[iN8ter]

No offense, but a BB storm doesn't even begin to approach the picture and video quality of an iPhone 4, unless you got an iPhone 3GS this year and not the 4?

[belfastdispatcher]

That's flat out wrong.

HTC HD2 - Released October 2009 with *almost* the same hardware that's in the first wave of Windows Phone 7 devices.

The problem wasn't the hardware, it was the OS. It was terrible, and that is where the problem lay.

Powerful is subjective. Even though the HD2 camera was capable of 720p video (same module was used in the HD7), the OS couldn't support it. There were a ton of limitations in WinMo that held that device down. Performance was well below par, as well as stability. And the Windows UI is terrible for capacitive touch devices...

In any case I use both an Android (2.2) and WP7.5 handset so I don't have to make any hard choices. I also have an iTouch 4th Gen. I use what's best. WP7 for SMS/IM (WLM/FB built in), Android/iOS for Social Networking (Apps clearly superior to WP7.5, TouchWiz 3.0 has the same People Hub functionality), Android for eMail (more functionality), Android and iOS for Media (Vibrant has more codecs than you can shake a stick at and a good screen, iOS has the best sound quality out of all of them), Android for gaming (Google gave me a ton of games for $0.10 each and the Hummingbird GPU is POWA :P). I typically just use the HD7 to make calls since it has my primary SIM/Phone Number in/on it.

I'm not talking about the last incarnation of windows mobile where they tried to make everything a widget, the versions before were behaving exactly like a PC and the OS and apps were powerfull.

For example on my HTC M700 that I had before the first iphone came out, had a free app that could set the phone behavior for every cell tower you wanted, at home turn gps off, turn wifi on, turn signal to 2G etc. Any cell tower was customisable. FREE app or "program" as it used to be called.

You could load big apps from CDs if you wanted, I installed TomTom and all the maps were on the memory card, no streaming of maps needed.

[brucep1]

Yup, it's their lack of marketing. When was the last time you saw a BB commercial on US TV? Instead you see ads for iPhone and Android phones all. The. Time. Even in magazines, you don't see stand-alone BB ads - instead it's carriers like AT&T pimping the Torch, for instance. And that's not good as AT&T has recently been ranked the worst amongst the big four.

Disclaimer: I use AT&T, but that's because I ain't paying the bill.

If fixing RIM was as simple as paying for a couple more commercials, don't you think they would have done that already?

RIM has to fight hard for its current customers and future BB users.

Without advertising people don't know what BBs can do or that they are the smart choice.

Ex. From my own experience I am more likely to buy a product if I recognize the brand in some way

Just about everyone I know has an idea what Blackberry is. I've never heard of someone saying, "Blackberry? What the heck is that?" Nowadays, they associate Blackberry with outdated and old technology. They still know the brand nonetheless.

[anthogag]

If fixing RIM was as simple as paying for a couple more commercials, don't you think they would have done that already?




Just about everyone I know has an idea what Blackberry is. I've never heard of someone saying, "Blackberry? What the heck is that?" Nowadays, they associate Blackberry with outdated and old technology. They still know the brand nonetheless.

In my experience people barely know more than BB is a smartphone brand

[iN8ter]

I'm not talking about the last incarnation of windows mobile where they tried to make everything a widget, the versions before were behaving exactly like a PC and the OS and apps were powerfull.

For example on my HTC M700 that I had before the first iphone came out, had a free app that could set the phone behavior for every cell tower you wanted, at home turn gps off, turn wifi on, turn signal to 2G etc. Any cell tower was customisable. FREE app or "program" as it used to be called.

You could load big apps from CDs if you wanted, I installed TomTom and all the maps were on the memory card, no streaming of maps needed.

Microsoft didn't try to make anything a widget, all they did was introduce a Widget framework that was similar to the Weather and Stock apps in iOS. You said the Hardware couldn't keep up. That is incorrect since there were phones with hardware on par or better than iPhones running Windows Mobile. The issue was the software. Windows Mobile didn't change much from 5-6.5, TBQH. There were changes, but the core/base OS as well as the user interface remained largely the same.

