09-20-13 10:02 AM
33 12
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  1. marksthespot60's Avatar
    I wonder..

    What do you think it will look like? I watched the dev podcast right before the 10.2 gold sdk and I don't recall any talk on the UI side of it. There has to have been a strategy from the beginning. What do you think it is?
    09-19-13 03:11 PM
  2. merv69's Avatar
    http://crackberry.com/rise-and-fall-headless-apps

    That's the plan right there...

    Via my Zormtrooper...
    09-19-13 03:13 PM
  3. epyon52328's Avatar
    BlackBerry really doesn't want headless app at all. The only reason that they are even allowing the option of headless apps is because there was so much pressure to do so. But they aren't going to make it easy to do.

    Sent from my Q10
    09-19-13 03:20 PM
  4. Dodger52's Avatar
    BlackBerry really doesn't want headless app at all. The only reason that they are even allowing the option of headless apps is because there was so much pressure to do so. But they aren't going to make it easy to do.

    Sent from my Q10
    So do you have a beter alternative then the One that BlackBerry is offering? One that doesn't compromis battery life?

    And don't start about the crappy alternative Shaosoft suggested that Just isn't user friendly.

    Posted via CB10
    09-19-13 03:41 PM
  5. marksthespot60's Avatar
    I read the article and comments, and I'm not going to comment on BlackBerry's intentions. The reality is that consumers want the functionality of headless applications, and if BlackBerry 10 is going to the #1 mobile computing solution, the devs need the ability to build these.

    The question for this thread is how are we going to interact with headless apps on the BB10 UI? It surely has to be developed already.. The idea should have been there from the start of building the BlackBerry 10 UX over 2 years ago... Anyone have a clue?
    09-19-13 04:07 PM
  6. bennelong's Avatar
    System Settings > Security and Privacy > Application Permissions > Show Application?

    Z10 via CB10
    09-19-13 04:17 PM
  7. Dodger52's Avatar
    I read the article and comments, and I'm not going to comment on BlackBerry's intentions. The reality is that consumers want the functionality of headless applications, and if BlackBerry 10 is going to the #1 mobile computing solution, the devs need the ability to build these.

    The question for this thread is how are we going to interact with headless apps on the BB10 UI? It surely has to be developed already.. The idea should have been there from the start of building the BlackBerry 10 UX over 2 years ago... Anyone have a clue?
    Fact is headless apps can already be built.

    Posted via CB10
    marksthespot60 likes this.
    09-19-13 04:22 PM
  8. Stephen Cooper's Avatar
    To be honest, it's my battery life......let me the consumer make that call. BlackBerry is declining because in my opinion, they won't give the people with the money to make them prosperous (consumers) what they want. Just my opinion.

    Posted via the Super BlackBerry Z10
    09-19-13 05:41 PM
  9. kevinnugent's Avatar
    So, there's no headless apps with 10.2 now?? God, can this company f*ck things up any more??
    09-19-13 08:46 PM
  10. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    So, there's no headless apps with 10.2 now?? God, can this company f*ck things up any more??
    Well, the best thing is that I have even one more reason to not like the Z30 now.
    Sad.
    So much for "mobile computing"...

    Posted via CB10
    09-19-13 09:09 PM
  11. Toodeurep's Avatar
    Actually, there have been well known devs call Shao's methods "sh!tty" and say that writing the app "twice" is fundamentally a better practice.

    As with so many things today their seems to be two camps/sides to every debate, each with good reasons as to why their method is better.
    Last edited by Toodeurep; 09-19-13 at 09:36 PM. Reason: Misquoted
    09-19-13 09:28 PM
  12. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Actually, there have been well known devs call Shao's methods "sh!tty" and say that writing the app "twice" is fundamentally a better practice.

    As with so many things today their seems to be two camps/sides to every debate, each with good reasons as to why their method is better.
    If he is doing it right or wrong isn't the theme though, as far as I am concerned.
    The theme is that BlackBerry did it wrong.
    Again.

    Posted via CB10
    09-19-13 09:54 PM
  13. dannyd86's Avatar
    If he is doing it right or wrong isn't the theme though, as far as I am concerned.
    The theme is that BlackBerry did it wrong.
    Again.

