running privacy addons and you will have a device that's more private than a BB10 phone.
    rarsen, elfabio80, ck2nb and 1 others like this.
    08-13-18 07:24 PM
  24. bakron1's Avatar
    I have been in the tech industry since the early days and have come to realize that anytime your on the grid your being monitored.

    If you have any type of cell phone, you can be tracked because every one has a tracking device for 911 calls and you can’t turn it off.

    This is 2018 and everything is connected in one way or another and the best solution for those who are worried about their movements being tracked is relax, life is way too short to worry about things like that.

    I value my privacy as much as the next person does, but I not going to live my life looking over my shoulder or worrying about who is monitoring me.

    I use good passwords, stay off websites that I feel are questionable and use common sense when I am on the grid. Just my two cents.
    Last edited by bakron1; 08-13-18 at 08:24 PM.
    08-13-18 07:39 PM
  25. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I have been in the tech industry since the early days and have come to realize that anytime your on the grid your being monitored.

    If you have any type of cell phone, you can be tracked because every one has a tracking device for 911 calls and you can’t turn it off.

    This is 2017 and everything is connected in one way or another and the best solution for those who are worried about their movements being tracked is relax, life is way too short to worry about things like that.

    I value my privacy as much as the next person does, but I not going to live my life looking over my shoulder or worrying about who is monitoring me.

    I use good passwords, stay off websites that I feel are questionable and use common sense when I am on the grid. Just my two cents.
    You’ve been a little too relaxed.... it’s now 2018 brother.........
    08-13-18 07:55 PM
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