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10-01-14 02:45 PM
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  1. Emaderton3's Avatar
    Where are the numbers for the Z outselling the Q? I had not seen those.

    I also work in an area that was once dominated by BlackBerry. And yes, everyone complains about their iPhones. But they won't switch and would rather use a device inadequate for their needs. Even though the Z30 is out there, and even free on some carriers. So why make another?

    Believe me, I see your point. And they did lack marketing and all that goes along with that. Sometimes I wonder if the new phones are simply a way for them to show off all the enterprise stuff in the hopes that it is adopted? If the phones end up being a casualty, then they move on. I hope that doesn't happen.

    Posted via CB10
    andy957 likes this.
    09-28-14 07:32 AM
  2. kbz1960's Avatar
    Passports are sold out across Canada, on Amazon and BlackBerry. I don't think that 99.5% of the market wants touchscreen phones, the OP and other TS fans are projecting their own preferences onto the entire market.

    A lot of professionals are tired of endless editing of emails or appearing as semi-literate imbeciles through their writing. It's just that BlackBerry hadn't released a kb phone that was worth switching to - until now.

    Posted via CB10
    So until the passport bb didn't make a phone any of those people wanted? Interesting.

    Passport being sold out is good. But they didn't make many and let's see if it's initial bb fans buying and things will tapper way off or if interest continues.
    09-28-14 07:39 AM
  3. Banco's Avatar
    So until the passport bb didn't make a phone any of those people wanted? Interesting.

    Passport being sold out is good. But they didn't make many and let's see if it's initial bb fans buying and things will tapper way off or if interest continues.
    Who knows why a certain device piques interest? For whatever reason, mainly I guess because it's so different, this one has. The form factor means it's unlikely to be a massive mainstream hit, but it's made a good start.



    Posted via CB10
    kbz1960 likes this.
    09-28-14 07:42 AM
  4. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    There doubtless will be an all touch phone, for the reasons people are saying - it keeps everyone who wants one inside the tent. Just because the focus is on the enterprise sector doesn't mean they want to turn away everyone else.
    The enterprise sector, going in absolute and relative numbers, buys FAAAAR more touchscreen phones, than keyboard phones.

    It is such a false conclusion to equate business with keyboard, that I really don't get why people still have that engrained in their mind.

    Newsflash: The iPhone is the best selling phone in the business sector.
    BYOD is a movement of touchscreen phones.

    .
    It's actually a deliberate repeat of what they did accidentally some years back - targeting the corporate sector and hoping the rest follows. And corporates like touchscreen as well as keyboard phones, so it needs to be an option.
    1) If the first part is really their strategy, then we can bid farewell to BlackBerry right now already.

    The business sector and user has changed.
    He/she either has 2 devices anyhow (yeah, that has always been the same) or she/he has one device that covers the personal and business aspect of their lives.

    Since BlackBerry doesn't deliver on the second front, the strategy of hoping to get business users to promote BlackBerry so much (however that would work) that consumers want it, is a futile attempt of a really poor strategy.
    John Chen seems smarter than that.
    If you don't have a clear and understanding consumer strategy, which conveys some added value to the consumer, you might as well not try.

    2) Corporate users may like touchscreen and keyboards.
    But they vastly prefer touchscreens.


    The Z30 is fine for now (notwithstanding some don't want it) and a replacement will happen no doubt. The Passport is the halo product. Some will look at the Passport and buy the Z30 or the Z10 since its cheap. It's the whole point of having a range.

    Posted via CB10
    The Z30, relatively to where the market stands now, could as well be declared DOA tomorrow and....
    Nobody would care?

    That phone is yesterday's news, and pretty much everyone who wants one, already has one.
    The Z30 never was a flagship, and doesn't compete against an HTC One,
    iPhone 6, Sony Xperia Z2/3, Samsung S5 or LG G2/3.
    Those devices are worlds apart.

    Also, if I am willing to buy a 600$ device with rather current specs (Passport) you can bet that I won't buy a 200$ Z10 or the 350$ Z30.

    And yes, the whole point of having different products is to accommodate the needs of different users.
    But BlackBerry has no high-end flagship, no phone in the higher mid-range and has no entry level device (touchscreens ofc).

