07-25-13 04:35 AM
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  1. kraschute's Avatar
    As a very dissapointed and frustrated PB owner I've already heared it again and again that I should just accept that the ubercool new saviour of this company, BB10, requires 2GB of RAM. The "sparrows (CB team & forum members) were already whistling it from the roofs" as we say in Germany and already prepared the path for Thorsten with his excuses: " yes you were right, it was the outdated hardware, bla bla bla and so on"...

    While it has been the unquestioned truth for many BBRY defenders in this forum, I wonder how ignorant a fanbase must bee to ignore the fact that a 2GB requirement would successfully block BBRY out of the low entry market! Of course the arguments come that BBRY targets the premium market, etc. but then explain me why...

    - BBRY hired Alicia keys...
    - Tries to raise awareness as consumer product not only a business tool
    - releases another BBOS 7 device
    - Runs after consumers in Indonesia where you can't sell your premium devices

    All these examples leave a pretty strange picture of the whole BB10 strategy. Fact seems to be that they need to cater the low entry & at least the mid-range market as well and they obviously try to but they FAIL! This articles just explains it very good:

    The mid-range BlackBerry Q5 is far too pricey at $400 to compete with the $100 Android QWERTY devices now flooding Asian markets. BlackBerry needs a $200 model out there this autumn and there is absolutely no indication that such a device getting close to production right now. In fact, according to a recent BGR exclusive, the only new BlackBerry 10 phone left on the 2013 roadmap is the high-end BlackBerry A10 that will square up against the likes of the iPhone 5S, the Galaxy Note III and other top-tier phones this fall.
    BlackBerry Market Share: Why BlackBerry needs entry-level BB10 phone | BGR
    Now many people that are not blinded anymore by all the BB10 buzz (A lot of PB owners had an eye-opening moment in the last weeks) already brought many techically valid arguments that all other mobile OS run perfectly with 1GB. No one doubts that more RAM is always nice, but an OS requiring 2GB stands out and must be named what it is - a clear FAIL to renew this company with a fresh new OS.

    Does anyone else here really believe that BBRY will finally sell more phones with the Aristo which will arrive overprized at the market with just some specs updates? Ofcourse die hard BBRY fans will add it to their collection and a few more. But the Aristo won't be a game changer and I do not see a entry device with BB10 after the whole Playbook debacle...

    And yes, the Playbook could have still been a success story for them - a low entry device for many. People, attracted just by the low price, would have suddenyl held a BB10 device in their hands generating more sells because of the feeling this company delivers and you get something for your money. The investment to streamlining BB10 would have payed back because of the opportunity to serve also the entry & mid-range market.

    All that is left now is a fat cow somewhere alone at the opposite corner of the field with a hefty price tag on it :-)
    Last edited by kraschute; 07-24-13 at 05:59 AM. Reason: Made title clearer hopefully
    07-23-13 06:39 PM
  2. tjseaman's Avatar
    My BlackBerry Z10 is going strong and running great. I think you're still just bitter about the PlayBook not getting BB10. I'm over it. My PlayBook is what it is. BB10 is awesome so far and is getting better with every update

    Posted via Z10 and CB10 on Rogers
    07-23-13 07:09 PM
  3. Cynycl's Avatar
    Don't question anything less you be branded a troll by the "faithful"
    JeepBB, Carterbits and mikeo007 like this.
    07-23-13 07:21 PM
  4. geoffsdad's Avatar
    Buck up little camper. It?s not like your dog died or your parents got a divorce. It?s just a tablet.

    Posted via CB10 on my Z10 featuring BBM Channel C0002FE04
    07-23-13 07:29 PM
  5. BCITMike's Avatar
    Bloatware: Software whose usefulness is reduced because of the excessive disk-space and memory it requires.

    The OP doesn't make one mention of how BB10 is 'bloatware' other than saying BB10 needs 2GB. He bitches about how Blackberry has given up on Playbook, but that doesn't mean BB10 is bloatware.

