06-27-10 09:21 PM
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  1. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    I think there are a few complaints bundled into one post here.

    The likely trigger of this outburst was loss of data saved to that partition when the device failed. On the iPhone such loss would be mitigated by the fact that iTunes manages device storage, whereas the user is responsible for it on the BlackBerry. The data was probably not backed up and hence the rage.

    That rage is then channeled into an old complaint about app space for the entertainment of forum users
    Yes... that's exactly what it is because I have a 9800 in my posession. Seriously, synth, stop trying to make educated guesses... all you're doing is failing.

    BTW, I have never used the internal media memory on the S1 or S2 or any other device that came with it. I always store all my stuff on the SD cards. PIM backups happen from time to time and SD card backups happen with image snapshots of the drive when Mass Storage Mode is enabled. So... ummmm... ya, nice try.


    The point of this thread has already been explained by AG and several others who "get" the point. It's about app space and the fact that someone at RIM seems to think it's a good idea to have this internal (non-removable) media memory for some reason on these phones. RIM's made the 9800 for AT&T and their mentality is that it's probably going to be the 9000 replacement that users flock to. That being said, since the 9000 came with 1GB of internal media memory, they thought it would be a good idea to give users a bump. This is the same principal they did with the S2 having doubled internal media memory then the S1. The bad moves here is that these phones need more memory for the OS/APPS/PIM management, NOT media. You want to store media, get a memory card. And to make it even worse, (right now), you can't even argue that they put in the additional memory for the benefit of apps running from it, because not even OS6 brings this to the table. So, in the end it's a waste... why? Simple, by the time RIM makes enough OS advancements to even attempt to run things off these other allocated memory pools, the OS will be too big to run on the 512MB of flash memory they put in the same model phone anyway. Heck, OS6 pretty much takes up over 1/2 of the available flash memory app space of the 9800.
    06-27-10 10:03 AM
  2. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I don't think there is an issue of where the apps are stored as compared to how much available memory is on the device. Yes people can have all sorts of memory cards available. But I think the point here is why only provide 300 mb app memory in that device and give 3.6 gb of media memory. I understand your sand box theory in regards to security, but would it hurt to increase the sand in the box to a level that's decent? 2gb for app and 2gb for media? That wouldn't be difficult, yet RIM is persistent on giving you as little as possible to play with.

    Has anyone tested write/rewrite speeds on onboard app vs Storage memory?
    I suspect they use much cheaper/slower memory for storage vs app,
    I see the value of having them seperate, as I said earilier I would love to have faster memory for pictures as the write speed to microSD cards is far too slow


    I do think there is a Market for a Premium BB that is built to compete with the iphone & andriod based phones, this device isn't it mind you this device needs to keep prices down, ideally they do it with the Storm 3 make a $799 no contract device, give us BB software on killer hardware, make the likes of Civic happy in terms of hardware, die hards will buy it, I know I'd pay extra to have a 9000 or slightly larger BB with proposed 9800 specs.
    06-27-10 10:06 AM
  3. phonejunky's Avatar
    Civic is by far the most annoying person I know on CB.... It gets sooo old reading her daily rants and her whining like a little you know what and it irritates me to no end!!
    She must not annoy you to bad because you continue to read her post, so block her or suck it up. Your a cb genius I'm sure you know how to block people.
    06-27-10 10:19 AM
  4. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    I see there are no technical points in this thread so I'd like to make some.

    The memory inside of a blackberry storm/storm2 is much much much faster, with better latency and is EXTREMELY more reliable in terms of write/rewrite cycles(AND bit-for-bit accuracy) in comparison to a simple micro sd card. It has far more to do with a security and reliability standpoint, than it does with having the largest amount of bytes. In addition, AppWorld can store apps/additional app data there for future loading without the need to re-download. This is useful because not all BB devices do come with an SD card(or up until recently, the ability to use sd-cards)

    In an enterprise environment it's nice being able to ASSUME that someone has available space for pushed apps/etc in BES.
    RIM also has different memory classifications and restrictions (Developers back me up here) including which api's can be used/accessed with what(Memory access), and to where= security, security, security. The other issue is, RIM assumes you're going to go on Amazon, look for an SD card, then click the "Lowest Price First" drop-down. Those sd-cards are crap, and not suitable for a corp / gov / mil environment.

