[Troy Tiscareno]

It's funny how at one time the entire world typed on Blackberrys and a physical keyboards, that was the norm with no complaints. Today major OEMs won't take that chance and I'm guessing that the choice boils down to less moving parts and less chance for repair/return/loss of profits.

It's about sales volumes and making profits. That's what businesses are in business to do, after all. Every smartphone company that existed in 2008 used to make PKB phones, but once good all-touch phones existed, PKB sales dropped off quickly, making them unprofitable, and those manufacturers phased them out. If manufacturers thought that they could make profits similar to all-touch phones by making PKB phones, they'd be happy to do so - at the end of the day, profits is what counts. But they have PLENTY of data that tells them that PKB phones aren't profitable anymore.

Manufacturers do surveys all the time, asking users what they want to see in future phones. PKBs are not a feature that the vast majority care about - and remember that there were about 150+ million people who have owned PKB phones in the past (BB alone had about 100M unique phone customers over the years), so it's not like "no one knows what a PKB can do for them" - they just don't want them anymore. Most people prioritize screen size and having the flexibility to use that larger screen for other things besides text entry.

It's certainly true that all-touch phones are less complicated to make and less likely to have problems, and definitely easier to give an IP rating (water resistance), so those things certainly factors, but OEMs have managed those issues before and would do it again if PKB phones were profitable - but they aren't, not at the levels that major manufacturers play at.

A Kickstarter phone can make a single variant with limited compatibility (not just cellular radio compatibility, but with things like mobile payments) and without a great-performing camera and without wireless charging, IP ratings, or other things common to major OEMs, and they certainly don't have the support infrastructure (you won't be able to drive to a cell phone store and get your phone fixed the same day), so they can survive on small production runs. They also don't have to do much if any after-sale software support. A major OEM will face much higher expectations.

Ultimately, BB certainly didn't prove that there was a path to profitability making PKB phones - quite the opposite - so OEMs have that data in addition to their own. And all signs point to the same result.

[eshropshire]

It's funny how at one time the entire world typed on Blackberrys and a physical keyboards, that was the norm with no complaints. Today major OEMs won't take that chance and I'm guessing that the choice boils down to less moving parts and less chance for repair/return/loss of profits.

Hammered out on my Precious Passport

Actually, very few typed on PKB phones. Ten years ago the smartphone market was a fraction of the size it is today. Even then many that did use PKB phones did not like the trade off of screen size for a keyboard, including me. I had PKB phones before 2009. In the last ten years I have never missed a PKB. I work in the tech world and have never once heard some say they wish phones had a PKB.

Like Troy said, several yeara ago almost all Android OEMs sold PKB phones. Considering how desperate companies like LG, HTC and others have been to differentiate themselves. If they saw a market for PKB phones they would jump on it in a heartbeat. If one of the kickstarters are successful maybe we will see more PKB phones.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Actually, very few typed on PKB phones. Ten years ago the smartphone market was a fraction of the size it is today. Even then many that did use PKB phones did not like the trade off of screen size for a keyboard, including me. I had PKB phones before 2009. In the last ten years I have never missed a PKB. I work in the tech world and have never once heard some say they wish phones had a PKB.

Like Troy said, several yeara ago almost all Android OEMs sold PKB phones. Considering how desperate companies like LG, HTC and others have been to differentiate themselves. If they saw a market for PKB phones they would jump on it in a heartbeat. If one of the kickstarters are successful maybe we will see more PKB phones.

That's the thing most here forget....

If there is enough demand for a PKB phone, someone will make one. But it's pretty clear there isn't enough for Apple, Samsung, Huawei or Nokia to bother with it. Maybe one of the smaller OEMs that are struggling will attempt it.... LG, Moto or Sony.

I wouldn't be surprised if another kickstarter tired.... but that's not saying all that much.

[the_boon]

Maybe a future foldable will have a PKB if the OEM wants to market it as a "do-it-all device"

Think a Galaxy Fold style device with a PKB on the outer screen and a stylus.

That way screen-size obsessed people would get their gigantic display, and the keyboard and stylus would be excellent productivity tools to have.

All in one hardware package that fits in your pocket.

That seems to be the only future I could see for PKB's in general consumer oriented devices

[eshropshire]

Maybe a future foldable will have a PKB if the OEM wants to market it as a "do-it-all device"

Think a Galaxy Fold style device with a PKB on the outer screen and a stylus.

