1. squished18's Avatar
    In the last few years, the BlackBerry brand has been withering and for good reason. Here are some of the factors that played into this trend:

    * poor device stability - A significant percentage of users experienced crashes and had to regularly reset their devices. This becomes extremely frustrating on a phone that you depend on.
    * poor device responsiveness - Any BlackBerry owner has become familiar with the stopwatch hourglass lag. For casual users it was mildly annoying. For power users it made the device almost useless.
    * terrible web browser - It wasn't until the Torch 9800 that the web browser was reasonable and not really until BB 7 did the browser become quite usable. When everything runs on the Web and your "smartphone" doesn't, it's a problem.
    * laggy camera performance - On an iPhone you can pull up the camera and take your first shot in a reasonable time. Not until BB 7 is the BB camera not frustrating to use. It's still not an exceptional experience.
    * terrible development environment - Beaureaucratic paperwork to get license keys. Key servers that crashed regularly. Poorly documented APIs. Massive cycle times in compiling, simulating, loading, and testing. Trying to support a fragmented hardware base with different screen sizes and different hardware features.
    * middling battery life - One of the great features of BlackBerry is no longer true. Users complain about BB battery life as much as other platforms.

    That all being said, there are some bright spots in the platform.
    * QNX should address stability and lag issues. The Playbook shows that with QNX that problem has been solved.
    * The web browser on BB 7 and QNX is fine. No complaints there.
    * Camera lag still seems to be an issue with QNX. Maybe RIM needs better engineers in this department.
    * Alec Saunders appears to be making the right moves on the development side. Development cycle time is still an issue. A revolution is needed here on the simulation side to drastically reduce debug times.
    * Someone needs to wake up on the battery side. PlayBook is OK. BB users don't care that much about thin. Give us a fat chunky battery that lasts for two days and we'll be much happier than having an anorexic device that we have to worry about feeding.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-15-11 09:57 AM
  2. crackd11's Avatar
    Well put. And double goes for a fat battery!
    12-15-11 10:24 AM
  3. youknwwho's Avatar
    If you want to tale a picture with you BB, then leave the left side convenient key to Camera.
    Yeah, I don't mind my phone being 19mm thick, as long as it last for two day. For pete sake, you're famous for making a BOLD, so make you phone BOLD
    12-15-11 10:53 AM
  4. BBThemes's Avatar
    Trying to support a fragmented hardware base with different screen sizes and different hardware features.
    wait a minute, why did we go from talking about BB to android

    BB users don't care that much about thin. Give us a fat chunky battery that lasts for two days and we'll be much happier than having an anorexic device that we have to worry about feeding.
    gotta disagree, if everyone else is making thin sleek phones with large batteries, shouldnt we be asking for that, i mean it needs to be comparable in thickness to its competitiors as thats what the consumer does actually want - a phone comparable to other makers phones.
    12-15-11 10:53 AM
  5. robsteve's Avatar
    In the last few years, the BlackBerry brand has been withering and for good reason.
    Do you realize it is still the number one smart phone is Canada?

    In regards to the USA, Blackberry really only has three or four customers and if you don't keep them happy or do a good selling job to them, you are going to have a tough time selling phones. Those customers are the carriers, AT&T, Verizon, Sprint and etc. In the end, it is the carriers that sell the phones for you.
    12-15-11 11:04 AM
  6. squished18's Avatar
    Do you realize it is still the number one smart phone is Canada?

    In regards to the USA, Blackberry really only has three or four customers and if you don't keep them happy or do a good selling job to them, you are going to have a tough time selling phones. Those customers are the carriers, AT&T, Verizon, Sprint and etc. In the end, it is the carriers that sell the phones for you.
    Hi robsteve,

    I'm not saying BlackBerry is doomed. I'm commenting on why the number of BlackBerry devices sold went from an exponential growth down to no growth at all (and negative growth in the US).

    There are certainly some strengths to the platform, but there were some key reasons that some previously loyal and happy customers went to other platforms.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-15-11 11:29 AM
  7. squished18's Avatar
    wait a minute, why did we go from talking about BB to android



    gotta disagree, if everyone else is making thin sleek phones with large batteries, shouldnt we be asking for that, i mean it needs to be comparable in thickness to its competitiors as thats what the consumer does actually want - a phone comparable to other makers phones.
    Just to clarify, I'm not saying all BBs need fat batteries. But today it's hard to find ANY BB with great battery life. The 9790 seems to address this partially, so maybe I'm wrong there.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-15-11 11:32 AM
  8. kbz1960's Avatar
    Do you realize it is still the number one smart phone is Canada?