    So to everyone saying it's pointless, that's an opinion. Just because YOU don't see/need it, doesn't mean the target market doesn't need it.

    Oh and keep an eye out for Pwn2Own @ CanSec next year... you'll see why all of this security is important. I bet you dimes to dollars that the iPhone is the first mobile-device(As well as parent browser/OS) to fall (Hopefully from me).
    I agree with your post details, but not the bolded part. "Storing installs" of apps to the internal media memory is a pretty useless bit if you ask me. If you want an example of how low I view this, it's about as useful as taking a picture of a watch, cutting out the watch, and then taping that to your wrist rather then the real thing. lol

    I will agree that such storage of app installs "help" when it comes down to not wanting to keep using bandwidth to download the same things over and over again when you want to use it, but conversely, this wouldn't need to happen if there was enough app space, as you could simply install the app and just not uninstall it since you're not short on space constantly. So, the bottom line is, if this was RIM's reasoning for the internal media memory benefit, they're going around their elbow to band aid it.

    What I was saying is that while Civic does hae some valid points, she has a ton of threads all being extremely negative to the point that I don't even understand why she uses a product built by RIM. I can't imagine there isn't a phone built that would make her at least a little bit happier...maybe even bring a little sunshine and smiles into her life.
    The issue is one of either a handset doesn't do something in perticular or that a handset isn't available on my choice of carrier.

    Examples:
    Android phones with large amounts of app memory space exist (Incredible and X). However, Android doesn't support all the ActiveSync security profiles I have a need for. So, that equates into no Android phone is currently capable of what I need.

    iPhones support said ActiveSync profiles that I need access to, but it's not available on Verizon. So, that equates into no iPhone is currently capable of what I need.

    Solution:
    Solve these two problems for me in a sleek and sexy looking handset and I'll have a new phone.

    Really, the reason I'm still with a RIM handset in my posession is because I'm tired of compromises. Why change handsets to something else with further compromises when I can stay with what I have and deal with my current set of compromises. There will be no improvements by switching and even if there are, the improvements aren't vast enough to warrant a switch in my opinion.

    However, with all this said, this is most certainly not going to make me want to stop face palming or questioning the stupidity of RIM's ways of doing things each time I see a new BB handset hit the market. RIM's heading down the same path and making the same mistakes over and over again. It's like looking at a company that releases products that were developed for the past... 2 years in the past to be exact. I think Mike needs a hot tub time machine to fix his company's product development issues.
    06-27-10 10:23 AM
  5. K Bear's Avatar
    I see there are no technical points in this thread so I'd like to make some.

    The memory inside of a blackberry storm/storm2 is much much much faster, with better latency and is EXTREMELY more reliable in terms of write/rewrite cycles(AND bit-for-bit accuracy) in comparison to a simple micro sd card. It has far more to do with a security and reliability standpoint, than it does with having the largest amount of bytes. In addition, AppWorld can store apps/additional app data there for future loading without the need to re-download. This is useful because not all BB devices do come with an SD card(or up until recently, the ability to use sd-cards)

    In an enterprise environment it's nice being able to ASSUME that someone has available space for pushed apps/etc in BES. RIM also has different memory classifications and restrictions (Developers back me up here) including which api's can be used/accessed with what(Memory access), and to where= security, security, security. The other issue is, RIM assumes you're going to go on Amazon, look for an SD card, then click the "Lowest Price First" drop-down. Those sd-cards are crap, and not suitable for a corp / gov / mil environment.

    So to everyone saying it's pointless, that's an opinion. Just because YOU don't see/need it, doesn't mean the target market doesn't need it.

    Oh and keep an eye out for Pwn2Own @ CanSec next year... you'll see why all of this security is important. I bet you dimes to dollars that the iPhone is the first mobile-device(As well as parent browser/OS) to fall (Hopefully from me).
    Finally, someone is talking some sense here!!! It's not all about the damn Storm series. This is an issue that affects all of us Blackberry owners. Each series has been tweaked here and there, but essentially the foundations are the same and we all will be facing these issues if not now, in the near future with OS6 fast approaching.
    06-27-10 10:45 AM
  6. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Yes... that's exactly what it is because I have a 9800 in my posession. Seriously, synth, stop trying to make educated guesses... all you're doing is failing.