    Bottom line, its a waste of resources for forward development to constantly have to backport and test functionality on the reduced hardware specs. It just slows down development and QA to have to test the worst case scenario (PB) vs the intended targets (phones). Would you want to have to fail a QA cycle and delay the release of a Z10 feature because it doesn't run properly on the Playbook? Or a developer supporting a new resolution?

    Overall, killing off Playbook support means that BB10 can move forward without having been slowed down by legacy devices or features.
    ryanza likes this.
    07-23-13 07:31 PM
  6. Gray's Avatar
    You've already posted this exact rant several times. Move on already.
    SK122387 and ryanza like this.
    07-23-13 07:32 PM
  7. web99's Avatar
    The OP is entitled to his opinion, but I disagree with some of his main points

    Ie. BB10 being too pricy.
    - BBRY had to price the device taking into account all the R&D and development costs associated with launching a brand new platform. It would be foolish of them to under price the device.

    - Hiring Alicia Keys
    - I don't have an issue with BBRY hiring her. She is a very successful artist with a huge following. I think where BBRY went wrong is the way they have been using her in their marketing efforts.

    - where I agree with you is regarding the Playbook. BBRY should never have promised BB10 for it. What they should have done is to commit to updates to fix some of the problems.
    - Restoring full BlackBerry bridge functionality with the Z10 and Q10
    - Improving the browser speed, etc

    Where I question the OP is where he says that BBRY needs to cater to the low entry and mid-range market. BBRY has already released the Q5. On the low entry market, there is no way they could effectively compete with the cheap $100 and $150 Android devices out there.

    What the OP keeps forgetting is that the BB10 was a necessity. BBOS was originally built for 2 way pagers and had been hacked and tweaked to accommodate all the functionality that it has. It had been taken as far as it could. The only option to move forward was a new OS. The BB10 platform gives BBRY the ability to add the add the functionality and features necessary to at least give it a shot at regaining profitability and some market-share in the smartphone industry. For me my Z10 is a huge improvement over my previous 9800 Torch.

    Anyway these are my thoughts.

    Posted via CB10 from my spectacular Z10
    Last edited by web99; 07-23-13 at 08:22 PM.
    07-23-13 08:08 PM
  8. MasterOfBinary's Avatar
    Bloatware: Software whose usefulness is reduced because of the excessive disk-space and memory it requires.

    The OP doesn't make one mention of how BB10 is 'bloatware' other than saying BB10 needs 2GB. He bitches about how Blackberry has given up on Playbook, but that doesn't mean BB10 is bloatware.
    Bloatware may not be the right word for it, but you can't deny that the OS is pretty inefficient compared to BB's competition.

    Bottom line, its a waste of resources for forward development to constantly have to backport and test functionality on the reduced hardware specs. It just slows down development and QA to have to test the worst case scenario (PB) vs the intended targets (phones). Would you want to have to fail a QA cycle and delay the release of a Z10 feature because it doesn't run properly on the Playbook? Or a developer supporting a new resolution?
    Agree. I personally don't care at all that the BB10 on PB was scrapped, I've said before that it didn't make sense to keep supporting such an old device that very few people have.

    Overall, killing off Playbook support means that BB10 can move forward without having been slowed down by legacy devices or features.
    If only. The Bold 9720 or whatever means they aren't exactly moving forward.
    mikeo007 likes this.
    07-23-13 08:33 PM
  9. Acidwire's Avatar
    theres also bloatware in the sense that once you delete a preloaded app you never use its forced back to you every single time in a mini update
    07-23-13 10:20 PM
  10. sparkaction's Avatar
    OP does have a point in that if BB10 needs 2GB of will keep the OS from competing in the lower end market. This could be one of the many reasons why a refreshed bb7 device is being released.
    07-23-13 10:36 PM
  11. Crackberrykills's Avatar
    You've already posted this exact rant several times. Move on already.
    Indeed. Copy and paste rants. I love those.
    07-23-13 10:41 PM
  12. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Bloatware.... lol I don't think you know what it means...