    In regards to the USA, Blackberry really only has three or four customers and if you don't keep them happy or do a good selling job to them, you are going to have a tough time selling phones. Those customers are the carriers, AT&T, Verizon, Sprint and etc. In the end, it is the carriers that sell the phones for you.
    You mean att, verizon, sprint, uscellular, tmobile, cellular south and the many other small carriers? OK BTW the big 3 or 4 pretty much cover the whole country.
    12-15-11 11:32 AM
  9. brucep1's Avatar
    Some food for thought...

    1.) Blackberry is losing its reputation for Security based on its brand new OS being jailbroken twice.

    2.) Blackberry is losing its stranglehold on the corporate market in the US, as more and more companies are opening their ecosystem to Apple and Android.


    These two facts are something that I never thought would happen.
    12-15-11 12:33 PM
  10. robsteve's Avatar
    Hi robsteve,

    I'm not saying BlackBerry is doomed. I'm commenting on why the number of BlackBerry devices sold went from an exponential growth down to no growth at all (and negative growth in the US).
    I think they are still growing pretty well in Canada and the rest of the world other than the USA. We will know better once the earnings are out tonight, but even earlier this year the total subscribers compared to last year was up over 45%. That is still pretty good growth.

    edit:

    Just did a little research. Rim's December 16, 2010 news release states over 55 million subscribers. The subscriber base as of today's news release was 75 million, a 45% increase.
    Last edited by robsteve; 12-15-11 at 03:26 PM.
    12-15-11 01:45 PM
  11. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Some food for thought...

    1.) Blackberry is losing its reputation for Security based on its brand new OS being jailbroken twice.

    2.) Blackberry is losing its stranglehold on the corporate market in the US, as more and more companies are opening their ecosystem to Apple and Android.


    These two facts are something that I never thought would happen.

    The "jailbreaking" of the PlayBook certainly isn't tarnishing the BlackBerry Security base, YET, IF it is still open when they launch their phones, then it will, right now the limited access that you can get with the "jailbreak" doesn't grant users enough permissions to be too dangerous on a tablet, it has yet to be shown what the jailbreak can do on a tablet that is bridged to a BES network, as RIM's security has been BES focused for Enterprise

    that isn't to say they are not watching! but anyone worth their salt hasn't written off RIM and security yet.


    RIM isn't losing, they have LOST their strangle hold, they are trying to get a grip again with Fusion, and really that was the smartest thing they could do, if they only launched it last January, to be ready for the PlayBook!! that would have helped playbook sales.




    As for the OP, I agree with the title, I don't agree with the majority of your points.

    RIM's decline from dominance has been

    > Failure to realize the importance of a touchscreen device (2007)
    > Failure to release devices with significant improvements to encourage user upgrades (8800-9780 had approx 300mhz increase over 3.5 years (Feb 07-Oct10)
    > Lack of advertising of products, and the features (PlayBook ad campaign focuses on least important aspects, Curve campaign NEVER carried the legacy of the 83XX, the sales of that device should have been part of a campaign for successors,)
    > Lack of addressing the growing need of an ecosystem back in 2009, ( 2009 was the year of the App, and it didn't stop becoming more important, 2012 will be the year of the cloud, is RIM ready?)

    I will agree on the development front, in every instance until 2011 devcon they did nothing to actually help developers, they didn't make tools easy, they didn't release them at the right times, and they didn't provide proper documentation,

    The OS7 conversation to the decline of BlackBerry is greatly over shadowed in the media by the PlayBook, as OS7 has addressed much of RIM's short comings, and they are working to improving things, it was a good first step, if the next step is of equal footing I feel good for RIM, if they take a half step they better be quick with the next 2.
    12-15-11 03:06 PM
  12. 13echo4's Avatar
    Everything you described is true for iphones and androids. It took until ios4 so iphones could send and receive mms. I'm not going to list everything because there's no need in beating a dead horse.
    Android did have a lot features at start up. But that's only because Motorola's devices had been sending mms since like 04 or even earlier. Along w/ other features. They where not going to get on ship with anything less than what they already had.
    As long as your comparing a blackberry to an apple its going to taste funny.
    I have people come up to me all the time and say their ???? Can do so much more than my blackberry. I ask em if they have ever owned a blackberry or used one and 9 out of 10 times they say no. The ones that say yes either had curves mostly the 83?? Family or wanted something they couldn't figure out how to do with their blackberry.
    Its sad that as customers Americans has fell slave to public opinion. That what 85% of all this is about. Cut and dried. (Oh sue has the new iphone xx she the most popular girl. I got to get me one of those. Ricky has the new Droid he's so cool. I gotta have one too.)