    BTW, I have never used the internal media memory on the S1 or S2 or any other device that came with it. I always store all my stuff on the SD cards. PIM backups happen from time to time and SD card backups happen with image snapshots of the drive when Mass Storage Mode is enabled. So... ummmm... ya, nice try.


    The point of this thread has already been explained by AG and several others who "get" the point. It's about app space and the fact that someone at RIM seems to think it's a good idea to have this internal (non-removable) media memory for some reason on these phones. RIM's made the 9800 for AT&T and their mentality is that it's probably going to be the 9000 replacement that users flock to. That being said, since the 9000 came with 1GB of internal media memory, they thought it would be a good idea to give users a bump. This is the same principal they did with the S2 having doubled internal media memory then the S1. The bad moves here is that these phones need more memory for the OS/APPS/PIM management, NOT media. You want to store media, get a memory card. And to make it even worse, (right now), you can't even argue that they put in the additional memory for the benefit of apps running from it, because not even OS6 brings this to the table. So, in the end it's a waste... why? Simple, by the time RIM makes enough OS advancements to even attempt to run things off these other allocated memory pools, the OS will be too big to run on the 512MB of flash memory they put in the same model phone anyway. Heck, OS6 pretty much takes up over 1/2 of the available flash memory app space of the 9800.
    May be wishful thinking on my part, but I assume that's a full install, and there's lots of shrinking that can be done? Otherwise there's going to be a lot of 9700 owners out there severely discontent soon.



    Posted from my berSupercharged Onyx at Idon'tneednostinkin'mobileview.crackberry.com
    06-27-10 10:52 AM
  7. bpgui's Avatar
    If this was in person i'd be grabbing popcorn and a technical dictionary.
    06-27-10 10:59 AM
  8. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I agree with your post details, but not the bolded part. "Storing installs" of apps to the internal media memory is a pretty useless bit if you ask me. If you want an example of how low I view this, it's about as useful as taking a picture of a watch, cutting out the watch, and then taping that to your wrist rather then the real thing. lol

    I will agree that such storage of app installs "help" when it comes down to not wanting to keep using bandwidth to download the same things over and over again when you want to use it, but conversely, this wouldn't need to happen if there was enough app space, as you could simply install the app and just not uninstall it since you're not short on space constantly. So, the bottom line is, if this was RIM's reasoning for the internal media memory benefit, they're going around their elbow to band aid it.



    The issue is one of either a handset doesn't do something in perticular or that a handset isn't available on my choice of carrier.

    Examples:
    Android phones with large amounts of app memory space exist (Incredible and X). However, Android doesn't support all the ActiveSync security profiles I have a need for. So, that equates into no Android phone is currently capable of what I need.

    iPhones support said ActiveSync profiles that I need access to, but it's not available on Verizon. So, that equates into no iPhone is currently capable of what I need.

    Solution:
    Solve these two problems for me in a sleek and sexy looking handset and I'll have a new phone.

    Really, the reason I'm still with a RIM handset in my posession is because I'm tired of compromises. Why change handsets to something else with further compromises when I can stay with what I have and deal with my current set of compromises. There will be no improvements by switching and even if there are, the improvements aren't vast enough to warrant a switch in my opinion.

    However, with all this said, this is most certainly not going to make me want to stop face palming or questioning the stupidity of RIM's ways of doing things each time I see a new BB handset hit the market. RIM's heading down the same path and making the same mistakes over and over again. It's like looking at a company that releases products that were developed for the past... 2 years in the past to be exact. I think Mike needs a hot tub time machine to fix his company's product development issues.

    LOL! at the watch!!