The HD2 had WiFi HotSpot and all kinds of crap on it. That's nice and all, but the OS was terrible - plain and simple. That's why it's gone. RIM should have scrapped their terrible OS before Microsoft scrapped theirs, to salvage their marketshare leak (they had More to lose than Microsoft did by the time WP7 was being released).

Windows Mobile with HTC Sense, TouchFlow 3D, TouchWiz, whatever was still Windows Mobile. You could even disable HTC Sense with one option on the HD2 and it would look like any other touchscreen Windows Mobile device. Windows Mobile didn't even natively support Multi-Touch, and the Browser was at best on par with BBOS5's browser (HTC baked in Opera Mobile 9 and made it the default to ease that pain).

There were so many things wrong with it. Windows Mobile was great at Synching with Windows PCs (ActiveSync, WMDC) and Exchange. That's why it was popular (when it was popular). That's it.

[dodger_moore]

Sorry if it's already been said, but does no one else think the OP just posted an incendiary topic title so he could put a link in his sig?

[vtpmt81]

RIM's problem is that their current phone OS is hard for devs to code for and that they keep releasing half-baked devices.

They launch the Storm with OS 4...what a disaster. The Storm 2 is their chance to get it right and Verizon decides to get an exclusive and what happens? The Storm 2 is another device that has mediocre OS builds, double clicking issues, memory leaks, reqires quickpull if you have more than a handful of apps, etc.

The Blackberry tour was another disaster of a phone. Thank goodness for the 9650.

The torch 9800 was a solid phone but the OG droid and iphone 3gs had similar specs and they were both released in 2009! This is the phone that Jim Basilile said would change the game. If you try to multitask on your torch, you will see the spinning clock.

RIM is just way behind on everything. Why wait for them when Android and Apple are offering more on their devices?

Cheap data plans overseas and BBM are the reasons why RIM is gaining subscribers.

[belfastdispatcher]

RIM's problem is that their current phone OS is hard for devs to code for and that they keep releasing half-baked devices.

They launch the Storm with OS 4...what a disaster. The Storm 2 is their chance to get it right and Verizon decides to get an exclusive and what happens? The Storm 2 is another device that has mediocre OS builds, double clicking issues, memory leaks, reqires quickpull if you have more than a handful of apps, etc.

The Blackberry tour was another disaster of a phone. Thank goodness for the 9650.

The torch 9800 was a solid phone but the OG droid and iphone 3gs had similar specs and they were both released in 2009! This is the phone that Jim Basilile said would change the game. If you try to multitask on your torch, you will see the spinning clock.

RIM is just way behind on everything. Why wait for them when Android and Apple are offering more on their devices?

Cheap data plans overseas and BBM are the reasons why RIM is gaining subscribers.

Rim has always been behind in specs. Name one thing Rim was first to put on their phones besides push email.

Why all of the sudden must the compete in specs?

[vtpmt81]

Rim has always been behind in specs. Name one thing Rim was first to put on their phones besides push email.

Why all of the sudden must the compete in specs?

RIM delayed their OS7 phones because the 800 ghz processor won't cut it for a high end device.

Specs matter on a phone when it comes to web browsing and gaming and since US customers carw about both, RIM needs to as well.

[TGR1]

Rim has always been behind in specs. Name one thing Rim was first to put on their phones besides push email.

Why all of the sudden must the compete in specs?

They shouldn't try because they will lose to the frenzied Android update crowd. But they do need other useful features, i.e. software and services, to offer. RIM has some but they are stagnating here, which makes me think that while Mike L is brilliant he may not be appropriate for a CE ideas man.

[moretreelessbush]

Too many models and confusing naming.

[belfastdispatcher]

They shouldn't try because they will lose to the frenzied Android update crowd. But they do need other useful features, i.e. software and services, to offer. RIM has some but they are stagnating here, which makes me think that while Mike L is brilliant he may not be appropriate for a CE ideas man.

Not stagnating at all: Bridge, Fusion, Protect, Balance, BBM Connected Apps, BBM Music, Blackberry Management Centre, WIFI Music Itunes Sync etc

All amazing services that get overlooked.

