[Troy Tiscareno]

Well, yes. GM is at least staying in the automobile game, while BB has ceded the field and is now only peripherally involved via providing some customizations to stock Android to their licensees. BB really has no (or, at most, very limited) input on the hardware, pricing, or what extra software is bundled by the licensees, and they certainly have no plans or desire to re-enter the smartphone market themselves.

[idssteve]

I, myself, would NEVER advocate that ANY organization should suffer red ink on my behalf. That's not the point of my lamentations. My point is that there truly has been tangible functionality lost to history. Tangible functionality that might yet prove profitably valuable at some future for someone. Efficiently coordinating GM's vast & varied global resources into an exciting EV future, for example, might possibly happen a little earlier if more efficiently collaborative global communications can be leveraged at certain stages. ??

[idssteve]

Interesting to ponder that by some counts, in 1969, Chevrolet division alone out grossed the nation of Japan. The fact that GM is still clinging to life might say as much about where they came from as where they're headed? imo. Read John Delorean "On a Clear Day" and compare that prophecy with "Loosing the Signal". Frighteningly analogous, imo. Lol.

I knew folks with Vega "mosquito foggers". The Pete Estes creation that some of us joked "made Toyota". Lol. A fiasco that seems far too analogous to RIM's Storm experience. Imo. Like RIM, the once dominant GM has suffered an impressive repertoire of self inflicted fiasco's. Lol. Never sure how much personal info to divulge in forums. ?? My father resigned Detroit Diesel (then part of GM) over their ill fated decision to push the "half baked" 92 series design into premature production. Back in the early 70s. He participated in the two original "concept test" prototypes which were simply bored out 71 series blocks. The resulting "wet liner" modification lost critical structural support for the fire deck that had been afforded by the 71's dry liner cylinder config. That prototype concept test block was understood to be structurally weak for proto-convenience. Production versions needed proper block re-design. It finally partly received some upgrades with the "Silver 92" circa 79. Too late, too little. GM decision makers originally pushed the prototype design into premature production. Including an idiotic process for boring the wet liner counter bores in a separate set-up from the main cylinder bore, etc, etc... That un-square iron-to-iron liner lip bore was now tasked to seal coolant from oil sump, etc, etc. After "heated discussion", dad ultimately pointed to the circular arrows of a DDA clock hanging on the meeting room wall and told a team of "suits" that "those arrows represent you fools chasing your a*s...". Lol. Before predicting they'd be out of business within a decade. And before walking out. GM sold DD to Penske in 80s. He wasn't far off. DD once dominated mid 70s OTR engine market. 92 series failures drove DD to single digit market share by 1980. Glycol contaminated lube oil does hideous things to bearing Babbitt. Lol. Since then, GM has spun off EMD (another Kettering creation) and other well known divisions. Lol. Smoke & seismic disturbance have surely emanated from tombs of both Sloan and Kettering? Lol.

Comparisons between GM & RIM seem inescapable. Imo. Now, like RIM did to BBOS before BB10 was ready, GM seems in process to shutter existing platforms, along with development talent, BEFORE replacement platforms are maturely established? ?? Deja Vu all over again? Lol. ?? Good luck. As RIM found, when you bet the bank on a bird that's not even in the bush, sometimes you lose the bet. And the bank. And "the signal"? Lol. Might "Government Motors" be counting on some "bottomless bank bailout" somewhere? Lol.

Ok, back toward battery configuration topic, I just don't see consumers-in-mass eagerly accepting a transportation solution that provides less than 300 miles range and demands much more than 3 minutes to "refuel". Even Prius' Atkinson cycle IC marvel of efficiency would burn about 6 gallons of quickly replenished liquid fuel in that 300 mile journey. Using GGE of 33.4kWh/gal means about 200kWh of electric energy equivalent to that 6 gallons. That 200kWh would need to be replenished within a "consumer acceptable" 3 minute period. The equivalent of 4000kW for 3 minutes. Even if some battery chemistry could accept the 4 MEGawatt (4000 KW) (4,000,000W) charge rate for 3 minutes, what sort of supply infrastructure would be demanded? A locomotive sized gen-set? Lol. Perhaps a 40' container of supercaps?? Lol.