    I'm kind of in agreement with face palming some of RIM's choices, but am not as much of a pesimist as you. I think Mike does need some fresh people in his product development team, I think they need to look at 2 streams of development, a flagship Consumer device, charge more for it, put more into it, people are willing to pay, Apple actually banks on that with their computer market, and is successful, RIM you can do that with your smartphone line. They can keep growing with their current business model, seeing as many company's go on a 2-3 year upgrade cycle the incremental increases that RIM releases are enough over 3 years, heck I have customers who are currently "upgrading" to 9000's and they are amazed, at the differences between that and their previous 7000 series BB's, when they get what ever comes after the 9800 in 3 years they again will be impressed,
    06-27-10 11:02 AM
  9. K Bear's Avatar
    God I haven't seen that emoticon in years! I feel a 2001 flashback here. LOL
    06-27-10 11:10 AM
  10. WillieLee's Avatar
    It's almost like they have tens of millions of users in an enterprise environment that might not allow SD cards.
    06-27-10 11:27 AM
  11. JerseyDriver's Avatar
    With that, a phone that has the capability of huge external memory to also have
    a dedicated portion of internal memory that cannot be used for anything but what
    the memory card is already used for is totally pointless. So yes, it would be better
    if RIM made that memory usable as app memory.

    For those who think it is a non-issue and one RIM should not be concerned about
    answer this: Why then are there phones AFTER the Bold 9000 with NO internal
    memory. I submit it is because RIM realized how incredibly pointless this was.

    I wonder how many Bold 9000 user wish that 1gb was allocated differently
    knowing that at 128mb of app memory OS 6 ain't gonna happen.
    What worries me is that they did take it off some phones. Because I agree it is pointless for some of us to have it when you have the external storage, but if they had left it, there might be some hope RIM is actually working towards a solution of using it for app memory. They are now obviously putting more memory into most of the devices coming out which will handle OS 6, and while that is great for those devices/users, without upgrading, the rest of the older device users will be stuck with what they've got. Even if they have that extra built in memory that they salivate over but might get to use someday, this fact would seem to signal that they will never have the use of it. Wait, did I say salivate? I meant...

    What worries and annoys me is that there were devices put out in the last 6 months to a year which have only 256 in them. When did RIM start developing OS 6, which requires around 200M (if I've read correctly)? Shouldn't they have been ahead of the new OS knowing it would require that much space and then enlarge the device memory to accept it and still have at least another 100M+ of memory? This seems like the same issue that has been talked about before with small little upgrades here and there from RIM, somewhat designed to make you buy new devices. Those users who just bought a "newer" device will now know how those of us who have a device where you need to keep track of everything on your device so you don't run into memory issues feel.

    That's how I was when I originally bought my Bold 9000. I hadn't used a BB before, so I wasn't completely knowledgeable on how memory (overall vs usable) and such worked, even though I had done some research into the device, along with others (iPhone) I was thinking about. It was a real disappointment when I started getting to use it and then started to see the problems. I couldn't believe that you would make a device which had an OS around the ~80M range, and only have 40 left over for all the other things you wanted to use on it, knowing that once you get under 10 you may start having issues. I have some apps I think are great, can't fit them. Forget a lot of the cool themes. Very annoying.

    My though after using a BB for a year or two would always be take the OS size and multiply by at least 3, then add some more just for good measure. I wonder about OS 6 as well, things like; how big are the apps going to be? How much will it take to run a theme? Anyone writing apps for it yet and can answer that? If the OS is almost 3 times the size of the last one, will that in some was translate down to everything else it needs? You'd be running out of memory fast, even with 512--if I were designing the BB, it would be starting with 1G of memory.

    Anyone have an email for RIM customer support? General inquires? Love to have all the people who have good suggestions send them an email till they get the hint: we need more memory!

    And if you were looking for a show of hands about your last question.....

    *raises hand
    Last edited by JerseyDriver; 06-27-10 at 12:43 PM.
    06-27-10 12:30 PM
  12. JerseyDriver's Avatar
    May be wishful thinking on my part, but I assume that's a full install, and there's lots of shrinking that can be done? Otherwise there's going to be a lot of 9700 owners out there severely discontent soon.
    Like I said in my last post...

    It's almost like they have tens of millions of users in an enterprise environment that might not allow SD cards.
    This.
    06-27-10 12:42 PM
  13. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    May be wishful thinking on my part, but I assume that's a full install, and there's lots of shrinking that can be done? Otherwise there's going to be a lot of 9700 owners out there severely discontent soon.



    Posted from my berSupercharged Onyx at Idon'tneednostinkin'mobileview.crackberry.com
    I've said it before that 256MB models will become the new S1 of OS6. You'll be running around with 30MB or so of free memory or less. It happened with OS4.5 for 64/96MB models, it happened with OS5 and 128MB models, it'll happen with OS6 and 256MB models.