[TGR1]

Not stagnating at all: Bridge, Fusion, Protect, Balance, BBM Connected Apps, BBM Music, Blackberry Management Centre, WIFI Music Itunes Sync etc

All amazing services that get overlooked.

In your opinion they are sufficient but to the majority of non-BB owners they clearly aren't enough. Looking at that list, they are nice but not all different from what other platforms offer and nothing compelling. Nothing that makes me or others I know think, "Hmm, that is actually pretty nice..."

So, stagnating.

Does RIM want me, a non-BB user, to become a customer? The only thing there I am remotely interested in is Protect and that by itself is not enough to draw me back to the platform for my secondary phone despite my extreme unstickiness to Android/WP7.

Like Mike L, I think you are perhaps not an ideas guy for the consumer electronic market either

[avt123]

Rim has always been behind in specs. Name one thing Rim was first to put on their phones besides push email.

Why all of the sudden must the compete in specs?

The Bold 9000 was NOT behind in specs besides the lack of a GPU. The 9000 was on par with almost every high end smartphone out at that time.

[belfastdispatcher]

The Bold 9000 was NOT behind in specs besides the lack of a GPU. The 9000 was on par with almost every high end smartphone out at that time.

Yeah but it wasn't the first to have anything and at the time winmo phones and symbian were more powerful and had ff camera and all.

[belfastdispatcher]

In your opinion they are sufficient but to the majority of non-BB owners they clearly aren't enough. Looking at that list, they are nice but not all different from what other platforms offer and nothing compelling. Nothing that makes me or others I know think, "Hmm, that is actually pretty nice..."

So, stagnating.

Does RIM want me, a non-BB user, to become a customer? The only thing there I am remotely interested in is Protect and that by itself is not enough to draw me back to the platform for my secondary phone despite my extreme unstickiness to Android/WP7.

Like Mike L, I think you are perhaps not an ideas guy for the consumer electronic market either

You're looking at it as a finite market, for somebody to join BB they would have to leave another platform when that's not the case.

Every year there's a new generation getting a mobile phone and dumb phone market is still bigger then the smartphone market, all potential future BB users.

[avt123]

Yeah but it wasn't the first to have anything and at the time winmo phones and symbian were more powerful and had ff camera and all.

Yes but it was still powerful and the processor speed was top notch for the time. There has not been a single BB since then to offer something spec wise that is comparable to what the Bold offered back then. It has been the only BB since that time that has been competitive with specs.

[belfastdispatcher]

Yes but it was still powerful and the processor speed was top notch for the time. There has not been a single BB since then to offer something spec wise that is comparable to what the Bold offered back then. It has been the only BB since that time that has been competitive with specs.

I'm not disputing that, Rim was never first with any new specs, that's the point. I loved the 9000 until I fried it with a portable battery charger

[avt123]

I'm not disputing that, Rim was never first with any new specs, that's the point. I loved the 9000 until I fried it with a portable battery charger

I agree that RIM wasn't the first with specs. I was just disputing the fact that you were saying RIM has always been behind. With the Bold 9000 that wasn't the case. Best BB ever IMO.

[TGR1]

You're looking at it as a finite market, for somebody to join BB they would have to leave another platform when that's not the case.

Every year there's a new generation getting a mobile phone and dumb phone market is still bigger then the smartphone market, all potential future BB users.

I am definitely not treating this as a finite market but for the sake of argument let's use your test case of dumbphone customers. When said customer enters the store, what are a BB's selling points? Price, hardware, software, services? Support? Extras? What draws my eyes away from all the pretty and cheap Androids or that even prettier iPhone (disclaimer: totally IMO, my bias, so there!) with what they offer? Even assuming the customer gets a fine upstanding sales clerk unswayed by the monetary inducement to push Android, I just don't think BBs offer an attractive alternative. The unique things that might be valuable (BBM, Bridge) all require additional or previous investment in RIM by the customer or their circle so they don't have general appeal.

