09-07-17 11:34 AM
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  1. AmritD's Avatar
    Came across this rather interesting perspective.
    Worth a read

    https://techspective.net/2017/09/01/...marter-iphone/

    Posted via CB10
    Bbnivende likes this.
    09-02-17 05:09 AM
  2. kvndoom's Avatar
    Honestly, most of Troy's posts (and I feel bad the poor guy always has to repeat himself) cover all those points and with much better detail.
    09-02-17 05:17 AM
  3. AmritD's Avatar
    Honestly, most of Troy's posts (and I feel bad the poor guy always has to repeat himself) cover all those points and with much better detail.
    Will definitely agree with that.
    He writes really well.
    Don't remember him writing something specific to the keyboard

    Posted via CB10
    09-02-17 09:48 AM
  4. Emaderton3's Avatar
    Read the comment posted by a former BlackBerry employee!

    Posted via CB10
    09-02-17 10:20 AM
  5. Elephant_Canyon's Avatar
    Badly written, meandering, and pointless. Never really gets into the dynamics of the industry, or how Blackberry was making money at the time (through service access fees, not device sales), and tries to rehash the tired, oft-debunked "It's all about teh murrrrketengz!!!1!" argument. And the author keeps going on about how touchscreens are unsafe, but never explains what is unsafe about them.

    ETA: I just went back to see who wrote this. Enderle. Should've stopped reading right there.
    Last edited by Elephant_Canyon; 09-02-17 at 10:49 AM.
    shaleem and Dunt Dunt Dunt like this.
    09-02-17 10:35 AM
  6. mtdyson's Avatar
    Badly written, meandering, and pointless. Never really gets into the dynamics of the industry, or how Blackberry was making money at the time (through service access fees, not device sales), and tries to rehash the tired, oft-debunked "It's all about teh murrrrketengz!!!1!" argument. And the author keeps going on about how touchscreens are unsafe, but never explains what is unsafe about them.

    ETA: I just went back to see who wrote this. Enderle. Should've stopped reading right there.
    His whole unsafe theory is you can't blind type on a VKB and you can on a PKB. He states it in second to last paragraph. A pretty weak argument and probably the reason BB never pursued it as a marketing campaign.
    Came across this rather interesting perspective.
    Worth a read

    https://techspective.net/2017/09/01/...marter-iphone/

    Posted via CB10
    shaleem likes this.
    09-02-17 10:59 AM
  7. MikeX74's Avatar
    Enderle wrote it? This sounds like his particular brand of drivel.
    09-02-17 11:12 AM
  8. Eumaeus's Avatar
    Enderle is a dyed-in-the-wool Apple hater. Which is fine of course, but it damages the value of his "insights." Any tech company that believes Apple's success to be due to "marketing ", will never, ever compete effectively.
    09-02-17 12:54 PM
  9. idssteve's Avatar
    RIM had ONE chance to "win" against Apple... Storm was it. Slim chance at that, given Apple's decades of experience at understanding user learning curves, among MANY resources Apple outclassed tiny RIM with. Once RIM legitimized iPhone by building an iPhone look alike, and then utterly failed at that attempt, they were doomed to single digit market share, imo. Abandoning their LOYAL client base in misguided effort to somehow overtake Apple's share derailed any hope of preserving even single digit market share, imo. Fwiw.
    Bbnivende likes this.
    09-03-17 11:12 AM
  10. app_Developer's Avatar
    RIM had ONE chance to "win" against Apple... Storm was it. Slim chance at that, given Apple's decades of experience at understanding user learning curves, among MANY resources Apple outclassed tiny RIM with. Once RIM legitimized iPhone by building an iPhone look alike, and then utterly failed at that attempt, they were doomed to single digit market share, imo. Abandoning their LOYAL client base in misguided effort to somehow overtake Apple's share derailed any hope of preserving even single digit market share, imo. Fwiw.
    I think you make a really good point. Another example of this was the equally misguided attempt to go after the iPad.

    "Amateur hour is over". Right.