    So yeah if BlackBerry would actually have a real range, you would have a point.
    The Passport being the halo device, is also something I think is a rather strange thought.

    Posted via CB10
    sentimentGX4 likes this.
    09-28-14 07:45 AM
  5. Banco's Avatar
    The enterprise sector, going in absolute and relative numbers, buys FAAAAR more touchscreen phones, than keyboard phones.

    It is such a false conclusion to equate business with keyboard, that I really don't get why people still have that engrained in their mind.

    Newsflash: The iPhone is the best selling phone in the business sector.
    BYOD is a movement of touchscreen phones.



    1) If the first part is really their strategy, then we can bid farewell to BlackBerry right now already.

    The business sector and user has changed.
    He/she either has 2 devices anyhow (yeah, that has always been the same) or she/he has one device that covers the personal and business aspect of their lives.

    Since BlackBerry doesn't deliver on the second front, the strategy of hoping to get business users to promote BlackBerry so much (however that would work) that consumers want it, is a futile attempt of a really poor strategy.
    John Chen seems smarter than that.
    If you don't have a clear and understanding consumer strategy, which conveys some added value to the consumer, you might as well not try.

    2) Corporate users may like touchscreen and keyboards.
    But they vastly prefer touchscreens.



    The Z30, relatively to where the market stands now, could as well be declared DOA tomorrow and....
    Nobody would care?

    That phone is yesterday's news, and pretty much everyone who wants one, already has one.
    The Z30 never was a flagship, and doesn't compete against an HTC One,
    iPhone 6, Sony Xperia Z2/3, Samsung S5 or LG G2/3.
    Those devices are worlds apart.

    Also, if I am willing to buy a 600$ device with rather current specs (Passport) you can bet that I won't buy a 200$ Z10 or the 350$ Z30.

    And yes, the whole point of having different products is to accommodate the needs of different users.
    But BlackBerry has no high-end flagship, no phone in the higher mid-range and has no entry level device (touchscreens ofc).

    So yeah if BlackBerry would actually have a real range, you would have a point.
    The Passport being the halo device, is also something I think is a rather strange thought.

    Posted via CB10
    Basically....so what? they are where they are. You can whinge all you like about where they should have been, but it's pretty pointless.

    It's about moving forward from the current position, nothing else.

    And yes, the Passport IS a halo device for BlackBerry.

    Posted via CB10
    gfondeur likes this.
    09-28-14 07:48 AM
  6. Emaderton3's Avatar
    So until the passport bb didn't make a phone any of those people wanted? Interesting.

    Passport being sold out is good. But they didn't make many and let's see if it's initial bb fans buying and things will tapper way off or if interest continues.
    We will have to see the numbers. Many of the new phones that were released "sold out" but numbers were never provided. I still see no marketing in the United States. And every article I read on the Passport has comments on the bottom saying how "I used to have a BlackBerry but it always froze and needed battery pulls." it still seems the general perception is historically on the pre-BB10 days.

    Posted via CB10
    kbz1960 likes this.
    09-28-14 07:49 AM
  7. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Passports are sold out across Canada, on Amazon and BlackBerry. I don't think that 99.5% of the market wants touchscreen phones, the OP and other TS fans are projecting their own preferences onto the entire market.

    A lot of professionals are tired of endless editing of emails or appearing as semi-literate imbeciles through their writing. It's just that BlackBerry hadn't released a kb phone that was worth switching to - until now.

    Posted via CB10
    I think you don't understand where the 0.5% come from.

    We look at BlackBerry's marketshare last year. Around 1.5%. We know that BBOS outsold BB10 3 to 1.
    1% is therefore BBOS.

    BBOS has mostly been used on keyboard devices and because I don't want to do the math, we assume that all of those have been keyboard phones.
    So 1% last year, were physical keyboard phones.

    The market this year will be about twice as large as last year, but BBOS sells less at the same time.
    We therefore assume a migration of keyboard users to BB10, if the keyboard itself is actually so important.

    You followed me until here? Great.
    So, BlackBerry will have a marketshare of about 0.8% at the end of the year, and AT best, the keyboard phone will have a part of 0.5% of the market.

    Or in other words:
    99,5% (at least) of smartphones sold this year, will be touchscreen devices.