Also, whether from a dumb, smart, or C-student phone, I am still a potential customer (this is for my secondary phone). I dislike my Android experience, think WP7 UI is ugly even though Nokia hardware is lovely, actually have nostalgic ties to BB as it was the first smartphone I owned and totally sold me forever on the concept, and want a Canadian tech company to succeed. Wouldn't you say I am an incredibly easy sell for RIM to target? But I look at the phones and apps and services and say "Ehh" and remain up for sale to whatever phone vendor wants me. I am sure I am not unique.

[Maliberti]

RIM needs at least one big feature they can use to lure consumers interest and get them hooked on the BBOS, imo as of right now BBM music can have the potential to do that, I'm testing it out right now myself and still learning how to use it, but so far I think they're on to something good.

I think it;s to late with BBM as well. iTunes and Google music will dominate and BM will go to the curb.

only my opinion,.

[Laura Knotek]

You're looking at it as a finite market, for somebody to join BB they would have to leave another platform when that's not the case.

Every year there's a new generation getting a mobile phone and dumb phone market is still bigger then the smartphone market, all potential future BB users.

I am definitely not treating this as a finite market but for the sake of argument let's use your test case of dumbphone customers. When said customer enters the store, what are a BB's selling points? Price, hardware, software, services? Support? Extras? What draws my eyes away from all the pretty and cheap Androids or that even prettier iPhone (disclaimer: totally IMO, my bias, so there!) with what they offer? Even assuming the customer gets a fine upstanding sales clerk unswayed by the monetary inducement to push Android, I just don't think BBs offer an attractive alternative. The unique things that might be valuable (BBM, Bridge) all require additional or previous investment in RIM by the customer or their circle so they don't have general appeal.

Also, whether from a dumb, smart, or C-student phone, I am still a potential customer (this is for my secondary phone). I dislike my Android experience, think WP7 UI is ugly even though Nokia hardware is lovely, actually have nostalgic ties to BB as it was the first smartphone I owned and totally sold me forever on the concept, and want a Canadian tech company to succeed. Wouldn't you say I am an incredibly easy sell for RIM to target? But I look at the phones and apps and services and say "Ehh" and remain up for sale to whatever phone vendor wants me. I am sure I am not unique.

I think a lot of former dumbphone users who are getting their first smartphones would be interested in prepaid, at least in the US, given the current economic situation.

Virgin Mobile is one prepaid carrier that has been doing a lot of advertising. Whenever I watch NFL games, I always see Virgin Mobile ads, and those ads are always for Android devices, even though Virgin Mobile does sell BlackBerry.

On a whim just now, I decided to visit Virgin Mobile's homepage, and this was prominent at the top of the page.

[PineappleUnderTheSea]

(1) In 2010, Jim Balsillie said something like "You don't need apps, the web is good enough", then he professed his love for Flash, and finally predicted that apps would be a disappearing fad.
(2) And because of (1), RIM focused on the international market, while believing that the US Market was pretty much all set.

That pretty much explains it all to me. International market is going pretty well (Apple is now focusing on that as well), but they misjudged the average US consumer.

[palmless]

He also said this. Read it and MARVEL that the stock didn't plummet that very day:

Yeah on the iPhone touch, I mean I don’t know, we do a lot of focused groups in what we do, there’s a lot of market research in what we do, we had a lot of market research from our customers in the markets on what the market expects from a solution. However, there has been some debate previous on graffiti and different touch and tactility things and [mechanical] vulnerability costs and battery kind of things and tactility things. I think the best thing will be that for these things to just get in to market and get going, and its just there’s just so many dimensions in our space happen sometimes people over define the category like its all about for so at last its all about the keyboard or its all about some input mechanism or its all about music play or something.
And I think it’s a bit of multi-dimensional, it is a lot of multi-dimensional conversion space that we play in and it tends to be iterative and evolutionary. My experience is one person may be make a baby in nine months, nine people can’t make a baby in one month. But who knows may be some natural constructs can be shifted and we’ll have to revive those views and they can shorten these realities. But I think the best thing, the good thing is this, there is a lot of attention to this space, its growing the space, its validating extensions to the space. On a leadership positions, we see the growth current — and really keep it up and meant some go in the future. And that’s really what I focus on. I am not really want to play a gamesmanship, my input mechanisms funkier than your input mechanism.
We’re really focused on compelling user experience the highly aligned relationships with the carriers and a tremendous amount of channel support and service support and care, and application extension, because our experience is there is a lot of heavy lifting there. And beyond that I can’t say as I really pay that much attention to all these little dynamics because it doesn’t help me, help my customers and help and channels more and so let it be what it will be.
In terms of pricing of (inaudible) Curve sometimes they do special promos for new products, sometime they are slightly lower cost structure for us to make them. A lot of good carriers special programs and positioning, they excited and see an opportunity and sometime cause things for us and you also can see it kind of service plan they bundle to it and that kind of ads they allow to it. So, and different piece of hardware priced differently in different markets for us so, but the 8800 is a little more expensive in the Curve but its delightful to see the carriers pricing the Curve so aggressively because, my experience is when they do this it should actually takes two or three months for the momentum to really sort of kick in the gear.
So if you start doing stuff like that in May, you generally start to really, the channel as we get bigger are kind of slow train are coming but comes sort of midish August, they really start gathering speed and then you can ride that through the back to school and the sort of Christmas kind of phase so, that’s we are pleased to see it and I don’t know if the 8800 that’ll shift that way maybe, maybe not, there’s just so many different programs and so many strategies. Its hard for me to sort of generalize it all.


Read more: All The Dumb Things RIM's CEOs Said While Apple And Android Ate Their Lunch

[Moonbase0ne]

He also said this. Read it and MARVEL that the stock didn't plummet that very day:

Yeah on the iPhone touch, I mean I don’t know, we do a lot of focused groups in what we do, there’s a lot of market research in what we do, we had a lot of market research from our customers in the markets on what the market expects from a solution. However, there has been some debate previous on graffiti and different touch and tactility things and [mechanical] vulnerability costs and battery kind of things and tactility things. I think the best thing will be that for these things to just get in to market and get going, and its just there’s just so many dimensions in our space happen sometimes people over define the category like its all about for so at last its all about the keyboard or its all about some input mechanism or its all about music play or something.
And I think it’s a bit of multi-dimensional, it is a lot of multi-dimensional conversion space that we play in and it tends to be iterative and evolutionary. My experience is one person may be make a baby in nine months, nine people can’t make a baby in one month. But who knows may be some natural constructs can be shifted and we’ll have to revive those views and they can shorten these realities. But I think the best thing, the good thing is this, there is a lot of attention to this space, its growing the space, its validating extensions to the space. On a leadership positions, we see the growth current — and really keep it up and meant some go in the future. And that’s really what I focus on. I am not really want to play a gamesmanship, my input mechanisms funkier than your input mechanism.
We’re really focused on compelling user experience the highly aligned relationships with the carriers and a tremendous amount of channel support and service support and care, and application extension, because our experience is there is a lot of heavy lifting there. And beyond that I can’t say as I really pay that much attention to all these little dynamics because it doesn’t help me, help my customers and help and channels more and so let it be what it will be.
In terms of pricing of (inaudible) Curve sometimes they do special promos for new products, sometime they are slightly lower cost structure for us to make them. A lot of good carriers special programs and positioning, they excited and see an opportunity and sometime cause things for us and you also can see it kind of service plan they bundle to it and that kind of ads they allow to it. So, and different piece of hardware priced differently in different markets for us so, but the 8800 is a little more expensive in the Curve but its delightful to see the carriers pricing the Curve so aggressively because, my experience is when they do this it should actually takes two or three months for the momentum to really sort of kick in the gear.
So if you start doing stuff like that in May, you generally start to really, the channel as we get bigger are kind of slow train are coming but comes sort of midish August, they really start gathering speed and then you can ride that through the back to school and the sort of Christmas kind of phase so, that’s we are pleased to see it and I don’t know if the 8800 that’ll shift that way maybe, maybe not, there’s just so many different programs and so many strategies. Its hard for me to sort of generalize it all.


Read more: All The Dumb Things RIM's CEOs Said While Apple And Android Ate Their Lunch

Wow. Good read. I think what SJ said about passing RIM(from the link) was pretty harsh.


War Is All We Know