    They would have still needed a modern OS, but maybe they would have kept some share if they made a better Bold rather than a weaker iPhone.
    MikeX74 and Bbnivende like this.
    09-03-17 11:28 AM
  11. mrsimon's Avatar
    with hindsight it's easy to come up with theories.
    You can learn from the past, But you can't change it however much you rewrite it...
    app_Developer and Bbnivende like this.
    09-03-17 11:37 AM
  12. TGR1's Avatar
    Badly written, meandering, and pointless. Never really gets into the dynamics of the industry, or how Blackberry was making money at the time (through service access fees, not device sales), and tries to rehash the tired, oft-debunked "It's all about teh murrrrketengz!!!1!" argument. And the author keeps going on about how touchscreens are unsafe, but never explains what is unsafe about them.

    ETA: I just went back to see who wrote this. Enderle. Should've stopped reading right there.
    lol as soon as I saw the author name I was "Uh-huh..." Guess he is plausible to the newer generation, though, like far too many tech "reporters".
    09-03-17 11:40 AM
  13. idssteve's Avatar
    Enderle is a dyed-in-the-wool Apple hater. Which is fine of course, but it damages the value of his "insights." Any tech company that believes Apple's success to be due to "marketing ", will never, ever compete effectively.
    Understanding your target is an essential component of "marketing". Apple has demonstrated superb mastery of effective targeting AND marketing for decades. They leveraged their decades of "short learning curve" GUI experience into iOS. To obvious effect.

    RIM, in response, abandoned their 10+ years of user efficient GUI experience with BB10. Effectively abandoning 10s of M of LOYAL users in pursuit of "sort of Apple" market that RIM clearly didn't understand.

    It's true that no amount of "marketing" will make a success out of a miserable product. BUT, you won't sell a single example of the best product if NO one knows it exists. Given RIM/BBRY's utter absence of marketing presence, it's pretty clear they did NOT "believe Apple's success to be due to 'marketing'..." if BB believed that, they'd have made SOME effort in response, beyond SuperBowl. lol. They still never, ever competed successfully.

    ZERO marketing, outside of Crackberry, clearly wasn't a path to success, either. They simply lacked resources necessary to build a new platform from complete scratch AND afford to market it. Imo.
    09-04-17 10:20 AM
  14. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Don't remember him writing something specific to the keyboard.
    There just isn't a lot to say about it.

    PKBs existed because until a high-quality multi-touch digitizer could be put on a phone (and paired with quality software for the keyboard - equally important!), a PKB was the most effective way to get text input into the phone. But Apple made a huge leap forward with the VKB, and made it useable for most people for the first time. There had been VKBs before, but they were terrible.

    Moving to a VKB obviously meant a loss of tactile feedback as well as the keyboard shortcuts that BB did a really good job developing, but it also came with a number of significant advantages, among them:

    - the front of the phone could finally be "all screen", allowing a far bigger and better screen for media usage without having to increase the overall size of the phone. The flexibility of the limited resource (the screen) was enormously increased.

    - VKBs allow changes to be made to the keyboard by the end-user. Whether that means a different input language or a different programming design, it's just a matter of software selection. A PKB required hardware changes that most users aren't prepared to do.

    - The above point also means that a single model can be used in any country - no more multiple SKUs due to different PKB variants. That means much simpler inventory control and reduce costs, and while Apple might not have passed along the savings, the Android manufacturers certainly did.

    - VKB also means much simpler physical design of the phone (far fewer mechanical parts), and makes it much easier to make water and dust resistant.

    - VKB even allows "non-KB" input - say, in a game, where you have virtual joysticks on the screen instead of having to use keys. Really, there's no limit to what a developer can think up as far as input.

    - And while a relatively small number of people did a significant amount of text-based content creation on their phones, most people use their phones primarily for consumption, or for MULTIMEDIA content creation (plenty of pictures or videos in addition to text), which favors the VKB and larger screen.

    Ultimately, the market decided that the larger screen area and VKB combo's advantages outweighed the advantages of the PKB and they bought full-screen devices by the hundreds of millions. And the market is smarter than some folks here like to give them credit for - if VKBs didn't work for them, they wouldn't have bought multiple generations of them; they'd have gone to/back to the PKB. But they didn't, because VKBs worked just fine for them.
    TGR1 likes this.
    09-04-17 10:37 AM
  15. idssteve's Avatar
    Yet, Storm 1, Storm 2, PlayBook, Z10, Z30, Z3, D50, D60... have all failed to recapture market share even to single digits... clearly issues at work running far deeper than simple PKB vs VKB, imo. Just goes to show that it doesn't take very shaky aim to miss an "easy" target.