    Your second paragraph is you projecting your preferences onto the market
    There are NO indicators that people don't like their touchscreens anymore.
    Never, in the history of humanity, have there been more touchscreen smartphones around.

    And never have there been less keyboard phones sold (at least relatively. I would have to look it up in terms of absolute numbers).

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 09-28-14 at 08:20 AM.
    09-28-14 08:03 AM
  8. z10Jobe's Avatar
    A new touch screen will be coming. BlackBerry is not a huge company like apple/lg/sony/samsung and can pump out a new flagship every 6 months. So far this year we have seen z3, passport, and q20 classic coming. 3 phones in one year.

    As I write this flicking words up on my z10 screen, I can't imagine any flagship from the aforementioned (aforementioned was predicted right after the a..... cool) apple/lg/sony/samsung doing a better or faster job than a $200 z10.

    Also I don't think that the Ferrari analogy was intended to bring cost in the debate, but was merely intended to show you could survive on low volumes.

    Posted via CB10
    09-28-14 08:06 AM
  9. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Basically....so what? they are where they are. You can whinge all you like about where they should have been, but it's pretty pointless.

    It's about moving forward from the current position, nothing else.

    And yes, the Passport IS a halo device for BlackBerry.

    Posted via CB10
    For me, what you said in your previous post is just wrong, so I corrected those parts (which was probably the whole post).

    And no, the Passport definitely isn't a halo device.
    It's a high-end keyboard phone. Not a lot more and not a lot less.

    Also I don't think that the Ferrari analogy was intended to bring cost in the debate, but was merely intended to show you could survive on low volumes.

    Posted via CB10
    But...
    They wouldn't survive with those volumes, without their pricing.
    That's the point here.

    Ferrari sells "so many" cars, because of their pricing strategy. Because not everyone can afford a Ferrari.
    It's only natural to sell less cars for 200000$ than for 20000$.

    But everyone can afford a BlackBerry.
    "Nobody" buys a BlackBerry though.
    The analogy is just bad, wrong and whatnot. There is honestly no point in defending bad car analogies....


    Posted via CB10
    09-28-14 08:12 AM
  10. kbz1960's Avatar
    A new touch screen will be coming. BlackBerry is not a huge company like apple/lg/sony/samsung and can pump out a new flagship every 6 months. So far this year we have seen z3, passport, and q20 classic coming. 3 phones in one year.

    As I write this flicking words up on my z10 screen, I can't imagine any flagship from the aforementioned (aforementioned was predicted right after the a..... cool) apple/lg/sony/samsung doing a better or faster job than a $200 z10.

    Also I don't think that the Ferrari analogy was intended to bring cost in the debate, but was merely intended to show you could survive on low volumes.

    Posted via CB10
    You can survive on low volume if there is enough profit and have other things selling well. I think those cars survive because the mfg has other items that sell well.
    09-28-14 08:15 AM
  11. Banco's Avatar
    For me, what you said in your previous post is just wrong, so I corrected those parts (which was probably the whole post).

    And no, the Passport definitely isn't a halo device.
    It's a high-end keyboard phone. Not a lot more and not a lot less.



    Posted via CB10
    And for me your correction was completely wrong. So there we are, opinion is not fact and no "correction" is valid.

    The Passport has gained interest in the product and thus the product range. The strong initial sales will have a beneficial effect on the rest of the line up for those for whom the form factor is too much.
    09-28-14 08:20 AM
  12. Emaderton3's Avatar
    You can survive on low volume if there is enough profit and have other things selling well. I think those cars survive because the mfg has other items that sell well.
    Thanks, that is all I meant.

    And so will BlackBerry. BES for example. Other QNX based products.

    Posted via CB10
    09-28-14 08:21 AM
  13. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Thanks, that is all I meant.

    And so will BlackBerry. BES for example. Other QNX based products.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree with that part.
    It is possible.

    But this means that the phones will become an afterthought that has to get cross subsidised (in terms of opportunity costs. The division could be in the blacks, but BlackBerry could make even more money through ditching the phone division).

    So there will come the point where stakeholders will obviously demand the "why?".
    Why should we even bother with phones, if they do not enhance the profit in the way they should do?

    We aren't at that point for now, but if the handset division doesn't start to show some healthy signs of growth, the point will come.

