11-20-13 11:07 AM
44 12
tools
  1. Seth Flynn's Avatar
    I'm just curious with the app gap gone why can't we put the play store on our devices? I've tried the regular play store and chelpus hacked play store with no luck my thoughts are the missing Google account but couldn't an apk or bar be made to get by this why does amazon app store work flawless for me but not play store? And if there is a way to mod the play store where could I find an apk modifying tool?

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 01:46 AM
  2. mrfreeze's Avatar
    Google services need to be integrated.

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 01:52 AM
  3. JeepBB's Avatar
    And... whilst it doesn't actually "stop anyone", there is the dubious legality of using Android Apps on a platform that the developer (you know, the owner of the rights), chose not to support.

    Sideloading wrapped apk's as bar's was considered piracy by many, making it easier to use Android apk's directly doesn't change that.
    Poirots Progeny and bekkay like this.
    11-16-13 04:37 AM
  4. araskin's Avatar
    I disagree. The APK is running in an Android runtime. It's exactly the platform that the developer was targeting when he/she built the app.

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 08:21 AM
  5. JeepBB's Avatar
    I disagree. The APK is running in an Android runtime. It's exactly the platform that the developer was targeting when he/she built the app.
    You can disagree if you like, it doesn't make you right.

    BB phones are not Android devices, which is why many Apps don't work properly when running under BB10. Many of the "hooks" inside the Apps don't work, for the same reason. And, on the Q10 at least, the screen aspect ratio means that the App displays in a way that was not intended.

    I'm absolutely convinced that BB10 was not the platform the developer was targeting when he/she built the App... or they would have surely built that BB10 device support in when they wrote it.

    Nope. It's piracy. Pure and simple. If it were legit, don't you think BB would be shouting about this and publicising it everywhere? ... "*** STOP PRESS *** BB Devices Gain Access to Extensive Android App Library", etc

    The fact that BB don't condone or promote this use of Android's App stores, or the sideloading that came before, speaks volumes as to the legality of this.

    Just because it's technically feasible for some Apps doesn't make it legally or morally right to use someone else's apk's on your BB device.

    It's clever... but it's wrong!

    M'kay?
    Last edited by JeepBB; 11-16-13 at 10:26 AM.
    11-16-13 09:51 AM
  6. conite's Avatar
    You can disagree if you like, it doesn't make you right.

    BB phones are not Android devices, which is why many Apps don't work properly when running under BB10. Many of the "hooks" inside the Apps don't work, for the same reason. And, on the Q10 at least, the screen aspect ratio means that the App displays in a way that was not intended.

    I'm absolutely convinced that BB10 was not the platform the developer was targeting when he/she built the App... or they would have surely built that BB10 device support in when they wrote it.

    Nope. It's piracy. Pure and simple. If it were legit, don't you think BB would be shouting about this and publicising it everywhere? ... "*** STOP PRESS *** BB Devices Gain Access to Extensive Android App Library", etc

    The fact that BB don't condone or promote this use of Android's App stores, or the sideloading that came before, speaks volumes as to the legality of this.

    Just because it's technically feasible for some Apps doesn't make it legally or morally right to use apk's on a BB device.

    It's clever... but it's wrong!

    M'kay?
    I disagree with this assessment. It would mean that every user and/or developer around the world using Android virtual machines or emulators are pirates as well.

    Google and its developers would be happy with any Android environment. It simply means they have successfully penetrated another space, squeezing others out of the way.


    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 10:21 AM
  7. JeepBB's Avatar
    I disagree with this assessment. It would mean that every user and/or developer around the world using Android virtual machines or emulators are pirates as well.

    Google and its developers would be happy with any Android environment. It simply means they have successfully penetrated another space, squeezing others out of the way.
    I've edited my original post to make clear that a developer can run their own App under any environment they like - virtualised or real - as they own the rights. I kind of thought that was obvious, but...

    What constitutes piracy is someone else taking their App and running it in an environment that the developer has not authorised.

