01-28-12 10:00 PM
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  1. omniusovermind's Avatar
    Yes. What are they thinking wanting to make more than minimum wage and health benefits.

    I do agree that unions have its issues but the quality of work is usually better (at least regarding trades). You can come visit me in northwestern PA and I will show you the buildings that were constructed by non-union trademen and the ones built by union tradesmen. You wont believe what you are seeing.
    the only downside to being in a union is listening to all the snivelling by people in oppressive dead end jobs wanting to bring you down since they can't raise themselves.
    01-24-12 09:32 AM
  2. xandermac's Avatar
    the only downside to being in a union is listening to all the snivelling by people in oppressive dead end jobs wanting to bring you down since they can't raise themselves.
    Anyone that Needs a union to "raise" them obviously doesn't have the skills to make it on their own.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    si_chindo and maddie1128 like this.
    01-24-12 09:52 AM
  3. fadown's Avatar
    in the end free trade royally ed us all, it was toted as a good thing to help the little guys sell/ship they're products around with out getting hit with huge duties and taxes. mean while the heads of these huge corporations where thinking great we can manufacture in china or where ever they want and ship back here with out getting hit with import taxes boosting profit margins............ just sayin'.
    and correct me if I'm wrong blackberry's are manufactured in Hungry, Canada and Mexico. I've been using blackberry's for 5 years and most of my berrys have been made in canada.
    01-24-12 09:59 AM
  4. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    What industry are you in? I know I read it somewhere but cant remember.

    A local brake rotor manufacturer who supplied a lot of the aftermarket rotors for the big 3 closed up shop in the early 2000's and moved operations to China. Fast forward a decade and they are looking to bring operations back to the US. The issue now is that all those machinists have moved on to other lines of work (IT, nursing, etc) and they are struggling to find skilled machinists.

    The question for that Brake Rotor manufacturer is did they go to China and rebuild their American plan? or did they go to China, and use Chinese culture and Chinese practices?
    in China, Deadline matters before quality, that is the culture in Manufacturing, that was/is HARD to break, part of our reason for improving quality in China was that we replaced manual welding in the USA, with Robotic welding in China, the 10-15% cost reduction in buying Steel bulk in China, and the lower cost robotics made it financially viable to move to Robots
    Also you need to plan your production knowing that you need shorter deadlines that are easier to achieve for more consistency, if the deadline is realistic but challenging, you push it, and you break it into 4, 1 gives you more QC check points, lets you realize early if the deadline IS achievable. American Company's use BIG lofty deadlines as motivators in N/A, saying we need 5 million widgets in 5 months lets go, motivates in N/A, in China, they'd do better with 1 Million widgets in 1 month 5 times, as they work to get the deadline first.
    01-24-12 10:02 AM
  5. si_chindo's Avatar
    I for one will continue to support Blackberry because I like their phones and that sweeet sweet keyboard.
    01-24-12 10:03 AM
  6. omniusovermind's Avatar
    Anyone that Needs a union to "raise" them obviously doesn't have the skills to make it on their own.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    I just said "raise themselves" didn't I? Derp? Did my statement say "those successful, innovative bright minds"? No I didn't. Reading comprehension FTW
    Last edited by omniusovermind; 01-24-12 at 10:14 AM.
    01-24-12 10:12 AM
  7. grover5's Avatar
    Anyone that Needs a union to "raise" them obviously doesn't have the skills to make it on their own.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    I can't stop laughing at this one. Seriously? Your words are saturated in ignorance and vanity.
    omniusovermind likes this.
    01-24-12 10:13 AM
  8. xandermac's Avatar
    I can't stop laughing at this one. Seriously? Your words are saturated in ignorance and vanity.
    Or hard work and self reliance. I prefer to let my skills and worth advance my career, not brute force and blackmail. This is obviously a discussion for another forum, but feel free to PM if you'd like to continue it.
    01-24-12 10:18 AM
  9. omniusovermind's Avatar
    Or hard work and self reliance. I prefer to let my skills and worth advance my career, not brute force and blackmail. This is obviously a discussion for another forum, but feel free to PM if you'd like to continue it.
    start a fight and then cop out, good one. way to paint an entire institution in a big fat brush stroke too.
    01-24-12 10:25 AM
  10. randall2580's Avatar
    Yes its a funny thing here in America we like to drink the water and breathe the air, so we have job killing regulations. Other posters are correct when we were willing to look past these things and work for $17 a day those jobs were here but when we decided those things mattered, those jobs went where they don't - that's ayn rand capitalism at it's finest. You can try and make a difference with the money you spend but on things like electronics its a very difficult proposition.
    01-24-12 10:32 AM
  11. LoganSix's Avatar
    It wouldn't be easy but if the President is asking why not then maybe it's the right time.
    I'm having a little time deciphering your post. Are you saying that the current President is asking "why not" about building things in the U.S.?