That way screen-size obsessed people would get their gigantic display, and the keyboard and stylus would be excellent productivity tools to have.

All in one hardware package that fits in your pocket.

That seems to be the only future I could see for PKB's in general consumer oriented devices

I think the biggest problem PKB phones face is the vast majority of the smartphone users have never used a PKB and are very comfortable with VKB. I started off years ago with PKB phones and today I am very comfortable with and enjoy using VKB. For me a PKB on a phone would be like adding a rotary dial (emphasis For Me).

I never play games on my phone, but occasionally on a plane or while in transit will watch a movie. Most of my usage is using MS Business Apps. A big screen is very helpful, permanently losing a third of the screen for a PKB would provide me zero benefit, actually would be a negative.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Right. And a manufacturer is going to need to sell a minimum of 2M phones a year for a PKB to be worthwhile, which means a minimum of 4M unique buyers who will buy the the phone at full retail every 2-year cycle - regardless of any flaws it might have, real or imagined.

By comparison, in 2017, BBMo sold 660k phones worldwide, including those manufactured for the other licensees AND any residual DTEK phones. In 2018 that number dropped by half to 330k. That means that demand is less than 1/4 of what would be needed to make the project worthwhile - except when you factor in that sales have been dropping by an average of 50% a year for the last 9 years, so even those numbers aren't sustainable.

If someone came to your company with a plan for a product with that data behind it, you would laugh them out of the building - if you were nice.

[phuoc]

Just turn off the lights, the party is over :-(

[Emaderton3]

I think the biggest problem PKB phones face is the vast majority of the smartphone users have never used a PKB and are very comfortable with VKB. I started off years ago with PKB phones and today I am very comfortable with and enjoy using VKB. For me a PKB on a phone would be like adding a rotary dial (emphasis For Me).

I never play games on my phone, but occasionally on a plane or while in transit will watch a movie. Most of my usage is using MS Business Apps. A big screen is very helpful, permanently losing a third of the screen for a PKB would provide me zero benefit, actually would be a negative.

What, you are professionally productive on a phone without a keyboard?!

[John Albert]

Off topic,

January is very close and I still didn't get December security patch for my Key2 Red.

Anybody knows about this?

[conite]

Off topic,

January is very close and I still didn't get December security patch for my Key2 Red.

Anybody knows about this?

Haven't seen any Dec builds for any device or variant yet.

[bb10adopter111]

I think the biggest problem PKB phones face is the vast majority of the smartphone users have never used a PKB and are very comfortable with VKB. I started off years ago with PKB phones and today I am very comfortable with and enjoy using VKB. For me a PKB on a phone would be like adding a rotary dial (emphasis For Me).

I never play games on my phone, but occasionally on a plane or while in transit will watch a movie. Most of my usage is using MS Business Apps. A big screen is very helpful, permanently losing a third of the screen for a PKB would provide me zero benefit, actually would be a negative.

I also don't need a PKB to be very productive typing all day long on my phone, but I would be happy to use one if it provided universal utility across all apps. The problem with a PKB on Android is that it's not really integrated into the Android experience.

What made BBOS and BB10 BlackBerries special was the way that the PKB did so much more than support text entry. Just like on PCs the keyboard shortcuts were extensive and speeded up work tremendously.

To be relevant, a proper PKB/Android experience would have to make it possible to keep my hands on the keyboard for 95% of my activities, without constantly having to swipe and tap the screen. Task switching, accessing settings and permissions, and next/previous object selection would have been a good start, as well as scrolling shortcuts within feeds.

Without that kind of tight integration across all apps, integration that only the Google Android team could provide through the OS itself, I don't see a KEY-sytle PKB as an advantage. I found the KEY phones too large and unbalanced, with the PKB essentially an appendage on the bottom of a slab rather than an integrated interface.

From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.

[the_boon]

Right. And a manufacturer is going to need to sell a minimum of 2M phones a year for a PKB to be worthwhile, which means a minimum of 4M unique buyers who will buy the the phone at full retail every 2-year cycle - regardless of any flaws it might have, real or imagined.

By comparison, in 2017, BBMo sold 660k phones worldwide, including those manufactured for the other licensees AND any residual DTEK phones. In 2018 that number dropped by half to 330k. That means that demand is less than 1/4 of what would be needed to make the project worthwhile - except when you factor in that sales have been dropping by an average of 50% a year for the last 9 years, so even those numbers aren't sustainable.