    Developers had the option to "legitimise" their Android Apps by porting them to BBAppWorld using BB's provided tools. Many chose not to do so, and that doesn't give anyone else the legal right to do that "porting" for them.

    As I said, if it were legit, BB would be shouting about this like a drunken sailor. They're not. It's piracy.
    bekkay likes this.
    11-16-13 10:34 AM
  8. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    I don't think developers are really affected. There are many ways of restricting apps to run only on android devices capable of license verification (through Google services). I've tried several apps that I paid for on my android device, and verify the license every time they open... they don't work on my Z10.

    Piracy involves the *unauthorized* use or sale of something. The key being the right to authorize/unathorize.

    Since Google provides many tools to *authorize*, it can be reasonably stated that by choosing not to use those authorization tools, developers are not excersing any authorization rights such that there are no 'authorized' parties and--as direct consequence--no 'unauthorized' parties.

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 10:49 AM
  9. JeepBB's Avatar
    Since Google provides many tools to *authorize*, it can be reasonably stated that by choosing not to use those authorization tools, developers are not excersing any authorization rights such that there are no 'authorized' parties and--as direct consequence--no 'unauthorized' parties.
    Hmmm.... you should be a lawyer. And, maybe you are a lawyer.

    Nope, that argument doesn't work either.

    To simplify: I've put my private papers in a lockable drawer, but I don't use the key kindly provided by the desk manufacturer to lock the drawer.

    You could argue that I'm careless with my security, but by not using the provided key, am I implicitly authorising anyone to take and publish my private papers? I don't think that "right to take and publish" defence would succeed in a court, do you?
    richardat likes this.
    11-16-13 10:58 AM
  10. minimac1's Avatar
    Ugh what are we doing here, making a constitutional amendment?

    If Developers and/or Google felt the use of the runtime was illegal, BlackBerry would have been blasted to oblivion. We all know Google doesn't skimp on litigation. This "is it just? Is it right?" debate simply isint practical.

    It IS an android environment. The fact that aspects of it aren't yet integrated into BB10 devices itself doesn't mean this is piracy... it just simply isint yet integrated.

    The device, and it's physical properties aren't at issue here. It's the intangible intellectual property that constitutes it's legal legitimacy. The android applications itself aren't running off BB10 IP, rather one in which android specifically functions... an Android runtime. Android is, at its core, open source. Google and it's IP should only be seen through its first party apps such as Google Play (which serves solely as a distributor), Google maps, etc...

    This should help clarify: http://liliputing.com/2013/10/lilbit...en-source.html

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 11:20 AM
  11. JeepBB's Avatar
    I'm British, we don't have a written constitution. Making it up as we go seems to have worked out pretty well for us so far.

    For clarity, I am not arguing that the Android runtime in BB devices isn't legitimate. My point is that taking someone else's property, intellectual or physical, without their explicit authorisation is theft.

    The day BB execs share a public platform with Google to announce that BB devices can now access the official app stores through the normal mechanism; is the day I'll accept that this isn't piracy.

    However, if you and your conscience are happy to take apk's from an Android app store to run on your BB device, you are correct that it's unlikely that hoards of lawyers will smash down your door seeking recompense.
    richardat and bekkay like this.
    11-16-13 11:40 AM
  12. skibnik's Avatar
    You can disagree if you like, it doesn't make you right.

    BB phones are not Android devices, which is why many Apps don't work properly when running under BB10. Many of the "hooks" inside the Apps don't work, for the same reason. And, on the Q10 at least, the screen aspect ratio means that the App displays in a way that was not intended.

    I'm absolutely convinced that BB10 was not the platform the developer was targeting when he/she built the App... or they would have surely built that BB10 device support in when they wrote it.

    Nope. It's piracy. Pure and simple. If it were legit, don't you think BB would be shouting about this and publicising it everywhere? ... "*** STOP PRESS *** BB Devices Gain Access to Extensive Android App Library", etc

    The fact that BB don't condone or promote this use of Android's App stores, or the sideloading that came before, speaks volumes as to the legality of this.

    Just because it's technically feasible for some Apps doesn't make it legally or morally right to use someone else's apk's on your BB device.