    Sent from my BB10 smartphone.
    07-23-13 10:45 PM
  13. MrRJ's Avatar
    Bloatware.... lol I don't think you know what it means...

    Sent from my BB10 smartphone.
    I think the OP was spot on with what he meant. By mentioning the term 'bloatware' and continuing on to mention that the OS appears inneficient as it needs 2GB ram, he backed up his claim of 'bloatware'.

    I think it's a very good point. It seems to have been the accepted rule that QNX is a very efficient OS, but recent developments have shown quite the contrary.

    Posted via CB10
    mikeo007, imz, JeepBB and 4 others like this.
    07-24-13 02:41 AM
  14. sigint99's Avatar
    It's been made clear before but some people just don't get it.

    QNX is the microkernel. OS10 is the userland and its subsystems. QNX's efficiency stemmed from its small size and use in embedded devices. A smartphone requires considerably more functionality than this hence the "bloat" that encompasses OS10. The mere fact that OS10 is deployed on phones with 2GB doesn't mean it's inefficient. The efficiency of OS10 relates to its performance and functionality which as most users will attest is quite fluid and snappy.
    07-24-13 03:06 AM
  15. imz's Avatar
    I'm quite happy with my Z10, Playbook is OK, use it sometimes for browsing.

    The OP does have a point in some respects.

    BB10 requires hardware which, in all fairness prices them out of the low-end / emerging markets, hence the new OS7 device.

    So, we have BB10 which is too pricey for low-end.
    BB10, the Aristo with hardware that's too low to be considered High-end.

    Thus, BB10 is a mediocre device, it appeals to no one.

    In consumers mind when they shop they...

    1) want a cheap but usable phone (low end nokia / androids)
    2) want the best of the best (iphone / high end androids [samsung s3/s4])
    3) some other factors too but above are the main 2, and BB does not fit in, not even with the Aristo, its a mid range device with a larger screen, that does not give it a high-end status by default, it may be Blackberry's "Flagship", but its the Industries "Average", and its not even out yet.

    I could be wrong, but I'm not, the BBRY numbers prove my point with respects to sales and who is buying what
    07-24-13 03:21 AM
  16. texazzpete's Avatar
    My BlackBerry Z10 is going strong and running great. I think you're still just bitter about the PlayBook not getting BB10. I'm over it. My PlayBook is what it is. BB10 is awesome so far and is getting better with every update

    Posted via Z10 and CB10 on Rogers

    This is not just about the PlayBook. This is about Blackberry's inability to bring a low cost device to the market. This, IMHO, is the biggest threat BlackBerry faces right now.

    BlackBerry had > 50% of the smartphone market in Nigeria early last year in terms of sales. I sincerely doubt that's up to 25% now. Cheap $200 Android smartphones from Tecno et al are sweeping sales...selling in hundreds of thousands of units. When BBM comes to Android, this rate will quadruple.

    Indonesia has more than 12 million BB users...many of them wielding cheaper Curves. What's the defence against the flood of cheap Android devices? $160 Android phones come from China with Quad core CPUs and capable GPUs, running jellybean so you can be sure they'll get BBM. With Android data plans dropping and BBM going multiplatform, what's BB got to keep former users in?

    Same situation in India (sales of homemade, cheap but powerful Android phones have exploded), Thailand and the Philippines.

    Despite all the cheery articles from CrackBerry, I'll tell you that it is extreme folly to release BBM on Android with no low cost device running on a modern OS to keep users locked in.

    why can't we get a cheap BB10 device? Because BB10 in its current state is too bloated to run well on anything less than 2GB RAM. But why is this so? Hence this topic.