If someone came to your company with a plan for a product with that data behind it, you would laugh them out of the building - if you were nice.

Got any data to back up that estimate of less than 660k KEYone's ?

[howarmat]

Got any data to back up that estimate of less than 660k KEYone's ?

its from the rumour thread

[Troy Tiscareno]

Got any data to back up that estimate of less than 660k KEYone's ?

https://forums.crackberry.com/news-r...umors-1177487/

[saint300]

Except a device on Oreo, even with only 6-8 months left of security patches, will have solid Play Store support for 5 years+. That also includes constantly-updating, on-device Play Protect software.

Except I don't even have Play Store on my PP, and I feel fine! After all, as many have said, you included, there's other ways to get apps in the end. And as things have turned out, I can't really see how the Android Blackberry devices have more of an edge over BB10 ones.

[conite]

Except I don't even have Play Store on my PP, and I feel fine! After all, as many have said, you included, there's other ways to get apps in the end. And as things have turned out, I can't really see how the Android Blackberry devices have more of an edge over BB10 ones.

Save repeating what I already said, BlackBerry Android will enjoy a functioning ecosystem for many years to come with up-to-date apps and on-device security updates via Play Protect.

Most Android apps that are compatible with BB10 have already been deprecated due to security issues, feature upgrades, API incompatibility, or server-side blocks.

Unless you don't really use apps, I would MUCH prefer to be "stranded" on Oreo than a semi-compatible version of Jellybean from 7.5 years ago.

[the_boon]

I would MUCH prefer to be "stranded" on Oreo than a semi-compatible version of Jellybean from 7.5 years ago.

This is obvious but yet many would prefer to be stranded on the latter

[saint300]

Save repeating what I already said, BlackBerry Android will enjoy a functioning ecosystem for many years to come with up-to-date apps and on-device security updates via Play Protect.

Most Android apps that are compatible with BB10 have already been deprecated due to security issues, feature upgrades, API incompatibility, or server-side blocks.

Unless you don't really use apps, I would MUCH prefer to be "stranded" on Oreo than a semi-compatible version of Jellybean from 7.5 years ago.

Fair enough. So, please let me ask you this. If I decided to buy a Key device, I would get no more OS updates, but I would have security ones? And being stuck on Oreo would be considered an OK situation, when Android has already launched 10, or whatever it is called? I am asking not because I want to contradict you, actually I have started thinking I may buy a Key phone as my 2nd backup device, but at the same time I cannot understand why you insist on the assumption that most Android apps are not compatible with BB10 when we have discussed here that most of the apps BB10 users want, are still alive and well. At least, the really useful ones.

[conite]

Fair enough. So, please let me ask you this. If I decided to buy a Key device, I would get no more OS updates, but I would have security ones? And being stuck on Oreo would be considered an OK situation, when Android has already launched 10, or whatever it is called? I am asking not because I want to contradict you, actually I have started thinking I may buy a Key phone as my 2nd backup device, but at the same time I cannot understand why you insist on the assumption that most Android apps are not compatible with BB10 when we have discussed here that most of the apps BB10 users want, are still alive and well. At least, the really useful ones.

Well, regardless of any other consideration, it puts you 5 years ahead of the game compared to BB10.

There are many aspects to security, Play Protect being one of them - and that should continue indefinitely. The KEY² and KEY² LE still have another 6-8 months of security patches left, whereas the KEYᵒⁿᵉ is already done with those. All BBMo devices have BlackBerry Integrity Detection which offers an additional layer of resiliency against unknown future attacks.

Incidentally, BB10 compatibility with the current version of Android apps is about 1 in 10 to 1 in 20. That number is only improved by hunting down and using older, deprecated versions of some of those apps (or attempting to strip away dependencies on Play Services).

[the_boon]

Well, regardless of any other consideration, it puts you 5 years ahead of the game compared to BB10.

There are many aspects to security, Play Protect being one of them - and that should continue indefinitely. The KEY² and KEY² LE still have another 6-8 months of security patches left, whereas the KEYᵒⁿᵉ is already done with those. All BBMo devices have BlackBerry Integrity Detection which offers an additional layer of resiliency against unknown future attacks.

