[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Well... Imo, fwiw (not much lol) they were far too eager to bleed too much loyal legacy in effort to pursue Apple loving "unicorns". Unicorns who resent ANY slight intrusion into their glass window... Even " the notch"... Lol. In what universe would the space occupied by PKB win those users over? ??

They were doomed to niche status the minute SJ's crew slipped the word "phone" after the "i". And we still call tablets with telephone capabilities patched on, " phones". Lol. We all needed to acknowledge and embrace that niche reality rather than cheer on BB's misguided pursuit of "sorta Apple". Imo.

I've personally long contended that RIM should have remained RIM and that BlackBerry line should've remained in enterprise/professional space. A consumer space product line might've been called "Blueberry" ? Or GlassBerry?? Or "BlackGlass" or ???? Lol.

Best strategy moving forward? Get glass lovers out of the design room and focus on the characteristics that made their last successful model, successful. ?? Give the real fans something they can cheer for and there's a chance THEY can prove a valuable "free" sales force. Long shot, at this point.

Even enterprise saw the value of having apps...

The market for devices that are locked down and don't need much in the way of apps, is still there.... but is it viable?

For the old RIM, were smartphones ever really the product? Or was it those Service Access Fees fro BIS and BES users?

Make a $100 on a one time hardware sale, or make $100 YoY for three-four plus years on Services?

The "unicorn" seems to be the perfect PKB phone that meets all users needs and it affordable.... Many of the fans turned their noises up at the last seven BlackBerry PKB phones.

[Elephant_Canyon]

Best strategy moving forward? Get glass lovers out of the design room and focus on the characteristics that made their last successful model, successful.

What made their last sales model successful was being the only provider of mobile email and free messaging when wireless data was 2G and SMS plans were expensive. That, plus momentum that kept them going for a few years of 3G data.

[Emaderton3]

What made their last sales model successful was being the only provider of mobile email and free messaging when wireless data was 2G and SMS plans were expensive. That, plus momentum that kept them going for a few years of 3G data.

And that is long gone with profits on actual devices razor thin. I don't see how you could blame them this point. And now Pie will offer gestures. So all everyone really seems to be pushing for is a keyboard . . .

[Chuck Finley69]

All I want is a 9900 or Q10 sized device with a physical keyboard and trackpad. I don't think I'm alone in that desire.

Unfortunately, while >1, numbers are below what’s necessary to support larger PKB, the # is even lower for smaller PKB at this point. Titan has an offering for you but it’s larger.

[idssteve]

Unfortunately, while >1, numbers are below what’s necessary to support larger PKB, the # is even lower for smaller PKB at this point. Titan has an offering for you but it’s larger.

That's the point. Where is the experience and/or research indicating that a 9900 sized TOOLBELT pkb handset should be less popular than the crippled giants we've been fed since 2012... ?? How many of the 2014 re-intro'd 99's languished in "fire sales" ? Just because bigger slabs outsell smaller ones, should it automatically follow that bigger PKB should outsell smaller PKB? What's happened to sales with each increase in chassis size since 2011??

[idssteve]

Even enterprise saw the value of having apps...

The market for devices that are locked down and don't need much in the way of apps, is still there.... but is it viable?

For the old RIM, were smartphones ever really the product? Or was it those Service Access Fees fro BIS and BES users?

Make a $100 on a one time hardware sale, or make $100 YoY for three-four plus years on Services?

The "unicorn" seems to be the perfect PKB phone that meets all users needs and it affordable.... Many of the fans turned their noises up at the last seven BlackBerry PKB phones.

Exquisit hardware, likely sold at a loss, was a "hook" supporting their high margin SAF model. Many of us pay subscriptions for all manner of things like antivirus, VPN, etc... $100 per year, or even per month, for continued BIS (or some similar hardware VPN product) AND excellent hardware to support it, would be a bargain for folks like me. Enough of us? TBD. Lol.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Exquisit hardware, likely sold at a loss, was a "hook" supporting their high margin SAF model. Many of us pay subscriptions for all manner of things like antivirus, VPN, etc... $100 per year, or even per month, for continued BIS (or some similar hardware VPN product) AND excellent hardware to support it, would be a bargain for folks like me. Enough of us? TBD. Lol.

TBD?

[brookie229]

TBD?

To be determined?

[idssteve]

TBD?

Yep... likely never determined, atp. The swimmer has exausted themselves swimming the wrong direction, imo. Fwiw.