    Posted via CB10
    The theme is that we still don't have headless apps. Something I've wanted since Feb 5th. So somebody is ******* up!

    Posted via CB10
    Thesmartmale and kevinnugent like this.
    09-19-13 10:00 PM
  14. notfanboy's Avatar
    So I thought this was supposed to be the newest most future proofed OS out there? Can't even get multitasking features that are available in BBOS?
    JWWDUKE and kevinnugent like this.
    09-19-13 10:17 PM
  15. KermEd's Avatar
    http://crackberry.com/rise-and-fall-headless-apps

    That's the plan right there...

    Via my Zormtrooper...
    He doesn't really know what he's talking about.

    Headless apps are very easy to work with. He gets confused because he isn't... how do I put this politely, someone well versed in coding practices

    In reality they work very well and very robust as an extension of push. There a hundreds of ways to start incorporating headless as it is today. The SMS handler itself makes it a great resource.

    Most of what he complained about is stuff that is good to have there. It protects you from malware and fly by night coders who don't understand push and headless from burning up your device.

    It has a ways to go but it's on an infancy release - where it hasn't even been released yet - and it's exactly where we need it right now, exposed just enough to see if it will be abused. In headless apps im able to react to an SMS message and have the phone respond with GPS coordinates.

    Or using SMS we can now build an email - to - SMS app on the phone. Or check actual device restarts and log it for reference. Or even use third party push messages to send notifications to users when an update is available by dropping a notification in the hub.

    There is so much we can do,and it works very well. He just doesn't know what he's doing and people flock to him because he has a dozen timer and flashlight apps..

    As for what you can do - right now my phone can be triggered to do amazing things over SMS messages for the last few days. It's limited only by the minds building for it. And it's only going to get better. Geolocation (turn on blue tooth devices automatically at a location),etc etc

    Edit: FYI, just to be super clear for folks. You do not need to write to separate apps for headless. It has different entry points, kind like doors to a house. You don't want to use the same door for both because one has no UI and needs to assume settings. This is a good thing.

    Posted via CB from my LE
    Last edited by KermEd; 09-19-13 at 10:37 PM.
    09-19-13 10:22 PM
  16. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    He doesn't really know what he's talking about.

    Headless apps are very easy to work with. He gets confused because he isn't... how do I put this politely, someone well versed in coding practices

    In reality they work very well and very robust as an extension of push. There a hundreds of ways to start incorporating headless as it is today. The SMS handler itself makes it a great resource.

    Most of what he complained about is stuff that is good to have there. It protects you from malware and fly by night coders who don't understand push and headless from burning up your device.

    It has a ways to go but it's on an infancy release - where it hasn't even been released yet - and it's exactly where we need it right now, exposed just enough to see if it will be abused. In headless apps im able to react to an SMS message and have the phone respond with GPS coordinates.

    Or using SMS we can now build an email - to - SMS app on the phone. Or check actual device restarts and log it for reference. Or even use third party push messages to send notifications to users when an update is available by dropping a notification in the hub.

    There is so much we can do,and it works very well. He just doesn't know what he's doing and people flock to him because he has a dozen timer and flashlight apps..

    As for what you can do - right now my phone can be triggered to do amazing things over SMS messages for the last few days. It's limited only by the minds building for it. And it's only going to get better. Geolocation (turn on blue tooth devices automatically at a location),etc etc

    Posted via CB from my LE
    From my understanding, headless apps work pretty good on the other operating systems now, so what exactly is the reason that BlackBerry couldn't do it in a way that would be similar? (IE: it just works?)

    I mean, you need to let it approve by BlackBerry that your apps run headless...
    Who had that headless idea?!

    What he is saying also tells me, that BlackBerry has a serious issue with the GUI right now.
    Since the app launcher with the active frames is your home screen, they don't have an app launcher for the apps running in the background.
    This is a major oversight.

    Posted via CB10
    kevinnugent likes this.
    09-19-13 10:36 PM
  17. KermEd's Avatar
    From my understanding, headless apps work pretty good on the other operating systems now, so what exactly is the reason that BlackBerry couldn't do it in a way that would be similar? (IE: it just works?)