    It's clever... but it's wrong!

    M'kay?
    How is it piracy? If you purchased an app for download? I still purchase music CDs and convert them to MP3s to play on devices that I own am I pirating music this way?

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 11:50 AM
  13. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    Hmmm.... you should be a lawyer. And, maybe you are a lawyer.

    Nope, that argument doesn't work either.

    To simplify: I've put my private papers in a lockable drawer, but I don't use the key kindly provided by the desk manufacturer to lock the drawer.

    You could argue that I'm careless with my security, but by not using the provided key, am I implicitly authorising anyone to take and publish my private papers? I don't think that "right to take and publish" defence would succeed in a court, do you?
    Your example is completely different, as the drawer is not and has never been clearly understood as a medium of public distribution. Android markets, on the other hand, are (exclusively?) intended for public distribution of material. By placing anything on it, you are distributing it. You can then control it's distribution using the tools given by Google or... if you decide not to, you are authorizing anyone with access to the markets to use your material.

    Posted via CB10
    araskin likes this.
    11-16-13 11:54 AM
  14. CrackberryQ's Avatar
    If i pay for it I own it and can run it on any single device I damn choose! If it's free then same applys! As for developers!!! Android developers are so darn happy about it as they tapped into new clients! I'm sure many will incorporate the q10 aspect ratio just to secure more downloads! And blackberry developers are also happy, as more users may flock to BlackBerry hence higher probability to buy native premium apps!!!

    Q10 driven by 10.2.1.1055
    11-16-13 12:01 PM
  15. conite's Avatar
    As stated before, Android is open source. It is available, free, to any and all who wish to use it.

    Developers, or Google itself, have not contractually bound themselves to any hardware vendor (Samsung, HTC, BlackBerry, etc).

    There is absolutely no expectation or limitation as to what specific devices end up running Android and, by extension, run its apps.

    Just because the actual mechanics of Google Play does not allow, at this moment, for direct downloads to BlackBerry specifically, means nothing. Many legitimate, sanctioned markets like Amazon do allow it.

    Posted via CB10
    mrfreeze and araskin like this.
    11-16-13 12:02 PM
  16. propeller10's Avatar
    App gap gone? Ahahaha. I'm sorry but that genuinely made me laugh. Ported apps don't perform 100% under BB10. Some apps don't work at all. Just because you can load android apps on to BB10 doesn't mean app gap is gone. They have to perform well too. The App gap is STILL there.
    jh07 and bbq10l like this.
    11-16-13 12:08 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    App gap gone? Ahahaha. I'm sorry but that genuinely made me laugh. Ported apps don't perform 100% under BB10. Some apps don't work at all. Just because you can load android apps on to BB10 doesn't mean app gap is gone. They have to perform well too. The App gap is STILL there.
    The BlackBerry Android Runtime actually runs Android apps better than most low-end Android phones. My old Galaxy S2 gets smoked by my Z10.

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 12:13 PM
  18. conite's Avatar
    The BlackBerry Android Runtime actually runs Android apps better than most low-end Android phones. My old Galaxy S2 gets smoked by my Z10.

    Posted via CB10
    Just to follow up.

    For the last bit I've been going head to head with my buddy's S3. The real word, in-app experience is completely comparable. We've tried a whole bunch of apps and games.

    Don't forget, the Android Runtime is not an emulator. It's a true VM running directly over the BB10 kernel.

    All that, and you still get the awesomeness that is BB10!!

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 12:46 PM
  19. araskin's Avatar
    Respectfully I disagree. I download all my APK files from Amazon store. This is a legitimate app store and I pay for the apps I download. As a developer myself, i write apps for an OS and not the device (there are some exceptions to this due to screen size issues).

    If my app is running on Android , then that's all I care about. Now I suppose I could log into the app store and only target the devices that I want to but that's only if that app store let's me do that.

