1. anon(832122)'s Avatar
    I am interested to know if anyone on Crackberry ever wondered how things would have played out for RIM if they had decided to license Windows (a la Nokia) or build an android version of blackberry versus building a new platform on QNX.

    Just a discussion, not saying BB10 won't deliver, just wondering what some people's opinions are on the subject.
    07-10-12 12:07 PM
  2. kbz1960's Avatar
    I think then they would be just another android or win phone manufacturer with nothing else to offer.
    07-10-12 12:14 PM
  3. anon(2757538)'s Avatar
    Wouldn't help...RIM isn't known for hardware and the Android market is already saturated.

    I think RIM would be in a worse spot as their hardware business loses money.
    07-10-12 12:16 PM
  4. ajst222's Avatar
    People buy BlackBerrys for the software. I would find it hard for me to buy just a hardware BB without the software.
    07-10-12 12:33 PM
  5. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    I am interested to know if anyone on Crackberry ever wondered how things would have played out for RIM if they had decided to license Windows (a la Nokia) or build an android version of blackberry versus building a new platform on QNX.

    Just a discussion, not saying BB10 won't deliver, just wondering what some people's opinions are on the subject.
    It's actually an excellent question, at least on the Windows side.

    Microsoft would likely be extremely happy to have RIM as a Windows Phone licensee. Particularly if RIM elected to adapt WP to its exclusive network features (BES/BIS/BBM, etc). I've been wondering the past while about MS taking a significant equity stake in RIM and basically co-opt them as a partner.

    I think this could be extremely beneficial to both sides, from a strictly practical point of view. BES/BIS would be a huge potential value-add for WP, and RIM would gain a strategic partner that in market terms would only do it good. The other thing RIM would get: a whole array of content partners that have already committed to WP.

    The downside for RIM: they're locked into Microsoft forever more. They lose control of the user experience, and essentially their business scope is reduced to that of operating their network infrastructure and collecting access fees. Blackberry becomes a Windows Phone and within a year or so BES/BIS becomes more widely available to all Windows Phones. At that point there is no longer any exclusivity to BES/BIS whatsoever.

    I don't like this scenario, but there's no denying it's a viable option, and frankly carries more certainty than BB10 does. If RIM and Microsoft announced such a partnership, I think you'd see an immediate 50% jump in RIM's share price. The scenario I see would have MS take a minority share, rather than buy outright (helps avoid Canadian government scrutiny and antitrust accusations).
    07-10-12 12:39 PM
  6. sleepngbear's Avatar
    I had a Palm Treo 650 that ran the Palm OS. It was he best phone I had ever owned at the time. Then I 'upgraded' to a Palm Treo 750 that ran Windows Mobile. It was the worst phone I have ever owned ... ever. I expect I'd have seen the same progression of sentiments if RIM had gone that route, regardless of the platform they chose.
    pantlesspenguin likes this.
    07-10-12 12:51 PM
  7. ElGusta's Avatar
    Microsoft and RIM appeared to be a natural match at the enterprise level, an area which RIM historically dominates and where they are still focusing their future.

    Since microsoft dominates enterprise at the desktop level, and RIM at the mobile level... a relationship would, in my opinion been successful.

    If successful with bb10, RIM must then worry about Microsoft blurring the line between desktop and mobile with Windows8, and what that would mean to RIM which only provides enterprise solutions at the mobile level.
    07-10-12 12:54 PM
  8. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    WP7 has NO manageability features, those are not coming until WP8. RIM would have immediately lost ANY company looking into any form of mobile security (anything past activesync's most basic security is not compatible with the OS). They would have lost a ton of customers doing this. As for Android, they would have almost zero profit from it (take a look, Samsung owns the Android marketplace, raking in ridiculous profits).
    amazinglygraceless likes this.
    07-10-12 12:56 PM
  9. iankeiththomas's Avatar
    A "Blackberry Android" might have made sense. Assuming (read: thinking wishfully) that RIM had managed to integrate its strengths in security and enterprise into Android, along with custom features like BBM, they might have wound up in a situation where, at the very least, "Blackberry" became the business-oriented flavor of Android vs. Samsung's media-centric approach. Hardly anyone can make a worthwhile Android QWERTY, for instance, and I can imagine a scenario in which something like a Torch that featured all of the Blackberry brand's strengths plus access to the vast Android app catalog is a successful device.

    It's basically what Amazon did with the Kindle Fire.

    Now, how feasible that would have been is obviously another story. And even if RIM were to release such a device tomorrow, it'd be too late.

    As far as Windows Phone is concerned, I think that ship sailed when Microsoft practically bought Nokia.
    07-10-12 11:10 PM
  10. sleepngbear's Avatar
    A "Blackberry Android" might have made sense. Assuming (read: thinking wishfully) that RIM had managed to integrate its strengths in security and enterprise into Android, along with custom features like BBM, they might have wound up in a situation where, at the very least, "Blackberry" became the business-oriented flavor of Android vs. Samsung's media-centric approach. Hardly anyone can make a worthwhile Android QWERTY, for instance, and I can imagine a scenario in which something like a Torch that featured all of the Blackberry brand's strengths plus access to the vast Android app catalog is a successful device.