    So it isn't just about the PlayBook. But don't take my word for it...you'll probably see this effect anyway when BB continues to lose subscribers for the next few quarters and sales of the BB10 devices in the market begin to tail off.
    notfanboy, JeepBB and mikeo007 like this.
    07-24-13 03:41 AM
  17. texazzpete's Avatar
    And to buttress my earlier point

    Why BB10 is BloatWare-1.jpg

    This is a Lenovo A820, sold for $133. Nearly $250 cheaper than the Q5.

    It is Dual SIM, has a bigger screen (4.5 inches, 960 x 540), runs jellybean, has a faster CPU (mediatek 6789 quad core) and a better GPU (SGX 543). It has a better 8MP camera and has a pretty decent build quality (Lenovo isn't a minor player)

    So a customer in Indonesia has the chance to buy a better specced phone which allows him use two SIMs at once, has a FAR better app library and will have BBM in September...for $250 less! Why in the world would the Q5 be more attractive to him? Even with 10.2, the BB10 fragmentation issue and the fact that many sideloaded Android apps will look like pants on that square screen spoils the deal.

    And this is just one of many. So when you sneer at 'cheap android phones', it's a good idea to note that those have improved massively since those days of 600mhz devices with 256MB RAM and no GPU.


    The combination of the new Verizon Droid devices, Moto X (rumoured to be priced to sell in volume), Galaxy Note III, LG Optimus G2, Galaxy S4 and most importantly the upcoming new iPhone will pretty much doom the Z10/Q10/A10 to lackluster sales in the US and UK. Salvation and numbers lie in bolstering weak high end sales with low and midrange sales to boost marketshare and draw in more developers. If the OS is preventing such a push, why are you not concerned?
    07-24-13 03:59 AM
  18. kraschute's Avatar
    Bloatware.... lol I don't think you know what it means...

    Sent from my BB10 smartphone.
    I know what is is and might fit perfectly here. I consider it as bloatware because they put too frameworks, etc. together on top of QNX without really optimising that. But lets call it "bloated"! That describes it probably much better.
    07-24-13 05:40 AM
  19. kraschute's Avatar
    I think the OP was spot on with what he meant. By mentioning the term 'bloatware' and continuing on to mention that the OS appears inneficient as it needs 2GB ram, he backed up his claim of 'bloatware'.

    I think it's a very good point. It seems to have been the accepted rule that QNX is a very efficient OS, but recent developments have shown quite the contrary.

    Posted via CB10
    And I also do not believe it's QNX fault but how they assembled BB10 on top of it! I have no clue why a Nokia N9 with 1GB running mainly on Linux could do what a Playbook can't with better specs. I also don't find 2GB in a phone but an OS requireing more than 1 GB is damm inefficient!
    mikeo007 likes this.
    07-24-13 05:42 AM
  20. kraschute's Avatar
    And to buttress my earlier point

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The combination of the new Verizon Droid devices, Moto X (rumoured to be priced to sell in volume), Galaxy Note III, LG Optimus G2, Galaxy S4 and most importantly the upcoming new iPhone will pretty much doom the Z10/Q10/A10 to lackluster sales in the US and UK. Salvation and numbers lie in bolstering weak high end sales with low and midrange sales to boost marketshare and draw in more developers. If the OS is preventing such a push, why are you not concerned?
    Thanks, it's so obvious but CB Team and BB defenders are somehow blind in their love. It's the same story with NOKIA. Ony since they offer WP in devices for 200 EUR you can see mainstream peole picking it up - the people paying 600 EUR or more are loyalists and fanboys, but not the mass market. The Playbook (of course a loss) has just lowered the entry to buy a BlacbBerry product with BB10. It attracted new customers to BlackBerry 'ecosystem' and adding the PB to the BB10 environment would have attracted more new customers and held developers as consequence. A Playbook2 could have even been a success after the first failed approach on the tablet market. Now, who wants another tablet from BBRY?