    LOL! at the watch!!


    I'm kind of in agreement with face palming some of RIM's choices, but am not as much of a pesimist as you. I think Mike does need some fresh people in his product development team, I think they need to look at 2 streams of development, a flagship Consumer device, charge more for it, put more into it, people are willing to pay, Apple actually banks on that with their computer market, and is successful, RIM you can do that with your smartphone line. They can keep growing with their current business model, seeing as many company's go on a 2-3 year upgrade cycle the incremental increases that RIM releases are enough over 3 years, heck I have customers who are currently "upgrading" to 9000's and they are amazed, at the differences between that and their previous 7000 series BB's, when they get what ever comes after the 9800 in 3 years they again will be impressed,
    And there is part of the issue. Uninformed consumers and CS people working for companies pushing out 2 year old models like they're new to people who don't know any better. If you ask me, the 9000 should have been retired a long time ago (i.e. when the 9700 came out), but you won't see that happen I don't think until the 9800 comes out. Frankly, I don't even know why people buy the 9k anymore... aside from maybe it's looks, sound, and comfortable size. It's really a shame that RIM's going the way of smaller design... there's nothing wrong with that, but it's badly implemented if you ask me. I think RIM's fault is that they don't really have "cool" enough people working for them. By this I mean, they don't have designers (both software and hardware) that know what's hot and what's not. Just look at all the older generations of the people we see in different interviews of project managers, etc. from RIM. It's not their fault, even American auto manufacturers suffer from the same issues. That's why they can't design a car that looks good, while the Euro and Aussie versions of them look tons better.

    I think it's time to retire Mr. Spacely and George Jetson and let Elroy run the crews for a while and see what pops out.
    06-27-10 02:03 PM
  14. JerseyDriver's Avatar
    Nah, the 9000 users are all waiting for RIM to put 1G of real memory, a trackpad and screen with higher resolution in it and re-issue it. Might be the best BB ever.
    06-27-10 02:08 PM
  15. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I've said it before that 256MB models will become the new S1 of OS6. You'll be running around with 30MB or so of free memory or less. It happened with OS4.5 for 64/96MB models, it happened with OS5 and 128MB models, it'll happen with OS6 and 256MB models.



    And there is part of the issue. Uninformed consumers and CS people working for companies pushing out 2 year old models like they're new to people who don't know any better. If you ask me, the 9000 should have been retired a long time ago (i.e. when the 9700 came out), but you won't see that happen I don't think until the 9800 comes out. Frankly, I don't even know why people buy the 9k anymore... aside from maybe it's looks, sound, and comfortable size. It's really a shame that RIM's going the way of smaller design... there's nothing wrong with that, but it's badly implemented if you ask me. I think RIM's fault is that they don't really have "cool" enough people working for them. By this I mean, they don't have designers (both software and hardware) that know what's hot and what's not. Just look at all the older generations of the people we see in different interviews of project managers, etc. from RIM. It's not their fault, even American auto manufacturers suffer from the same issues. That's why they can't design a car that looks good, while the Euro and Aussie versions of them look tons better.

    I think it's time to retire Mr. Spacely and George Jetson and let Elroy run the crews for a while and see what pops out.

    Really the 9000 is still a great phone, for the users that I know with it, they don't surf the net, they don't download apps, heck when I show them themes they are like cool, but don't do that to my phone I know this one. we are talking the 45y+ croud here, non tech people, mostly manufacture reps as that is what I am, the 9000 is still a great phone, great size, RIM small form factor devices are not what these people want, and the company's upgrading upgrade for proven technology both hardware and software, chances are they wont touch it until it is 2 years in public,