    Posted via CB10
    09-28-14 08:29 AM
  14. newfie1974's Avatar
    I'm still very happy with my Z30. Doesn't feel old to me. Now with 10.3.1 coming.. still lots of life in my Z30.
    09-28-14 08:29 AM
  15. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    And for me your correction was completely wrong. So there we are, opinion is not fact and no "correction" is valid.
    I can prove and backup at least 3/4 of what I said with empirical data.
    Which means that I entered the territory of facts, for at least 3/4 of the things I said in the post we now talk about.

    Fact>Opinion
    Therefore yes, my correction is valid.

    (at least when you talk about market preferences, without knowing what you talk about. The discussion about the Passport being a halo device might be worthwhile though. The rest was just wrong. Factually wrong)

    The Passport has gained interest in the product and thus the product range. The strong initial sales will have a beneficial effect on the rest of the line up for those for whom the form factor is too much.
    "The Passport has gained interested in the product and thus the product range."

    I thought the Passport is the product, but never mind that.
    Just explain me which product you mean.
    Because that the interest for the Passport means that people are interested in the Passport is kind of... a given?

    The initial sales mean exactly nothing for the rest of the current product range.
    If someone wants a high-end phone for 600$, he doesn't want a 200$ Z10.

    Your reasoning makes no sense in that regard.
    However, if you simply mean publicity, then yes, that the Passport is sold out isn't exactly bad.

    But if you simply mean some good press, then it would be beneficial if you say that clearly.

    Posted via CB10
    09-28-14 08:40 AM
  16. Playbook007's Avatar
    1) Z30 runs like a top end device today, I don't care if it was launched in 1940. 10.3 will advance it forward, no need to buy "new device" anytime soon.

    2) The projected failed Passport by the media and a lot of you here sold 200 000 units in 2 days from 2 outlets alone. That is $120 000 000.00 US retail. It is sold out everywhere.

    3) The Passport is not just another PKB! It's also touch sensitive! You cannot say "people don't want ". This is revolutionary, and is patented. So hang on folks....it could be very interesting.

    4) Blend will turn heads not only in Enterprise, but definitely in the consumer end. I can have a BlackBerry phone, Android, ipad tablets, Pc or Mac and work seamlessly. My tablet can give me all the android or Apple apps, my BlackBerry phone gives me BBW and Amazon Android Apps. I am not ecosystem limited.

    4) Wake up folks. BlackBerry is going to be big once again!

    Posted via CB10
    wincyUt likes this.
    09-28-14 08:48 AM
  17. Emaderton3's Avatar
    I agree with that part.
    It is possible.

    But this means that the phones will become an afterthought that has to get cross subsidised (in terms of opportunity costs. The division could be in the blacks, but BlackBerry could make even more money through ditching the phone division).

    So there will come the point where stakeholders will obviously demand the "why?".
    Why should we even bother with phones, if they do not enhance the profit in the way they should do?

    We aren't at that point for now, but if the handset division doesn't start to show some healthy signs of growth, the point will come.

    Posted via CB10
    That's exactly what I was alluding to before. Phones could just end up being a casualty of other produucts' successes or they will keep supplying a niche market.

    Posted via CB10
    09-28-14 08:54 AM
  18. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    1) Z30 runs like a top end device today, I don't care if it was launched in 1940. 10.3 will advance it forward, no need to buy "new device" anytime soon.

    2) The projected failed Passport by the media and a lot of you here sold 200 000 units in 2 days from 2 outlets alone. That is $120 000 000.00 US retail. It is sold out everywhere.

    3) The Passport is not just another PKB! It's also touch sensitive! You cannot say "people don't want ". This is revolutionary, and is patented. So hang on folks....it could be very interesting.

    4) Blend will turn heads not only in Enterprise, but definitely in the consumer end. I can have a BlackBerry phone, Android, ipad tablets, Pc or Mac and work seamlessly. My tablet can give me all the android or Apple apps, my BlackBerry phone gives me BBW and Amazon Android Apps. I am not ecosystem limited.

    4) Wake up folks. BlackBerry is going to be big once again!

    Posted via CB10
    You sound like the poor version of Tim Cook :S

    How many devices did Apple sell when the iPhone 6 launched again?