    Likewise, bb managed to miss "easy" targets while stranding too much legacy migration by omitting key hardware features with nearly every PKB offering since Bold. Us PKB users are HARDWARE oriented, after all.

    I agree with Troy on most things but the assertion that "THE market has chosen" would be more convincing if the market truly had a choice. It hasn't since 2011 and still does not, imo.

    That's not to say comfortably sized PKB could ever challenge supersized VKB consumer market share. Only that the bottlenecks to small volume niche production can't monopolize into "one size fits ALL" indefinitely. Fwiw, I'm predicting technology will one day evolve back to enough variety to offer "THE" market a genuine choice... within the next couple centuries, at least. Lol. Remember you heard it here...
    09-04-17 01:37 PM
  16. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Almost every Android phone prior to the original Galaxy S had a PKB, but as soon as customers had a choice, they overwhelmingly chose all-touch models over PKB models. PKBs continued to be offered for several more years, especially Verizon's Droid series, but sales plummeted while slab sales skyrocketed. You can't argue that there was no choice - you just disagree with the choice that the market made.

    And with the high cost associated with making a smartphone, and all the added complexity (hardware, software, development, and testing) that goes into a PKB phone, you're lucky that they still exist at all - which is why I'd encourage you to buy every PKB phone that BB releases, whether you love it or not. The numbers are already so small that I seriously question how long TCL will stay committed to the PKB.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    09-04-17 04:03 PM
  17. idssteve's Avatar
    Almost every Android phone prior to the original Galaxy S had a PKB, but as soon as customers had a choice, they overwhelmingly chose all-touch models over PKB models. PKBs continued to be offered for several more years, especially Verizon's Droid series, but sales plummeted while slab sales skyrocketed. You can't argue that there was no choice - you just disagree with the choice that the market made.

    And with the high cost associated with making a smartphone, and all the added complexity (hardware, software, development, and testing) that goes into a PKB phone, you're lucky that they still exist at all - which is why I'd encourage you to buy every PKB phone that BB releases, whether you love it or not. The numbers are already so small that I seriously question how long TCL will stay committed to the PKB.
    Well, you're right, I disagree with the choices that have been offered. Awful PKB offers no more choice than awful VKB. What will it take make a successful BB branded VKB device?

    You're also right about being lucky they exist at all. I have, do, and will continue, buying handsets that most closely fill my needs. Keyone is on the way... I just feel conflicted about whether that strategy is encouraging larger, and larger, handsets with each purchase???

    As with nearly all "new" technologies, I expect the complexity of development to streamline with time... and competition... Surely, SOMEday, we'll be able to configure our own personal handsets... ?? . Maybe by 2317?? Lol.
    09-04-17 04:41 PM
  18. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I recall reading a survey taken late 2012 or perhaps early in 2013. Only 33 percent of BlackBerry owners at the time were looking to stay with BlackBerry.

    BlackBerry knew that the BIS party would soon end in Nigeria and Indonesia and they could not make a profit on 200 dollar phones.

    Long story short, they should have known that the migration they got was about all they could hope for.

    I agree with Tony . There will be no Keytwo if all of the BB10 holdouts do not purchase a KEYone by the next MWC.
    09-05-17 01:42 AM
  19. idssteve's Avatar
    That 33% sounds about right to me. 33% of their 2012 userbase represents 10s of millions of loyal users that got stranded by stupidity on BB's part. What they didn't realize was that loyal userbase was more loyal to hardware and GUI configuration than to BB itself. Issuing Barely Baked Q10 without even a toolbelt represented "bait & switch" betrayal to no small few of us. Expecting to coerce legacy migration through Bold's premature euthanasia represented arrogant stupidity, to some of us. How many would stay with a company who stranded them? What were the odds those FORCED to migrate would migrate to Q and not to competitive platforms? I just don't think BB understood the market they thought they were targeting any better than they understood their legacy users.

    Their excuse for abandoning the ergonomic KB said it all... a result of "in-house" testing... lol. Give me a break! MY "in-house" testing utterly refutes that. Lol. If they had taken time to get out of their "hallowed halls" and did some field research and honestly listened to what users were wanting, they had a chance to retain their LOYAL niche. Hard to understand what ANYone wants from within an ivory tower.