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-15-11 03:52 PM
  13. squished18's Avatar
    As for the OP, I agree with the title, I don't agree with the majority of your points.

    RIM's decline from dominance has been

    > Failure to realize the importance of a touchscreen device (2007)
    > Failure to release devices with significant improvements to encourage user upgrades (8800-9780 had approx 300mhz increase over 3.5 years (Feb 07-Oct10)
    > Lack of advertising of products, and the features (PlayBook ad campaign focuses on least important aspects, Curve campaign NEVER carried the legacy of the 83XX, the sales of that device should have been part of a campaign for successors,)
    > Lack of addressing the growing need of an ecosystem back in 2009, ( 2009 was the year of the App, and it didn't stop becoming more important, 2012 will be the year of the cloud, is RIM ready?)

    I will agree on the development front, in every instance until 2011 devcon they did nothing to actually help developers, they didn't make tools easy, they didn't release them at the right times, and they didn't provide proper documentation,
    Yup, I pretty much disagree with you on all counts.

    I don't think they failed to realize the importance of the touchscreen, they just didn't produce a device with a touchscreen that actually worked well. Storm 1 and Storm 2 disappointed most customers who purchased one.

    Re: processor speed - It wasn't the lack of processor speed that seemed to cause problems. I see it as more of the lack of GPU. Maybe that's just semantics.

    Advertising can't save you if your product disappoints (i.e. resets and laggy).

    Your ecosystem can only develop if your device can support it. A device that resets and is laggy can't support the apps you want so much. Solve that issue and the apps follow (as initial QNX development has shown already).
    Caymancroc and tack like this.
    12-15-11 04:26 PM
  14. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Yup, I pretty much disagree with you on all counts.

    I don't think they failed to realize the importance of the touchscreen, they just didn't produce a device with a touchscreen that actually worked well. Storm 1 and Storm 2 disappointed most customers who purchased one.

    Re: processor speed - It wasn't the lack of processor speed that seemed to cause problems. I see it as more of the lack of GPU. Maybe that's just semantics.

    Advertising can't save you if your product disappoints (i.e. resets and laggy).

    Your ecosystem can only develop if your device can support it. A device that resets and is laggy can't support the apps you want so much. Solve that issue and the apps follow (as initial QNX development has shown already).
    My reasoning for saying the failed to realize the importance of touchscreens is heavily because of the Storm 2! They upgrade from the Storm 1 to the Storm 2, was far to marginal, They DIDN'T commit to the touchscreen, the OS was not updated to be touch friendly, the hardware improvements were not significant enough compared to the other touchscreens on the market, then after the Storm 2 October 2009, there was no Full touchscreen offering until Q3 2011, during the biggest decline in their mind share

    The Processor was just a single example as I didn't want to get wordy like I usually do, I agree whole heartedly that a GPU should have been included on all 2010 launched devices, the 9800 should have had a GPU and an 800Mhz processor since the processor family that was used in the 9800 was rated for 800Mhz, that would have made the 9800 a OS7 upgradeable device, and eliminated the 9810, saving the 9810 to be a OS7 Launch in January with a dual core upgradable to BB10,
    Poor Planning on their hardware upgrade path completely, but that failure started in 2009, by not significantly upgrading the phones each year, as processor speeds double every 18 months, a 50% increase each year should be a minimum increase in performance,
    I'd tie part of their failure in NOT leaving Marvell as a processor manufacturer in 2009 and going Qualcomm 100%, Marvell kept RIM back

    Advertising slows negative opinion of a product that isn't warranted, the Storm Line was a poorly built product line, but the Fleet products like the 83XX 89XX, 88XX, 9000, all were fantastic products, as were the pearls, yet lack of advertising left the bad taste of the Storm, and then the Tour's launch flaws in CDMA users mouths, which make up 50% of the US market at least. Each point must be taken as a combination, as IF they increased performance of the hardware behind their software lagging wouldn't have been as bad, and memory overflows wouldn't have happened, then the advertising would have more meaning pointing to the strengths


    The Ecosystem is more than just the devices, RIM failed to address consumption needs of users, Apple had iTunes for Consumption, this gave them an edge for the casual user, RIM should have addressed consumption media delivery in 2009 with a 2010 launch, with their carrier relationships and carrier billing they could have offered the carriers something that Apple wasn't offering, AND could have offered something to compete with googles ad revenue sharing, a portion of proceeds of Media sales.
    Again I agree the devices needed to be stable, to be fair, my 8330 was ROCK SOLID, my 9300 pretty good even after having more water damage then a phone should have still lasts a full day of use maybe 1 or 2 random reboots a week due to losing battery contact. my 9800 was amazing, I would argue it actually hung up less than my 9900 did before OS7.1 and my 9670 has never froze. BUT IF RIM did the upgrade path, their devices would have supported an ecosystem, AND looking at an Ecosystem they SHOULD have addressed their poor developer support at DevCon 2010, or sooner, NOT waiting till DevCon 2011 to release tools,
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    12-15-11 06:00 PM
  15. grahamf's Avatar
    What REALLY happened to RIM:

    RIM was a business oriented company.