    Not trying to hijack this into a political thread but...
    The first thing he needs to do is reign in all the regulations he's making the EPA implement to make it harder for companies to build things. And the second thing is to keep the National Labor Relations Board from preventing companies from creating new jobs (i.e. Boeing in South Carolina).

    The EPA has passed over 200 laws each year for the last two years alone, that have over a $100 million impact on businesses in this country. There is regulation and then there is obstruction.
    Last edited by LoganSix; 01-24-12 at 10:44 AM. Reason: clarification of sentence
    01-24-12 10:42 AM
  12. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Yes its a funny thing here in America we like to drink the water and breathe the air, so we have job killing regulations. Other posters are correct when we were willing to look past these things and work for $17 a day those jobs were here but when we decided those things mattered, those jobs went where they don't - that's ayn rand capitalism at it's finest. You can try and make a difference with the money you spend but on things like electronics its a very difficult proposition.
    With all due respect,
    Our facility was required to have an onsite water treatment plant, no water can leave the site that isn't drinkable. China today isn't the same as China 10-15 years ago, Environmental regulations are getting just as if not more tough than they are in North America due to the sheer size and proximity of the factories,

    We have orders of magnitude more bureaucracy to get things done, and more layers to check each stage of development.
    the "Job Killing" regulations are actually more in the way of tariff on products are such that it is better to bring the product in completed and pay the tariffs than it is to bring in parts to build here.

    you want more Manufacturing in North America, North Americans need to want to go to work, in China you don't show up, you get replaced, in North America you don't.
    Governments need to tax imported components that are available for production in North America to make production in North America more attractive,
    And Consumers need to actually believe in Made in North American Products, and be willing to pay more.
    Regulations for "Made in America" need to be made more clear, as "Made in America" can also mean, Assembled in America. which isn't the same thing.

    Mind you I wouldn't be looking at Technology company's as your first place to go on this more protectionist and nationalistic move, I would start with FOOD!
    Where is your food farmed? where is it processed? Where is it tested?
    The Agriculture industry in North America is REALLY hurting, and you don't want to rely on every other nation for your food, like we do with oil do you?
    01-24-12 10:44 AM
  13. lnichols's Avatar
    You would have to pay American workers at least 5 times as much plus benefits and shortly even healthcare, so the iPhone would perhaps cost 3 or 4 times as much.
    Apple is making huge profit per device. They could make less per device and make them elsewhere, but then Wall Street wouldn't be happy. Wall Street is the one's that are killing the US economy. They demand ridiculous growth in revenue every quarter, which forces companies to offshore and use cheap labor. The days of investing for the long term are over. And I wouldn't expect anyone in Congress, who can pick stocks based on insider info legally, to do anything about it because they are gaming the system and profiting from it hugely. It is up to individual investors to be responsible if they want money to stay in the US because fund managers and Wall Street fat cats are just out for pure return (i.e. greed). And as we all know from Alan Greenspan's statements, all these models he and the Fed used that failed miserably don't factor in greed. They used to say, and still do, if you invest in the market it would trickle down to all Americans, but what really happens is all that money trickles out to countries with cheap labor and while maximizing ridiculous bonuses to fat CEO's and large shareholders who don't give a damn if they create a single job here, except for the illegal gardeners they hire to tend their estates (they still need cheap labor for that too you know).