[brookie229]

Yep... likely never determined, atp. The swimmer has exausted themselves swimming the wrong direction, imo. Fwiw.

Wnunba?

[Bbnivende]

It's called adequate ROI that warranted licencing in the first place.

The agreement was made between two unrelated companies acting in their own best interests. Motivation is not relevant.

ROI for BlackBerry Ltd is not relevant either. The revenue BlackBerry receives in total from TCL was much greater than their on going costs.

TCL obviously did not do their homework. They were not able to offer a competitive all touch phone under the BlackBerry brand - the BlackBerry fees added cost and very little compensating value for most consumers , enterprise and carriers.

PKB consumers were willing to pay what TCL was charging but ultimately the market is too small and it appears that TCL is losing money on each device.

Currently TCL is considering whether or not they should make and sell the Key 3. They probably want some sort of break in their BlackBerry fees to make this happen.

I suspect that both TCL and BlackBerry just want to move on. BlackBerry Secure has been a flop. No all touch phones have BlackBerry Secure and the PKB market is small and shrinking.

There is still a chance that the BlackBerry form factor might carry on . Could be a high priced boutique offering or a low priced low spec offering like a Kaios phone.

Maybe BlackBerry and TCL might come together and make the Key3 possible but it seems very unlikely.

TCL will not be offering a mid-tier all touch BlackBerry and BlackBerry Ltd primarily wants to sell products and services to Enterprise customers.

[conite]

ROI for BlackBerry Ltd is not relevant either. The revenue BlackBerry receives in total from TCL was much greater than their on going costs.

You have absolutely no way to even assess that.

You don't know what BlackBerry got up front, you don't know what BlackBerry gets per unit, and you don't know what BlackBerry's fixed costs are for developing and updating the OS.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

To be determined?

Yeah I got that part... what I didn't get is what yet needs to be determined about a continuing BIS and excellent hardware to support it?

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Yep... likely never determined, atp. The swimmer has exausted themselves swimming the wrong direction, imo. Fwiw.

It was get out of the water or swim the other way....

Either way I don't think BIS nor BBOS devices were going to be around at this point.

[Sigewif]

In 5 years when Tim Cook is pushing a walker and being spoon fed apple sauce while contemplating final things, and Google is eating its tail, BlackBerry will still be BlackBerry.

I know I know...a Bold prediction, that's likely to raise a Storm, but that's straight from the Playbook, with no Leap of Faith quite yet. Will it be the Passport to finer things in Classic style? I Dtek that maybe it will. While I am not Priv-ey to such things...There you have it, from A-Z30. Now do we have time for Q10's & Answers? Let the Spark(s) fly.

The KEY2 my heart would be set in Motion by a new device--especially a slider.

[idssteve]

It was get out of the water or swim the other way....

Either way I don't think BIS nor BBOS devices were going to be around at this point.

Hard to argue with that...

btw, if you meant BIS/BBOS devices weren't going to be produced & sold by BlackBerry at this point, that is totally, factually, correct.

They are, however, still "around" at THIS point. Clearly still valued by SOMEone. Like myself. Lol.
Missing 99 right now... getting really frustrated fighting this monster LE. Keeps my posts short, at least!! Haha...

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Hard to argue with that...

btw, if you meant BIS/BBOS devices weren't going to be produced & sold by BlackBerry at this point, that is totally, factually, correct.

They are, however, still "around" at THIS point. Clearly still valued by SOMEone. Like myself. Lol.
Missing 99 right now... getting really frustrated fighting this monster LE. Keeps my posts short, at least!! Haha...

I meant current as in a viable product line....

[ppeters914]

In 5 years when Tim Cook is pushing a walker and being spoon fed apple sauce while contemplating final things, and Google is eating its tail, BlackBerry will still be BlackBerry.

I know I know...a Bold prediction, that's likely to raise a Storm, but that's straight from the Playbook, with no Leap of Faith quite yet. Will it be the Passport to finer things in Classic style? I Dtek that maybe it will. While I am not Priv-ey to such things...There you have it, from A-Z30. Now do we have time for Q10's & Answers? Let the Spark(s) fly.

Well done, sir. Bravo!

[Bbnivende]

You have absolutely no way to even assess that.

You don't know what BlackBerry got up front, you don't know what BlackBerry gets per unit, and you don't know what BlackBerry's fixed costs are for developing and updating the OS.

No ,I do not know but neither do you.

We do know that the Dtek50 , Aurora, Evolve and the Motion were priced quite a bit higher than comparable phones. So much so, that all sold poorly.