    RIM could take their sweet time to make sure a device operated flawlessly. And they had to, because their primary customers were business people that did not update their devices very often (If ever). Their device quality was as close to perfect as possible, and they were used by many.

    They were even starting to move to the consumer side but continuing to rely on their roots. That's why the original Curve was one of the best selling phone of it's time. (just after the RAZR).

    Then the iPhone came out. Originally RIM did not see it as a threat. But once they did, they realized that all of their future planning had to be redone as fast as possible. They started to rush; releasing their first touchscreen long before it was ready. They packed in features while sacrificing performance and quality. And that burned off many people who loved their Blackberrys for years.

    It does seem that RIM is finally restabilizing a bit, but the damage has been done. RIM has to go back to their roots while changing in order to survive. It does seem like they are doing this already, but only the future will tell if they are successful or not.
    12-15-11 06:59 PM
  16. 13echo4's Avatar
    Iphones didn't have 1ghz processors until the ip4 which was released in 2010. 2009 saw the release of the 3gs. The "S" which meant speed w/ a 600mhz processor. My 9700 has a slightly faster processor but we'll call it even. The ip 3gs didn't work or move thru things faster than my 9700 released the same year.
    2010 is when every jumped out with 1ghz processors. To my understanding rim had intended to have devices w/ snapdragon cpus but they couldn't get em in time. Well some devices got em in 2011. Really Rim isn't behind in hardware. I like my Torch's ui a whole lot better than the ip4s.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-15-11 07:27 PM
  17. Caymancroc's Avatar
    Advertising can't save you if your product disappoints (i.e. resets and laggy).
    I keep hearing RIM has an advertising problem. They do but I agree with squished18. You can advertise until you exhaust every penny of the billions RIM has (or is it had?) saved. If your product is inferior people won't buy it. Like it or not, RIM has an inferior product in the marketplace.

    Ask Microsoft about advertising spent. They are advertising their Windows Phones like crazy but iPhone continues to crush it.
    12-15-11 07:41 PM
  18. zukeeper's Avatar
    My decade plus loyalty to Blackberry has ended tonight. Tomorrow I will return the 9900 I bought two weeks ago because the cursor flies all over the place with a mind of its own. I did some checking on the Internet and, lo and behold, it's a common problem with 9900s made in Mexico.

    After I return my 9900 I am going to get an iPhone.

    This is why/how Blackberry is almost out of the market, and will be out of business within 5-years.

    no you got that wrong . RIM is on the upswing ...and you will be back in less than 5 years saying how much you missed BB
    12-15-11 08:05 PM
  19. DarnellO's Avatar
    no you got that wrong . RIM is on the upswing ...and you will be back in less than 5 years saying how much you missed BB
    I was a 10+ years customer of BB. I tried to be loyal even when the writing was on the wall when I upgraded to this 9900.
    12-15-11 08:13 PM
  20. momofteme's Avatar
    "Did you know there is an iphone app, that lets you send voice notes to other people with the app?" says my bud bragging about his iphone. "ever heard of BBM?" I ask.

    He had a curve for years and is still in my bbm contact list.

    DOH! Facts don't have much to do with most arguments.

    I will whole heartedly agree that BB's are inferior for:
    gaming
    surfing (with native browser, opera makes it less sucky)
    pictures and video?? (never shot a video in 3years and only a dozen pics I care about)
    that cool app with the talking mustache mouth.

    Blackberry is not inferior hardware when comparing apples to apples.

    It even has some advantages:
    one handed operation
    copy and paste
    real file system for moving and storing data
    menus that make sense
    multi tasking

    I understand it's cool right now to hate on blackberry, I just don't understand why here?
    12-15-11 08:49 PM
  21. blue_k's Avatar
    RIM can pull it back in 2012 if:

    1. They get BB 10 out mostly bug free, the hardware competes with the latest from the Android and iPhone devices, and the software works great, feels fast, and they get more apps from Android.

    2. Increase marketing 10 fold, and push the great features BB 10 offers.

    If they can get those things right, I see them pulling it around fast. BB 10 would sell if they did it like that.
    Last edited by blue_k; 12-15-11 at 09:28 PM.
    12-15-11 09:26 PM
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