    Let me be clear. Expecting any company to suffer loss of return just to produce a product I like is utter nonsense. There's no doubt that most users want slabs. "Most" does NOT represent all, however. There is no such thing as a monolithic "THE market". Especially one as saturated as the current market. Is there really room for ANY more slabs? Niche crumbs falling unnoticed from Samsung/Apple's mighty table just might prove sustainable.? Or not?? No rational hope of world dominance. Lol. BUT 10, 20 or even 30M of those stranded users might have provided some dim hope of survival and maybe even a little profit, if approached smartly.

    Intelligence has nothing to do with what you know. It has everything to do with what you're willing to learn. Once you've concluded you know everything that needs knowing, learning ceases. BB's market research either failed them, or they elected to ignore it. Smart clearly wasn't part of the options they pursued. Or, like their KB excuse, maybe their market research was conducted "in-house", also... lol.

    Btw, I'm chomping at the bit to get my hands on Keyone... still on order.... ATT is no option for lack of coverage where I frequent. I'm tempted by some eBay offers but... never know who to trust... ???
    Last edited by idssteve; 09-05-17 at 05:27 AM.
    09-05-17 05:14 AM
  20. Bbnivende's Avatar
    The 33 percent should be divided by 2 because BB10 did not require BIS. Regardless, the potential market was too small to support an ecosystem.

    The problem going forward is how to make an all touch phone that has the feel of a BlackBerry when BlackBerry never had a memorable iconic model themselves .
    09-05-17 06:11 PM
  21. Emaderton3's Avatar
    The 33 percent should be divided by 2 because BB10 did not require BIS. Regardless, the potential market was too small to support an ecosystem.

    The problem going forward is how to make an all touch phone that has the feel of a BlackBerry when BlackBerry never had a memorable iconic model themselves .
    Exactly. A slab phone is not going to cut it as a genuine BlackBerry for most people.

    Posted via CB10
    09-05-17 06:15 PM
  22. bobshine's Avatar
    There was no way for BB to react more smartly to iOS. BB was years behind in OS development... it wasn't a one time thing.

    They sat on BBOS for way too long. BB10 should had been launch to compete with the first iPhone.... physical or virtual keyboard.

    Instead they played catch-up and came up with the horrible storm, on BBOS and all it's limitations. Then we had to live with Storm 2, then the playbook... the Torch... omg

    They weren't bad phones. But put side by side with the iPhone, they are antics.
    09-05-17 08:12 PM
  23. early2bed's Avatar
    Nothing about RIM/BlackBerry leads me to believe that they could have done anything but try to imitate what Apple did with the design, marketing, and ecosystem of the iPhone. There was some serious talent at Apple aside from Steve Jobs. Just the logistics of delivering the phone just weeks after launch is pretty amazing. They are the only ones that have gotten retail to work for them. You could have given Blackberry the plans for the IPhone two years ahead of time and they still wouldn’t have been able to compete.
    idssteve and TGR1 like this.
    09-05-17 11:21 PM
  24. idssteve's Avatar
    BB never commanded resources nor consumer experience to butt heads with Apple or Google. Every attempt at "desperately seeking slab" has met embarrassing failure. Expecting they'll EVER somehow produce a better, cheaper Samsung or iPhone is folly, imo.

    What if... what if Mike had never met Dan. What if RIM had never messed with QNX/BB10 and instead devoted their energies toward migrating legacy GUI into Android 9900's.?? ????

    Could it be argued they wouldn't be any worse now? Maybe even surviving? Possibly thriving in their PKB niche that THEY best understood...???

    Engineers love "what ifs", I guess. Lol.
    Chuck Finley69 likes this.
    09-06-17 06:11 AM
  25. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    BB never commanded resources nor consumer experience to butt heads with Apple or Google. Every attempt at "desperately seeking slab" has met embarrassing failure. Expecting they'll EVER somehow produce a better, cheaper Samsung or iPhone is folly, imo.

    What if... what if Mike had never met Dan. What if RIM had never messed with QNX/BB10 and instead devoted their energies toward migrating legacy GUI into Android 9900's.?? ????

    Could it be argued they wouldn't be any worse now? Maybe even surviving? Possibly thriving in their PKB niche that THEY best understood...???

    Engineers love "what ifs", I guess. Lol.
    They'd have $$ billions $$ more left in the checking account that would have been saved from waste on BB10.
    09-06-17 07:11 AM
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