    RIM is still an old boys club, as I said before, they need 2 lines of development, cutting edge, and old boys club.
    06-27-10 03:36 PM
  16. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Nah, the 9000 users are all waiting for RIM to put 1G of real memory, a trackpad and screen with higher resolution in it and re-issue it. Might be the best BB ever.
    I disagree, maybe technology driver 9000 users, but I bet you more than half of them love the phone because it does what they need of it,

    there are still 100,000 of 7000 series phones out there, it is only us tech junkies that want to upgrade all the time, if your phone is purely for phone/email/contacts the 9000 is a great phone great size,

    now me on the other hand I want what you are saying
    06-27-10 03:39 PM
  17. kilted thrower's Avatar
    Civic, I think you should take a break from here and join T NATION | The Intelligent and Relentless Pursuit of Muscle and post some pics in the t-vixen area.
    06-27-10 04:02 PM
  18. avt123's Avatar
    RIM is still an old boys club, as I said before, they need 2 lines of development, cutting edge, and old boys club.
    I'm glad someone else here realizes this. People have been saying this forever, but the only comments you get when people offer this advice is "RIM is business first" or "RIM if fine for the consumer". Just sad, ignorant responses.
    06-27-10 04:08 PM
  19. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I'm glad someone else here realizes this. People have been saying this forever, but the only comments you get when people offer this advice is "RIM is business first" or "RIM if fine for the consumer". Just sad, ignorant responses.

    RIM does need to remain business first, I'll tell ya that I want a business phone before an entertainment phone, I thought I wanted entertainment, and got an ipod touch, you know what my most used app was?
    Documents to go! but BB does it better so I stopped using it.

    I think RIM needs to realize that consumers will pay more than business will for bells and whistles, the people who want cutting edge are willing to pay for it, the Tour actually should be proof of that, it was $100 more than any other BB before or after it!

    Make a Storm 3, dump the money into it hardware wise and launch it, the early adopters will make the money for the development and over time you can discount it further.
    06-27-10 04:26 PM
  20. JerseyDriver's Avatar
    RIM is still an old boys club, as I said before, they need 2 lines of development, cutting edge, and old boys club.
    I hear your points, but what I asked for in my last post should affect the phone that much. The trackball is becoming the standard, the 1G is just a bigger chip and slightly more resolution is not a huge task either. If it had been designed that way (didn't have the trackball at the time obviously) it would have been an even better device, one that could have lasted for years and years.

    The problem with designing for the old boys club is nothing will ever change, and that would be bad. While I don't necessarily think you need to play WoW on your BB (really? it's a 2-3" screen) having a faster processor and more memory would help people who may want to try AND the old boys, cause then their BBs would just work better/faster.
    06-27-10 04:34 PM
  21. Steve Rizla's Avatar
    If I kept important information on my phone and I lost the phone, I would rather it be on internal memory rather than on an SD card.

    When I remote wipe the device or if the person who found it (or stole it) inadvertently wipes the device, I will have peace of mind knowing that those files are gone rather than being transfered off of the SD card onto someones computer.
    Last edited by Steve Rizla; 06-27-10 at 04:43 PM.
    06-27-10 04:35 PM
  22. Radius's Avatar
    All arguments aside and going by the title, why SHOULDN'T RIM offer internal memory? If they offer external memory as well then score! If not then you have a device with somewhat more limited capabilities and must be an entry level device.

    Either way choose what's better for you. What's the issue here anyhow? I can't see one.
    06-27-10 04:36 PM
  23. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I hear your points, but what I asked for in my last post should affect the phone that much. The trackball is becoming the standard, the 1G is just a bigger chip and slightly more resolution is not a huge task either. If it had been designed that way (didn't have the trackball at the time obviously) it would have been an even better device, one that could have lasted for years and years.

    The problem with designing for the old boys club is nothing will ever change, and that would be bad. While I don't necessarily think you need to play WoW on your BB (really? it's a 2-3" screen) having a faster processor and more memory would help people who may want to try AND the old boys, cause then their BBs would just work better/faster.
    I`m not saying you are wrong, I`m just saying that those advancement are not what the 9000 users are holding out for, heck the 8800 users are still holding on to 8800`s because they like the size
    06-27-10 04:43 PM
  24. JerseyDriver's Avatar
    I`m not saying you are wrong, I`m just saying that those advancement are not what the 9000 users are holding out for, heck the 8800 users are still holding on to 8800`s because they like the size
    Love the size of the 9000 too, feels solid. Tried the Curve at VZW, thought it might float out of my hand it was so light.
    06-27-10 05:00 PM
  25. Fret Madden's Avatar
    @Radius and Steve - don't let the title mislead you, the issue is amount of OS/app memory is being added vs internal memory - Civic is saying app memory could be quadrupled at the expense of internal memory. Hope that's a good enough nutshell. :P
    06-27-10 06:00 PM
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