    Now BBRY lockecked themselves in an ivory tower of prices, the hardware is premium but not top and the only reason for it is a ressource hungry BB10.
    07-24-13 05:56 AM
  21. darkehawke's Avatar
    And I also do not believe it's QNX fault but how they assembled BB10 on top of it! I have no clue why a Nokia N9 with 1GB running mainly on Linux could do what a Playbook can't with better specs. I also don't find 2GB in a phone but an OS requireing more than 1 GB is damm inefficient!
    This.
    Also I have to laugh at some people here. Blinded and biased does not begin to cover it.
    BlackBerry needs to work hard if they want to turn the disaster that is BlackBerry 10 into a success

    Posted via CB10
    JeepBB and mikeo007 like this.
    07-24-13 06:01 AM
  22. imz's Avatar
    Indonesia has more than 12 million BB users...many of them wielding cheaper Curves. What's the defence against the flood of cheap Android devices? $160 Android phones come from China with Quad core CPUs and capable GPUs, running jellybean so you can be sure they'll get BBM. With Android data plans dropping and BBM going multiplatform, what's BB got to keep former users in?

    Same situation in India (sales of homemade, cheap but powerful Android phones have exploded), Thailand and the Philippines.

    Despite all the cheery articles from CrackBerry, I'll tell you that it is extreme folly to release BBM on Android with no low cost device running on a modern OS to keep users locked in.
    I'm probably mistaken but.....

    1) Doesn't 4.2 require certain specs to run?
    2) Doesn't BBM require 4.2 and above to run on android? (yes)

    So potentially not all low-end android handsets will get BBM...
    web99 likes this.
    07-24-13 07:00 AM
  23. notfanboy's Avatar
    2) Doesn't BBM require 4.2 and above to run on android? (yes)
    Do you have a source for this? Is extremely unlikely that Blackberry would write BBM exclusively for 4.2. This would put BBM behind all of the other competition right out of the starting gate.
    mikeo007 likes this.
    07-24-13 07:13 AM
  24. Kris Erickson's Avatar
    releases another BBOS 7 device
    You realize that in many parts of the world, service providers networks aren't capable of handling BB10. For that reason to keep current BB users happy in the Legacy OS7 they are releasing a new phone for them.

    Tell you what, crack open your PC/Laptop, take a few sticks of Ram outta of it. Do you still see the same performance? IF you do guess your PC/Laptop has bloatware.
    BCITMike likes this.
    07-24-13 07:20 AM
  25. Taigatrommel's Avatar
    Kraschute has some very valid points in his rants, not only regarding the Playbook, which could've been a nice low-cost (or existing user) entry for BB10. It would've increased the numbers of BB10 users out there.
    The second point, which is very valid, is his opinion regarding the RAM requirements. In terms of competition we are not even talking about Android here, but Windows Phone too. Just take a look at those cheap Lumias, they only feature 512 MB of RAM, yet still run Windows Phone 8 in a decent way. Even the new Lumia 625 only comes with 512 MB to keep the price down. BlackBerry on the other hand side obviously requires their new devices to have 2 gigs of RAM, increasing the costs for both the company as well as consumers.

    Just think about the Q5: When it was launched, Thorsten specificly mentioned it to be a "budget device", which is aimed to compete in "emerging markets". What we got was a device clearly specced and at mid-level standards. Either they introduced it the wrong way or BlackBerry doesn't know what they are facing in those "emerging markets". The Q5 is not a bad phone, but it simply fails to succeed what it was introduced for: Compete in those emerging markets. Lower the price to 200$ max and things would look different. But those markets are getting flooded with decently specced, low-cost Androids from local companies. Even Windows Phone is taking in the battle here, with the only difference they can compete in price. The only thing BlackBerry has to compete in this pricerange are outdated Curves, which might've had their place in 2011, maybe even early 2012. But the competition simply advanced, while the Curves did not.
    07-24-13 07:27 AM
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