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-13 12:59 PM
  20. dbmalloy's Avatar
    The difference is in the ecosystem.... Apple is totally closed ecosystem.... BB and WP8 n theory is closed as well which means anyting sold in these environement has an expectation of being used in said ecosystem... If someone made a gray market BB or Apple phone and WP8 downloaded their software... it is piracy as it the TOS says that the software is meant for specific divices as stated in TOS.... Android is a totally different animal.... Being open source and many variations of phones and forked OS... the varying app stores..... it is implied that is a dev uploads an app to the store almost anyone can download it... the exception being between gingerbread and ice cream sandwhich which has compatability issues.... Piracy comes in two forms in the land of Android.... when a paid developers app is either uploaded to a play store wthout permisiion or if it is a paid app and the downloader does not pay for it... the latter being an issue with both Apple WP8 and BB.,.... Apple through Jailbreak and BB side loading... where BB is concerned... it is piracay if you download either a BB or Android App that is a "paid App" and do not pay for it.... as mentioned... if piracy was as rampant as many claim.... BB would spend more time in court and less trying to right the ship.....
    11-16-13 01:18 PM
  21. howarmat's Avatar
    As stated before, Android is open source. It is available, free, to any and all who wish to use it.

    Developers, or Google itself, have not contractually bound themselves to any hardware vendor (Samsung, HTC, BlackBerry, etc).

    There is absolutely no expectation or limitation as to what specific devices end up running Android and, by extension, run its apps.

    Just because the actual mechanics of Google Play does not allow, at this moment, for direct downloads to BlackBerry specifically, means nothing. Many legitimate, sanctioned markets like Amazon do allow it.

    Posted via CB10
    Not really true. Android itself is open source but the use of google services IS NOT. Thats why there are many android based handsets do not have access to the Play store. Amazon runs an android fork and thus no access to play store and other google services officially.

    This is where BB is and they would have to negotiate with google to get access i think since they are not part of the OHA.

    You can read more here in this article

    The Google Android fork: Google Play services, Android 4.4, and the Nexus Experience
    m1kr0, JeepBB and Terser Nori like this.
    11-16-13 01:34 PM
  22. Terser Nori's Avatar
    Just to add here is a link to google's compatibility faq for Google Play compatibility.

    http://source.android.com/compatibility/overview.html

    It will give you a good idea of what is needed to have Google play enabled on a device.

    Posted via CB10
    Tre Lawrence likes this.
    11-16-13 01:45 PM
  23. m1kr0's Avatar
    Whoever disagrees with BB opening up the runtime and making it possible to download Android apps from legitimate app stores like Amazon (Google is not the only legit Android app store), please take this up with BlackBerry's legal department and/or Alex Saunders. I'm not trying to steal anything. I don't steal. I buy a legit app from a legit app store if I need it. If the app is for free, I install it and I use it. I do also own a legitimate Nexus running legit Android 4.3 connecting legitimately to Google Play Store where I also buy apps legally. Please stop misleading people.
    11-16-13 01:52 PM
  24. mrfreeze's Avatar
    I disagree with JeepBB. Some of this has already been stated, but I will hash it out again.

    Installing Android apps on devices that are not supported is not piracy. The developer probably *wishes* you wouldn't because they do not want to get questions about support on unsupported devices, but it is not piracy. You are not reverse engineering any code, altering the app in any way or redistributing it. The Android runtime that runs the app is open source and can be developed on other platforms legally and free. I understand that Google Services is not open source, but that is not what we are talking about here.

    This would be similar to installing an app that is only supported on Windows 7 and then moving it to a Windows 8 machine. The developer wishes you wouldn't do that, but if you paid for it and aren't redistributing it then the worst they can say is they don't support it. The developer always has the right to do a device or system check built-in to their app.

    People need to stop obsessing with the fact you got it from a mobile app store and remember that these are basically mini computers.
    skibnik likes this.
    11-16-13 01:55 PM
  25. TarstarDrudo's Avatar
    Hey there's nothing illegal here, long as Google is cool with the whole thing and the developers are cool with it we can download them apps, u haters stop the hate and get urself a z10, best OS right now.

    Posted via CB10
    m1kr0 likes this.
    11-17-13 12:53 PM
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