    The Passport is revolutionary and patented!!!!!
    Ok, so... Maybe I fail to see the "why", but what is exactly revolutionary about that device?
    Trackpads? Nothing new. Keyboards? Nothing new. Bigger screens? Nothing new...
    And why the hell is it better because it got patented?

    Don't Google and Apple offer an equivalent to Blend as well? (spoiler: one does, one will)

    Don't BBW and the Amazon App Store together offer far less apps than Google Play or the App Store alone?

    Well, if YOU say that BlackBerry makes its comeback, who am I to doubt that?!
    (actually, I do see a comeback in the SaaS sector. The phone sector... With their current strategy not so much)

    Posted via CB10
    BB_Junky likes this.
    09-28-14 08:56 AM
  19. Banco's Avatar
    I can prove and backup at least 3/4 of what I said with empirical data.
    Which means that I entered the territory of facts, for at least 3/4 of the things I said in the post we now talk about.

    Fact>Opinion
    Therefore yes, my correction is valid.

    (at least when you talk about market preferences, without knowing what you talk about. The discussion about the Passport being a halo device might be worthwhile though. The rest was just wrong. Factually wrong)



    "The Passport has gained interested in the product and thus the product range."

    I thought the Passport is the product, but never mind that.
    Just explain me which product you mean.
    Because that the interest for the Passport means that people are interested in the Passport is kind of... a given?

    The initial sales mean exactly nothing for the rest of the current product range.
    If someone wants a high-end phone for 600$, he doesn't want a 200$ Z10.

    Your reasoning makes no sense in that regard.
    However, if you simply mean publicity, then yes, that the Passport is sold out isn't exactly bad.

    But if you simply mean some good press, then it would be beneficial if you say that clearly.

    Posted via CB10
    No, you pointed to various things which might be true but had zero relevance to the point I was making, and then assumed that because you said it, your conclusions were fact. It doesn't become so just because you say so.

    You need to grasp that other opinions are valid too. By all means disagree with me. Don't tell me you are correcting anything, because you aren't.

    Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
    09-28-14 09:03 AM
  20. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    No, you pointed to various things which might be true but had zero relevance to the point I was making, and then assumed that because you said it, your conclusions were fact. It doesn't become so just because you say so.

    You need to grasp that other opinions are valid too. By all means disagree with me. Don't tell me you are correcting anything, because you aren't.

    Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
    Oh no, it's not correct because I said it, not at all!
    It's correct because it's factually correct.

    Just because the focus is on the enterprise sector doesn't mean they want to turn away everyone else.
    Factually, a focus on the enterprise does not equal a focus on the keyboard.
    The vast majority of business devices are touchscreen phones.

    So your sentence doesn't really make sense, as long as you agree with the facts.

    It's actually a deliberate repeat of what they did accidentally some years back - targeting the corporate sector and hoping the rest follows.
    Here, we know that the corporate user has changed.
    Factually, most corporate users don't have a keyboard phone anymore if they use only 1 phone.
    And if they use 2 phones, they won't be using the BlackBerry in the free time.

    You don't seem to understand that the positions have been reversed nowadays.
    Back in the day when BlackBerry was actually still important (around 2005) the business sector influenced what smartphone consumer bought.
    Today consumers influence what phone a business buys.

    Which is actually the natural evolution of the matter, because corporate users are consumers as well.

    Factually, I therefore say that the strategy would be incredibly wrong, because the market doesn't work like that anymore.

    And corporates like touchscreen as well as keyboard phones, so it needs to be an option.
    Factually, there are far more touchscreen phones in the corporate sector than keyboard phones.

    Having said that:
    Maybe I really miss your point?
    If your point isn't to paint a picture where not launching a touchscreen flagship this year, is a brilliant idea, then I probably missed your point.

    But thank you!
    I wish you a wonderful weekend as well!

    Posted via CB10
    09-28-14 09:22 AM
  21. TGR1's Avatar
    You sound like the poor version of Tim Cook :S

    How many devices did Apple sell when the iPhone 6 launched again?

    The Passport is revolutionary and patented!!!!!
    Ok, so... Maybe I fail to see the "why", but what is exactly revolutionary about that device?
    Trackpads? Nothing new. Keyboards? Nothing new. Bigger screens? Nothing new...
    And why the hell is it better because it got patented?