Incidentally, BB10 compatibility with the current version of Android apps is about 1 in 10 to 1 in 20. That number is only improved by hunting down and using older, deprecated versions of some of those apps (or attempting to strip away dependencies on Play Services).

But yet you're still gonna jump ship (to your Pixel 3?) 2 months after the updates stop

[Chuck Finley69]

Fair enough. So, please let me ask you this. If I decided to buy a Key device, I would get no more OS updates, but I would have security ones? And being stuck on Oreo would be considered an OK situation, when Android has already launched 10, or whatever it is called? I am asking not because I want to contradict you, actually I have started thinking I may buy a Key phone as my 2nd backup device, but at the same time I cannot understand why you insist on the assumption that most Android apps are not compatible with BB10 when we have discussed here that most of the apps BB10 users want, are still alive and well. At least, the really useful ones.

If the apps that most users wanted stayed compatible, I could use my BB10 hardware still. It appears that many remaining BB10 users convince themselves certain apps no longer matter as they move to 4.4 and higher.

If BB10 had been successful, it wouldn’t be a topic here any longer. We’d be awaiting with excitement for BB17 and when glitches happened in January it’d be arguments over BB17.0.1 or wait for BB17.1 instead. The reality is that Oreo is still has better OS and ecosystem support by thousands of developers inside and outside Google and it’s larger partners.

[Chuck Finley69]

But yet you're still gonna jump ship (to your Pixel 3?) 2 months after the updates stop

Interchangeably with the Nokia 7.2 for perfection

[conite]

But yet you're still gonna jump ship (to your Pixel 3?) 2 months after the updates stop

I haven't set a date or anything. But I have the added responsibility of looking out for the safety of clients' data too.

If it was just mine, I'd be more flexible.

[saint300]

If the apps that most users wanted stayed compatible, I could use my BB10 hardware still. It appears that many remaining BB10 users convince themselves certain apps no longer matter as they move to 4.4 and higher.

If BB10 had been successful, it wouldn’t be a topic here any longer. We’d be awaiting with excitement for BB17 and when glitches happened in January it’d be arguments over BB17.0.1 or wait for BB17.1 instead. The reality is that Oreo is still has better OS and ecosystem support by thousands of developers inside and outside Google and it’s larger partners.

Having followed your comments on a number of threads, I would think that you wouldn't use your BB10 devices anymore.

In other words, while all remaining BB10 users at this forum at least, are happy to find solutions to their issues, and they do find them, you have chosen a different path; which is fine, don't get me wrong here, it's just different to what I choose, and many others for that matter.

Also, talking about the success or failure of BB10 can only be on the sales perspective, and here you are obviously right. It failed abysmally, but you do know that it was not because of the OS itself, but for a number of other, marketing and time related matters. After all, with Android 10 what we have now is a case where Google has "borrowed" some BB10 innovative features from 5 years ago!!

Anyways, I don't think we can ever agree on this, because you talk about sales, whereas I talk about functionality. But all opinions do matter in the end!

[Chuck Finley69]

Having followed your comments on a number of threads, I would think that you wouldn't use your BB10 devices anymore.

In other words, while all remaining BB10 users at this forum at least, are happy to find solutions to their issues, and they do find them, you have chosen a different path; which is fine, don't get me wrong here, it's just different to what I choose, and many others for that matter.

Also, talking about the success or failure of BB10 can only be on the sales perspective, and here you are obviously right. It failed abysmally, but you do know that it was not because of the OS itself, but for a number of other, marketing and time related matters. After all, with Android 10 what we have now is a case where Google has "borrowed" some BB10 innovative features from 5 years ago!!

Anyways, I don't think we can ever agree on this, because you talk about sales, whereas I talk about functionality. But all opinions do matter in the end!

Ironically, many of the features everyone attributes to BB10, according to my better half Mrs Finley, come from PalmOS and webOS or she claims.


My point was simply BB10 is a seven year old mobile OS that hasn’t been updated for years. I still use my BB10 hardware for CB10 sometimes but that’s about it since native apps only since I already have Android/iOS solutions.

I’ve never been loyal to anything mobile since I enjoy all the OS platforms and my profession is heavily regulated. BTW, I own all 8 separate BB10 device models and I’ve never sold a single BB hardware piece in 15+ years. I’ve always been critical since that’s a lot of hard earned money.