    I mean, you need to let it approve by BlackBerry that your apps run headless...
    Who had that headless idea?!

    What he is saying also tells me, that BlackBerry has a serious issues with the GUI right now.
    Since the app launcher is your home screen, they don't have an app launcher for the apps running in the background.
    This is a major oversight.

    Posted via CB10
    Not quite...

    Developers need to let you know they are handling SMS events etc. U want this it prevents maleware and they don't need RIM permission, they need yours. Because any app can add headless events, you want this, it prevents 40 apps from reading your SMS messages and using your battery. But these are events only. It really isn't background apps - so only when your phone does something will it launch your app to process it. This means no wasting battery in a dead period for the app.

    If you want your app to run 24/7 in the background - only to then u need blackberry permission. Because it will affect battery life on your phone, they are being super super selective of this right now because it was a huge Os5/6/7 problem. And Shao, God love him, has mostly poor level apps without a good history of apps on other platforms. They don't want him having unrestricted background access as a pilot - they are looking for folks with bigger support channels like AVG first (people who can support the user base).

    Remember this is barely a beta phase for the first rollout.

    The GUI I think he's confused how they work. No apps right now are approved to run 24/7. Only when something happens, then the phone run your app silently just long enough to process the events. These can be disabled in app permissions in the next release.

    Posted via CB from my LE
    BCITMike and abass like this.
    09-19-13 10:45 PM
  18. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Not quite...

    Developers need to let you know they are handling SMS events etc. U want this it prevents maleware and they don't need RIM permission, they need yours. Because any app can add headless events, you want this, it prevents 40 apps from reading your SMS messages and using your battery. But these are events only. It really isn't background apps - so only when your phone does something will it launch your app to process it. This means no wasting battery in a dead period for the app.

    If you want your app to run 24/7 in the background - only to then u need blackberry permission. Because it will affect battery life on your phone, they are being super super selective of this right now because it was a huge Os5/6/7 problem. And Shao, God love him, has mostly poor level apps without a good history of apps on other platforms. They don't want him having unrestricted background access as a pilot - they are looking for folks with bigger support channels like AVG first (people who can support the user base).

    Remember this is barely a beta phase for the first rollout.

    The GUI I think he's confused how they work. No apps right now are approved to run 24/7. Only when something happens, then the phone run your app silently just long enough to process the events. These can be disabled in app permissions in the next release.

    Posted via CB from my LE
    I don't really care about Shao, I've never bought an app from him, and some of them are rather... Well let's say of dubious utility.

    My real question was:
    Why does it work without all of these theoretical problems on the other major platforms?

    And why the hell is BlackBerry releasing the feature if it isn't ready?
    The feeling I get, is that headless apps were an afterthought.

    I thank you for giving a detailed answer and why you think that Shao got it wrong (he very well could be, I'm no dev) but seeing other platforms I rather think, after what you have been saying, that BlackBerry and Shao both got it wrong.

    Posted via CB10
    kevinnugent and Saiga like this.
    09-19-13 10:59 PM
  19. SWAT-ron2k11's Avatar
    This really should be a Dev to Dev discussions. Everyone who doesn't really understand developing is rushing into here making statements and comments when they don't really understand whats going on.

    Headless Apps are in 10.2
    The issue is the development and restrictions imposed on App developers to create headless apps. That's really it, things can be adjusted to make things easier but creates more risks.

    Maybe BlackBerry needs to Re-Look and see how to better implement background apps in BB10.

    The lack of documentation is weird, I thought the Dev Team had that taken care of. I'm sure they could tackle that.

    Anyways please make sure you fully understand the issue before commenting on it.
    MobileMadness002 likes this.
    09-19-13 11:01 PM
  20. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    This really should be a Dev to Dev discussions. Everyone who doesn't really understand developing is rushing into here making statements and comments when they don't really understand whats going on.

    Headless Apps are in 10.2
    The issue is the development and restrictions imposed on App developers to create headless apps. That's really it, things can be adjusted to make things easier but creates more risks.

    Maybe BlackBerry needs to Re-Look and see how to better implement background apps in BB10.

    The lack of documentation is weird, I thought the Dev Team had that taken care of. I'm sure they could tackle that.