    I would love to see companies setup funds that just invested in businesses in the US and part of the stipulation to receive investment is that you can only hire/employ people in the US and only hire legal labor. If you get caught violating this you owe back every dime plus a penalty. Then at least people would know they are investing in US. May sound selfish but I think it is time for US to put the US first. Rant over and I know this would never happen.
    01-24-12 11:05 AM
  14. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Apple is making huge profit per device. They could make less per device and make them elsewhere, but then Wall Street wouldn't be happy. Wall Street is the one's that are killing the US economy. They demand ridiculous growth in revenue every quarter, which forces companies to offshore and use cheap labor. The days of investing for the long term are over. And I wouldn't expect anyone in Congress, who can pick stocks based on insider info legally, to do anything about it because they are gaming the system and profiting from it hugely. It is up to individual investors to be responsible if they want money to stay in the US because fund managers and Wall Street fat cats are just out for pure return (i.e. greed). And as we all know from Alan Greenspan's statements, all these models he and the Fed used that failed miserably don't factor in greed. They used to say, and still do, if you invest in the market it would trickle down to all Americans, but what really happens is all that money trickles out to countries with cheap labor and while maximizing ridiculous bonuses to fat CEO's and large shareholders who don't give a damn if they create a single job here, except for the illegal gardeners they hire to tend their estates (they still need cheap labor for that too you know).

    I would love to see companies setup funds that just invested in businesses in the US and part of the stipulation to receive investment is that you can only hire/employ people in the US and only hire legal labor. If you get caught violating this you owe back every dime plus a penalty. Then at least people would know they are investing in US. May sound selfish but I think it is time for US to put the US first. Rant over and I know this would never happen.

    There is a Store in the US, I saw it on the news called "Made in America" and he very much prides himself on selling made in America using American goods, you should look them up and see if they have a following, or talk this idea with him, it could happen
    01-24-12 11:10 AM
  15. randall2580's Avatar
    With all due respect,
    Our facility was required to have an onsite water treatment plant, no water can leave the site that isn't drinkable. China today isn't the same as China 10-15 years ago, Environmental regulations are getting just as if not more tough than they are in North America due to the sheer size and proximity of the factories,

    We have orders of magnitude more bureaucracy to get things done, and more layers to check each stage of development.
    the "Job Killing" regulations are actually more in the way of tariff on products are such that it is better to bring the product in completed and pay the tariffs than it is to bring in parts to build here.

    you want more Manufacturing in North America, North Americans need to want to go to work, in China you don't show up, you get replaced, in North America you don't.
    Governments need to tax imported components that are available for production in North America to make production in North America more attractive,
    And Consumers need to actually believe in Made in North American Products, and be willing to pay more.
    Regulations for "Made in America" need to be made more clear, as "Made in America" can also mean, Assembled in America. which isn't the same thing.

    Mind you I wouldn't be looking at Technology company's as your first place to go on this more protectionist and nationalistic move, I would start with FOOD!
    Where is your food farmed? where is it processed? Where is it tested?
    The Agriculture industry in North America is REALLY hurting, and you don't want to rely on every other nation for your food, like we do with oil do you?
    Amen and well said about food - I couldn't agree more.

    And certainly China may be better than it was 15 years ago but I don't think you can equate a country where our athletes were worried about breathing the air at the Olympics (2 years ago) - to the environmental standards we have here.

    Finally it's a very broad brush you paint with regarding workers in America - I have been working since I was 15 and I have never one day not worried about the repercussions of not showing up to my job, speaking on my own behalf.
    01-24-12 11:12 AM
  16. mjs416's Avatar
    With all due respect,
    Our facility was required to have an onsite water treatment plant, no water can leave the site that isn't drinkable. China today isn't the same as China 10-15 years ago, Environmental regulations are getting just as if not more tough than they are in North America due to the sheer size and proximity of the factories,
    Potable water standards are different in each country. The definition of potable in china is not the same as potable in the US.

    Also - while China's environmental regulations may be coming in line with ours - the damage is still there. That level of pollution doesnt disappear overnight. Air and water quality are still horrible at this point. They need decades of no pollutants entering the environment to off set was has been done.
    01-24-12 11:26 AM
  17. lnichols's Avatar
    Amen and well said about food - I couldn't agree more.