    It's basically what Amazon did with the Kindle Fire.

    Now, how feasible that would have been is obviously another story. And even if RIM were to release such a device tomorrow, it'd be too late.

    As far as Windows Phone is concerned, I think that ship sailed when Microsoft practically bought Nokia.
    Even if it were possible for RIM to incorporate its strengths into an Android platform, it would still end up just one very small fish in the big sea of Android hardware vendors. With Google doing its own tab and talk of a phone, that's not a good place to be.
    07-11-12 11:35 AM
  11. BoldPreza's Avatar
    I think if they had gotten in earlier, like ahead of Nokia, then it would have been a brilliant partnership. But to be that success, it would have to have Apple like integration with all Microsoft systems. Phones, Tablets, Internet Explorer, SYNC and most importantly, networks and PC integration.

    IMO, a RIM and Android tie in would not work as RIM would have been completely lost in the crowd.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9860 using Tapatalk
    07-11-12 12:07 PM
  12. trsbbs's Avatar
    People buy BlackBerrys for the software. I would find it hard for me to buy just a hardware BB without the software.
    NEWS FLASH!

    The PB had state of the art hardware and the software blew big chunks out of the gate.

    The Bold 9900 and 9850 did not sell well..again good-great hardware. OS sucked.

    Folks are not buying BBs right now. (see marketshare reduction)

    Putting out two phones. One touch one with a BB Keyboard and making them top notch would be a seller.

    But then RIM would have to make dang sure BB10 (whatever you want to call this mystical OS no one has seen) was as good or better.
    Using BB10 to fill out the rest of the line up.

    I think RIM has the hardware means, but cannot write code to save their souls.

    Tim
    07-11-12 12:29 PM
  13. ajst222's Avatar
    Just let RIM do its own thing...both software AND hardware.
    07-11-12 12:32 PM
  14. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    WP7 has NO manageability features, those are not coming until WP8. RIM would have immediately lost ANY company looking into any form of mobile security (anything past activesync's most basic security is not compatible with the OS). They would have lost a ton of customers doing this. As for Android, they would have almost zero profit from it (take a look, Samsung owns the Android marketplace, raking in ridiculous profits).
    Agreed on the Android side. On the Windows side one might hope there's already a Fusion client in the offing, and that would suffice until better integration could be established.

    I still think Microsoft is RIM's lifeline. I'd rather they didn't have to use it, but i think it's their best fall-back.
    07-11-12 12:33 PM
  15. Branta's Avatar
    Considering that Windows Phone would require a complete redesign of the hardware, current release basically doesn't work, has zero security, and has proved to be a flop for Nokia... RIM would do better to cease trading and sell the few remaining assets.

    To be honest RIM might do better to withdraw totally from the troublesome US consumer market. Shift US focus to the business-only market, move to de-list NASDAQ and re-list on one of the european/asian exchanges where the shorts have no influence - or simply revert to Toronto alone. US is only around 5% of the total world cellular market, so figure they might lose at most 3% of turnover and make substantial gains in profitability.
    07-11-12 01:01 PM
  16. app_Developer's Avatar
    I had a Palm Treo 650 that ran the Palm OS. It was he best phone I had ever owned at the time. Then I 'upgraded' to a Palm Treo 750 that ran Windows Mobile. It was the worst phone I have ever owned ... ever. I expect I'd have seen the same progression of sentiments if RIM had gone that route, regardless of the platform they chose.
    To be fair to Microsoft, WP7 and WP8 are absolutely nothing like that old WM5/6. WP7 on Nokia hardware is actually a very nice experience.

    I think if RIM makes a WP8 phone with BBM, BES, BIS and all of that, it could be an interesting device. Certainly a more mature OS already than BB10 is or likely will be in 6 months.
    07-11-12 04:34 PM
  17. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I would argue that BlackBerry hardware and software both are not really that great.

    There were features of the device as a whole that were great, and maybe back in the early days RIM had the best hardware. But today for most users that hardware has been behind other manufactures in power and has not been very reliable as a JD Powers report showed.

    The OS... again it did some really great things in it's day, and still does the basics really well. But the Java platform was not designed for today's smartphones.

    But I do think that BB7 OS and Devices might have faired much better if the BB10 devices had not been expected just around the corner. Even RIM hasn't supported BB7 Development...
    07-11-12 04:50 PM
  18. cgk's Avatar
    You figure wrong, us still accounts for about 25% of RIM's revenue which is why they are in such a hole.