    Anyways please make sure you fully understand the issue before commenting on it.
    I fully agree with you, to really talk about the theme, I and others would need to seriously learn how to code (I wanted to do that for quite some time now) and understand the implications of BlackBerry's solution.

    From a theoretical POV, I do wonder why it's apparently easier to do it on other platforms and why it's touted as a beta feature by Kermed.

    Posted via CB10
    09-19-13 11:08 PM
  21. KermEd's Avatar
    Take me with a grain of salt too

    Betas a harsh word - I use pilot and it's only a pilot group for 24/7 background apps. We know background apps are dangerous. There is a spy ware risk and they eat batteries, cause errors and freezes when done wrong. Plus remember no one is really supposed to be using 10.2 for the most part so headless apps should not exist yet.

    Bbry is doing two things.

    24/7 background apps need blackberry to review the app. They want the first apps to be the best apps. Which is fair. Because this is where it is harder for them to control battery loss

    The other apps are ones that only need user approval. These are headless but they don't run always. How it works

    1 - phone gets sms
    2 - phone launches your headless led changer
    3 - led changes
    4 - instead of staying running, app is auto closed

    Now if the app uses too many resources, the phone will kill it to protect your battery. That's why the 3MB, 20 second or whatever, limit.

    So you can't have a battery draining background app . The phone is smart enough to stop them. Plus u don't need to use a task manager. When the app finishes processing the event it is closed automatically

    Also, just saying, I had no issues with the documentation and was able to implement it into an app in about 20 minutes.

    Posted via CB from my LE
    BCITMike and Toodeurep like this.
    09-19-13 11:30 PM
  22. sergey_IL's Avatar
    So, there's no headless apps with 10.2 now?? God, can this company f*ck things up any more??
    This is simply not true!
    The article posted on CB is misleading!
    This is sounds not good, but this is real BlackBerry bashing by CB.

    I thin we will see headless apps as soon as 10.2 will be officially available.
    09-19-13 11:51 PM
  23. sergey_IL's Avatar
    This really should be a Dev to Dev discussions. Everyone who doesn't really understand developing is rushing into here making statements and comments when they don't really understand whats going on.

    Headless Apps are in 10.2
    The issue is the development and restrictions imposed on App developers to create headless apps. That's really it, things can be adjusted to make things easier but creates more risks.

    Maybe BlackBerry needs to Re-Look and see how to better implement background apps in BB10.

    The lack of documentation is weird, I thought the Dev Team had that taken care of. I'm sure they could tackle that.

    Anyways please make sure you fully understand the issue before commenting on it.
    There is no lack of documentation. You even have couple of examples? You need better than that?
    09-19-13 11:56 PM
  24. KermEd's Avatar
    There is no lack of documentation. You even have couple of examples? You need better than that?
    Yeah I found the documentation more than sufficient. There is even an article that covers the xml configuration in a nice step by step manner.

    Posted via CB from my LE
    09-20-13 12:01 AM
  25. abass's Avatar
    I fully agree with you, to really talk about the theme, I and others would need to seriously learn how to code (I wanted to do that for quite some time now) and understand the implications of BlackBerry's solution.

    From a theoretical POV, I do wonder why it's apparently easier to do it on other platforms and why it's touted as a beta feature by Kermed.

    Posted via CB10
    Because as Kermed brought up along with his other points, how old are the other platforms? BlackBerry 10 is still an infant really, how quickly do you expect BlackBerry devs to move? They are already working their @sses off and that should be apparent to say the least :/

    Comparing BlackBerry to say Apple or Android right now is comparing apples to oranges (not to be ironic).. One of the OS's is like 10 years old and has had ages to iron out all of the little nuances, while the other is a brand new platform that is improving by the day. Cut them some slack, everyone knew what they were getting themselves into being an early adopter of a new OS, you can't expect the kind of refinement that the competition currently has, it's as simple as that.

    BlackBerry learned from Legacy what a mess background running apps really can be, so they are taking a more secure route this time around and I applaud them for that. They are learning from their mistakes and making the platform really built strong for the future, can ya blame them?

    - Developer of 'Web Design Cheat Sheet' for BB10 (Posted via CB10)
    09-20-13 12:06 AM
33 12

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