    And certainly China may be better than it was 15 years ago but I don't think you can equate a country where our athletes were worried about breathing the air at the Olympics (2 years ago) - to the environmental standards we have here.

    Finally it's a very broad brush you paint with regarding workers in America - I have been working since I was 15 and I have never one day not worried about the repercussions of not showing up to my job, speaking on my own behalf.
    Amen. I've been to Beijing twice, once for three weeks (2007), and another time for a week and a half (2010), and the air quality was awful the first time, and worse the second. The number of cars and traffic there increased dramatically too. Have you seen the reports that show the cities in China where all the old computer equipment from the US goes to and they try to recover and de-solder boards? They are environmental disasters.

    Also I love seeing blanket comments like Unions are bad, regulations are bad, American's are lazy. First unions became necessary because of horrible working conditions and pay back in the day. They are probably not as useful now, and in some instances do more harm than good, but they came to be because of greedy corporations back in the day treating workers as disposable units. One died on the job, another poor dude will gladly work in dangerous conditions for low money. Unions served their purpose to improve conditions and get regulations in place for decent working environments. But at the same time I can admit that some Unions today are just bad and some are not needed.

    Regulations are put into place because companies will do whatever they can to save a buck that is legal, environment and workers be damned. Ever hear of how a coal mine that dumped slag into a gorge in WV basically created a debris damn which one day broke and flooded multiple towns, killing 84 people and leaving thousands homeless? It has happened and would still happen there were not regulations preventing it. Or regulations that were put in after the Stock crashes of 1929 to prevent another crash, most of which have now all been reversed. You can kid yourself all you want and say that most companies are more responsible and that wouldn't happen, but in the end greed will win out as we've seen with the more recent financial collapses here in the US and environmental conditions in developing countries.
    grover5 and karaya1 like this.
    01-24-12 01:30 PM
  18. mjs416's Avatar
    Or regulations that were put in after the Stock crashes of 1929 to prevent another crash, most of which have now all been reversed.
    But... but... it's all Barney Franks fault! Have one of them debates yet? Most of the people who say that have never heard of Glass & Stegall.
    01-24-12 02:02 PM
  19. bitek's Avatar
    I agree with you a point, at the end of the day it is not apple's fault that people are getting paid $17 a day . it is the country where the item is being made they can not tell what the owner of manufacture hey you need you give these people a raise . also if all the sudden we start to demand people get paid more over seas prices of items coming from that country will jump, the wage increase in that country will also cause inflation of prices on food and other items because people are starting to make more. then you have an issue as to what happens to the other half of the people who are not making 17 dollars. i would love for people to make alot of money but when everyone makes money then everything goes up and then the raise looks like nothing. this is coming from a blackberry user i am not trying to defend apple i am trying to defend every business minded person who has the smarts and ability to manufacture over seas.
    Apple is sitting on billions of CASH,this pretty much slave labour makes Apple phones and unemployment is very high in the US. i think there is something seriously wrong with this scenerio. IMO USA government should have guts to step in and fix this problem. Like high duties on products made in China. This would make many companies like Apple re-think their business model.
    01-24-12 02:03 PM
  20. bitek's Avatar

    The only thing that is shocking to me is that people are shocked about this article. Why do you think people kill themselves at Foxconn? Too much vacation?

    You can try avoid buying stuff from China but everyone has something made from China. Those people have choices too. They choose to work for that wage.
    And this my friend is exactly the point. [by the way I am Canadian] and same issues apply here. I am glad to pay extra for products made domestically. It is worth it.
    01-24-12 02:11 PM
  21. T
    Amen. I've been to Beijing twice, once for three weeks (2007), and another time for a week and a half (2010), and the air quality was awful the first time, and worse the second. The number of cars and traffic there increased dramatically too. Have you seen the reports that show the cities in China where all the old computer equipment from the US goes to and they try to recover and de-solder boards? They are environmental disasters.

    Also I love seeing blanket comments like Unions are bad, regulations are bad, American's are lazy. First unions became necessary because of horrible working conditions and pay back in the day. They are probably not as useful now, and in some instances do more harm than good, but they came to be because of greedy corporations back in the day treating workers as disposable units. One died on the job, another poor dude will gladly work in dangerous conditions for low money. Unions served their purpose to improve conditions and get regulations in place for decent working environments. But at the same time I can admit that some Unions today are just bad and some are not needed.