    [QUOTE=branta;7509878
    . US is only around 5% of the total world cellular market, so figure they might lose at most 3% of turnover and make substantial gains in profitability.[/QUOTE]


    Sent from my Lumia 800 using Board Express
    07-11-12 04:57 PM
  19. Plazmic Flame's Avatar
    If RIM had gone with Windows phone, just like Nokia, they would've become a hollow shell of their former self.

    Glad they decided not to bend over to Microsoft.
    07-11-12 05:23 PM
  20. iankeiththomas's Avatar
    Purely in terms of device quality, Nokia is doing better than it was prior to the WP7 adoption. Attempting to turn Symbian into the Frankenstein version of a modern mobile OS was never going to work, and while the switch to WP7 meant big tradeoffs in customization and imaging quality (among other things), nobody sane would deny that WP7 is much more pleasant to use than Symbian, and even its relatively sparse ecosystem leaves Symbian in the dust. Even apart from WP7, stuff like the PureView 808 showcases classic Nokia innovation.

    Nokia has issues to overcome, sure, but worst case scenario, Microsoft will probably just buy them and use them to crank out SurfacePhone or whatever.

    Regarding Blackberry hardware, I'd argue that's the one thing that RIM has continued to do mostly right. RIM has made some poor choices, sure (the Bold 9900 has tons of problems that a flagship device should not have), but RIM still makes great keyboards, low-end devices that withstand a lot of abuse, and even decent screens and cameras on devices like the 9810. Even reviews of RIM devices on tech sites that slam the archaic OS generally say good things about RIM hardware, and even the worst initial reviews of the Playbook noted that the hardware was great.
    07-11-12 07:26 PM
  21. sleepngbear's Avatar
    You figure wrong, us still accounts for about 25% of RIM's revenue which is why they are in such a hole.





    Sent from my Lumia 800 using Board Express
    Read what he said again. US is 5% of the total world cellular market, not RIM's current sales. Leaving the US (which I don't agree with, sorry branta) might cost them something close to 25% of their current revenue, but only 3-5% of total potential global revenue, only without the cost of trying to appease the spoiled brat US consumers or the tunnel-visioned US stock market.

    Yes, part of the reason they are in a hole is because they are losing the US market. What he's saying is the losses would be greatly mitigated if they didn't bother with the US market at all.
    07-11-12 08:02 PM
  22. app_Developer's Avatar
    Read what he said again. US is 5% of the total world cellular market, not RIM's current sales. Leaving the US (which I don't agree with, sorry branta) might cost them something close to 25% of their current revenue, but only 3-5% of total potential global revenue, only without the cost of trying to appease the spoiled brat US consumers or the tunnel-visioned US stock market.
    Are we talking about the smartphone market here or the cell phone market in general? Since RIM doesn't make feature phones, and feature phones don't make any money anyway (ask Nokia), then isn't the smartphone market what we care about? Is RIM going to make their big comeback on $10 phones?

    The largest smartphone market is China. Blackberry market share in China is falling to essentially nil. Everybody talks about the loss of US share, but the China share is just pitiful. This is in the largest smartphone market in the world that is growing at an incredible rate.

    BTW, what's interesting about this is that while RIM is working hard on their cool new keyboard for roman text, Google and Apple are making major improvements in their Chinese language inputs. Look at the chinese language keyboards in JB and iOS6.

    Then the second largest smartphone market in the world is the US. And of course, we know what is happening to Blackberry there.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 07-11-12 at 08:22 PM.
    07-11-12 08:11 PM
  23. cgk's Avatar
    Read what he said again. US is 5% of the total world cellular market, not RIM's current sales. Leaving the US (which I don't agree with, sorry branta) might cost them something close to 25% of their current revenue, but only 3-5% of total potential global revenue,
    No that's not what he said:

    US is only around 5% of the total world cellular market, so figure they might lose at most 3% of turnover and make substantial gains in profitability.
    07-12-12 02:13 AM
  24. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Tastes great!
    Less filling!

    Read it any way you want.
    07-12-12 11:27 AM
  25. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    To be fair to Microsoft, WP7 and WP8 are absolutely nothing like that old WM5/6. WP7 on Nokia hardware is actually a very nice experience.

    I think if RIM makes a WP8 phone with BBM, BES, BIS and all of that, it could be an interesting device. Certainly a more mature OS already than BB10 is or likely will be in 6 months.
    I'm not sure you could call WP8 that much "more mature" when it hasn't even come out yet, and is essentially a whole new platform. Otherwise, I completely agree with you.

    Again, this is basically why I think that BB10 is A) real and B) will meet its Q1 target. If RIM didn't have good reason to believe that they had BB10 right then they could hit the panic button and have MS swoop in to save them.

    Granted, perhaps there is some lingering sense of hubris that is deluding the RIM executive (the ghost of Jim Balsillie's ego, perhaps?), and they're still out of touch with reality, but I'd like to think that those days are largely behind them...
    07-12-12 12:00 PM
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