When a company monetizes its IP, usually their ongoing costs are minimal. Yes, BlackBerry would have some ongoing costs but those costs are partially defrayed by the sale of their apps on Google and TCL paying directly for patches and configuring updates.


Another random fact is the amount the BlackBerry is demanding from the maker of the Evolve. A very large sum considering an almost complete absence of detectable sales.

Lots of circumstantial evidence that BlackBerry was making money but their OEM customers were not.

In my view, had TCL just paid for the branding and the PKB IP they could have made a go of it, including all touch phones. The achilles heel were the security features and OS. The market only values hardware not the software.

Capturing 100% of the PKB market was just a consolation prize for TCL. They were looking for the brand image of a serious professional phone encompassing all touch and PKB (think Volvo).

They have appeared to have found the brand image that they were needing on the front door of their factory.

BlackBerry made some money off their IP. Good for them. Hopefully, TCL has learned what it takes to succeed in the very competitive mid-tier price range and what they need to do to get carrier support. Not looking good for a new Key phone.

[conite]

No ,I do not know but neither do you.

We do know that the Dtek50 , Aurora, Evolve and the Motion were priced quite a bit higher than comparable phones. So much so, that all sold poorly.

When a company monetizes its IP, usually their ongoing costs are minimal. Yes, BlackBerry would have some ongoing costs but those costs are partially defrayed by the sale of their apps on Google and TCL paying directly for patches and configuring updates.


Another random fact is the amount the BlackBerry is demanding from the maker of the Evolve. A very large sum considering an almost complete absence of detectable sales.

Lots of circumstantial evidence that BlackBerry was making money but their OEM customers were not.

In my view, had TCL just paid for the branding and the PKB IP they could have made a go of it, including all touch phones. The achilles heel were the security features and OS. The market only values hardware not the software.

Capturing 100% of the PKB market was just a consolation prize for TCL. They were looking for the brand image of a serious professional phone encompassing all touch and PKB (think Volvo).

They have appeared to have found the brand image that they were needing on the front door of their factory.

BlackBerry made some money off their IP. Good for them. Hopefully, TCL has learned what it takes to succeed in the very competitive mid-tier price range and what they need to do to get carrier support. Not looking good for a new Key phone.

I never suggested I knew what their costs are - only that BlackBerry decided what they needed to make it work for them and TCL agreed to the terms. To call it "greedy" is ridiculous.

On another note, I don't think TCL ever had any real hopes for a slab, apart from wanting to have one kicking around in case they were asked.

[Bbnivende]

I never suggested I knew what their costs are - only that BlackBerry decided what they needed to make it work for them and TCL agreed to the terms. To call it "greedy" is ridiculous.

On another note, I don't think TCL ever had any real hopes for a slab, apart from wanting to have one kicking around in case they were asked.

It was another poster who suggested that BlackBerry was greedy. It’s a business.

I wonder what came first - telling BlackBerry that folding phones and the high end phones would be not be branded BlackBerry or Chen’s criticism of folding phones ?

[conite]

It was another poster who suggested that BlackBerry was greedy. It’s business.

Which is the post I responded to.

[Apple Aya]

[Chuck Finley69]

That's the point. Where is the experience and/or research indicating that a 9900 sized TOOLBELT pkb handset should be less popular than the crippled giants we've been fed since 2012... ?? How many of the 2014 re-intro'd 99's languished in "fire sales" ? Just because bigger slabs outsell smaller ones, should it automatically follow that bigger PKB should outsell smaller PKB? What's happened to sales with each increase in chassis size since 2011??

You can’t please everyone so if you’re gambling with scared money, the safe bet is on larger screens. I loved my 9900 and held on until my Q10 took over. Couple of years ago, even though I had moved onto DTEK models, I fired up a VKB 9860 Torch Slab for entertainment. The screen was small and hard to use compared with DTEK at time. It’s similar with KEYone and 9900 for me. The Q5 I keep in my truck was bad enough. Could I use? Yes. Do I want to? No. That’s what happens since average person has one device. Us here float between hardware as loyalists or techies. The back of napkin type math suggests PKB is small demand and if making a single form size, larger screen offers better probabilities.

If there’s a market, let Titan have a run at it... there’s got to be old nonBB PKB molds from all the BB knockoffs 10-15 years ago.

[TgeekB]

I can guarantee about a dozen fanboys on this site would buy this because it has a pkb.