    Don't Google and Apple offer an equivalent to Blend as well? (spoiler: one does, one will)

    Don't BBW and the Amazon App Store together offer far less apps than Google Play or the App Store alone?

    Well, if YOU say that BlackBerry makes its comeback, who am I to doubt that?!
    (actually, I do see a comeback in the SaaS sector. The phone sector... With their current strategy not so much)

    Posted via CB10
    If I understand from the earnings report, the software and services sector only accounted for ~8% of total revenue. While I agree with BBRY heading in that direction, that's a substantial hill to climb, bigger than I had expected.
    09-28-14 09:43 AM
  22. Banco's Avatar
    Oh no, it's not correct because I said it, not at all!
    It's correct because it's factually correct.



    Factually, a focus on the enterprise does not equal a focus on the keyboard.
    The vast majority of business devices are touchscreen phones.

    So your sentence doesn't really make sense, as long as you agree with the facts.



    Here, we know that the corporate user has changed.
    Factually, most corporate users don't have a keyboard phone anymore if they use only 1 phone.
    And if they use 2 phones, they won't be using the BlackBerry in the free time.

    You don't seem to understand that the positions have been reversed nowadays.
    Back in the day when BlackBerry was actually still important (around 2005) the business sector influenced what smartphone consumer bought.
    Today consumers influence what phone a business buys.

    Which is actually the natural evolution of the matter, because corporate users are consumers as well.

    Factually, I therefore say that the strategy would be incredibly wrong, because the market doesn't work like that anymore.



    Factually, there are far more touchscreen phones in the corporate sector than keyboard phones.

    Having said that:
    Maybe I really miss your point?
    If your point isn't to paint a picture where not launching a touchscreen flagship this year, is a brilliant idea, then I probably missed your point.

    But thank you!
    I wish you a wonderful weekend as well!

    Posted via CB10
    Point 1: I never said touchscreen phones weren't by far the majority. Your argument is a straw man.

    Point 2: I never said things weren't completely different now, I said that's what they seem to be attempting. Your argument is a straw man.

    But you carry on arguing things I didn't say if it makes you feel better.
    09-28-14 09:55 AM
  23. desporterizer's Avatar
    The absolute ideal would be an all touch device with a pk cousin that used the same basic hardware apart from display/keyboard. Build it with devastating specs (even if it doesn't need it) and include a ios/android emulator so it can run every stinking/idiotic app under the sun. That ought to keep everybody happy and lining up in droves. Introduce a new but basically unchanged other than cosmetics model even six months with more mega something or other and BlackBerry would make a fortune.

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX and tanzarian like this.
    09-28-14 09:56 AM
  24. lnichols's Avatar
    Yeah, another full touch device, because the Z10 and Z30 really sold so well!


    I hope BlackBerry brings something for the all touch lovers, but really, why would they be in any hurry to? It's not like they did well. The Z10 was cause for a huge write down and loss for the company, and it soured relations with carriers who were then wary to carry the Z30. I owned a Z10 and have a Z30 and I think they're great, but don't expect BlackBerry to be in any hurry. The app situation hasn't really improved, so it's not like consumers will give BlackBerry a look. Sure there are some more in the Amazon App Store, but BlackBerry will likely never have the native apps that most full touch using consumers want.

    If they did come out with a Z50 or something, I'd expect it to be geared towards business users again, on sale for full retail price on Shop BlackBerry and through a few carriers.

    I feel bad for the touchscreen users who choose BlackBerry... you have nice devices and can see BlackBerry can compete in terms of hardware and software, but because the majority of users rejected those devices, you're sort of punished and have to wait for BlackBerry to see if that's really a road they want to go down again.

    Posted via CB10
    Alright, how many Q10 and Q5 sold compared to the Z10 and Z30 and Z3? You must have the figures to show if you are making such statements.

    Posted with a BlackBerry Z10
    09-28-14 10:11 AM
  25. Jaiden's Avatar
    Why does one need to upgrade and get a new phone every year or two anyway? Why not just keep using your Z10?

    Posted via CB10
    Agreed. If the Z10 is able run future OS upgrades, why switch hardware?

    Posted via CB10
    09-28-14 10:23 AM
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