    Regulations are put into place because companies will do whatever they can to save a buck that is legal, environment and workers be damned. Ever hear of how a coal mine that dumped slag into a gorge in WV basically created a debris damn which one day broke and flooded multiple towns, killing 84 people and leaving thousands homeless? It has happened and would still happen there were not regulations preventing it. Or regulations that were put in after the Stock crashes of 1929 to prevent another crash, most of which have now all been reversed. You can kid yourself all you want and say that most companies are more responsible and that wouldn't happen, but in the end greed will win out as we've seen with the more recent financial collapses here in the US and environmental conditions in developing countries.
    That's right. America's framers were wise enough not to institute laissez-faire capitalism where anything goes. Instead they conceived an American system of capitalism held in check by regulation specifically constitutional taxes on imports.
    01-24-12 02:27 PM
  22. grover5's Avatar
    Amen. I've been to Beijing twice, once for three weeks (2007), and another time for a week and a half (2010), and the air quality was awful the first time, and worse the second. The number of cars and traffic there increased dramatically too. Have you seen the reports that show the cities in China where all the old computer equipment from the US goes to and they try to recover and de-solder boards? They are environmental disasters.

    Also I love seeing blanket comments like Unions are bad, regulations are bad, American's are lazy. First unions became necessary because of horrible working conditions and pay back in the day. They are probably not as useful now, and in some instances do more harm than good, but they came to be because of greedy corporations back in the day treating workers as disposable units. One died on the job, another poor dude will gladly work in dangerous conditions for low money. Unions served their purpose to improve conditions and get regulations in place for decent working environments. But at the same time I can admit that some Unions today are just bad and some are not needed.

    Regulations are put into place because companies will do whatever they can to save a buck that is legal, environment and workers be damned. Ever hear of how a coal mine that dumped slag into a gorge in WV basically created a debris damn which one day broke and flooded multiple towns, killing 84 people and leaving thousands homeless? It has happened and would still happen there were not regulations preventing it. Or regulations that were put in after the Stock crashes of 1929 to prevent another crash, most of which have now all been reversed. You can kid yourself all you want and say that most companies are more responsible and that wouldn't happen, but in the end greed will win out as we've seen with the more recent financial collapses here in the US and environmental conditions in developing countries.
    Very well said. I would add that Unions were key in establishing fair pay and benefits by allowing the workers to share more in the success of the company as opposed to only those at the top. But I agree that there are bad unions out there as well. Anyway I have been off topic in this thread too much but I just wanted to add that point.
    01-24-12 02:30 PM
  23. LoganSix's Avatar
    Also I love seeing blanket comments like Unions are bad, regulations are bad, American's are lazy. First unions became necessary because of horrible working conditions and pay back in the day
    Very well said. I would add that Unions were key in establishing fair pay and benefits by allowing the workers to share more in the success of the company as opposed to only those at the top.
    I would like to point out that Henry Ford instituted the 40 hour work week and higher pay in order to make more money. He found that providing a better place to work and offering higher pay attracted better quality workers. This was before the unions had any sort of influence.
    01-24-12 02:54 PM
  24. nyc_rock's Avatar
    Yes its a funny thing here in America we like to drink the water and breathe the air, so we have job killing regulations. Other posters are correct when we were willing to look past these things and work for $17 a day those jobs were here but when we decided those things mattered, those jobs went where they don't - that's ayn rand capitalism at it's finest. You can try and make a difference with the money you spend but on things like electronics its a very difficult proposition.
    Your choice is false. We dont have to choose between clean air and water or jobs. We can have both.
    01-24-12 03:04 PM
  25. nyc_rock's Avatar
    I didnt get a chance to read this article, but I did see the debate and the question.

    But when I heard the question about Apple I wasnt sure if it was even posed correctly. Apple doesnt directly employ 500,000 workers in China, right? That would be the amount of employees who work for Apples contractors, correct?
    01-24-12 03:07 PM
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