Even at 100% charge efficiency, a 500v EV battery would demand 8000AMPS for that 3 minute, 4000kW, 200kWh charge. What sort of conductor size would be demanded? Lol. Who's going to lift that conductor to plug it in? What impact on electronics and even cardiological pace makers would need to be considered for anyone or thing near by that sort of current flow? Lol. And that's just for a diminutive Prius! Lol.

Likewise, swapping in a 5000mAh battery restores my 9900 from 0 to 100% charge in under 3 minutes, including re-boot. The battery itself can charge at comfortable rate (5hrs @ 1A) in a dedicated charger. Charging that 5Ah beast in 3 minutes would demand 100A for that 3min! Charging a K2's 4000mAh battery in 3 minutes, for example, would demand 80 amps for 3 minutes. Somewhat beyond USB capacity. Lol.

With handsets AND EV's, the only hope I see of replenishing such energy densities approaching within a several minute wait time, is with batt swaps. Well proven with Bolds & other cordless power tools. Lol. Pretty significant infrastructure development challenges for EV's.

Of course consumers-in-mass might be "trained" to accept more wait time...? A job for Steve Jobs? Lol. AND, of course, the downtime might prove grudgingly tolerable to even personality types like mine... IF our handsets can continue to keep us productively collaborating while waiting for embedded battery car to restore charge. Lol.

One thing for certain. My posts WILL get shorter once this 9930 dies. Some can't wait, I'm sure. Lol. Pretty safe bet it won't be battery failure that does it in tho.

[Troy Tiscareno]

The thing is: change is happening rapidly. What was true for a long time is no longer true.

Who would have predicted Tesla's success? Probably many people here aren't even aware that Tesla has recently been in the Top 3 in car model sales and in revenue.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/03...ng-car-in-usa/
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/24...amrys-revenue/

While getting people to live with a 100-120 mile range limitation was a deal-breaker for all but the most pro-EV niche, a 300+ mile range limitation has proven to be widely acceptable. And that number will improve over the next decade as battery tech, charging tech, and other things improve (it's amazing what billions of dollars of R&D can do!).

I'm not suggesting that there aren't people who NEED to be able to refuel in 3 minutes after a 300 mile trip - there will be a need for such vehicles for a long time - but I think that a decade from now, THAT is going to be the niche, not the mainstream. OTR trucks and a relative handful of cars will meet that need, and most of the rest of us will be buying EVs and will be perfectly happy with them 360 days a year - and may need to rent a gasoline car that other week, or use some form of public transportation (plane or train).

EVs with a 300+ mile range have changed the game, and are causing a seismic shift in car buying, and thus in car manufacturing. Tons of IC engine fans will lament their passage, but most new cars will be EVs 10 years from now - and a lot of them will at the very least have a self-driving mode, if not full-time self-driving.

The same seismic shift has happened with smartphones. Almost no one wants tiny devices with tiny screens anymore. People want a big screen, which means a big phone with room for a big internal battery, which means little need or desire for a removable battery from virtually anyone. Given that most phones today have no problem getting through a full day on a charge, plus fast-charging and portable battery banks, battery anxiety has largely disappeared, while just 3-4 years ago, it was a top concern. Don't expect removable batteries to return anytime soon.

[idssteve]

If, as OP inquired, "green" is to someday represent anything resembling elevated priority, things like rapid charging, Qi, etc, etc might ultimately prove incompatible to those motives. Or at least invite deeper scrutiny before too far down a potentially counter productive path. ?

That might seem of inconsequential concern for individual mobile handset users but the macro implications of charging billions of higher capacity handset (& EV & even aircraft!!) batteries at faster rates shouldn't be discounted out of hand. Pun intended. Lol. Filling a bigger bucket, faster, inevitably takes a bigger hose! Lol.

US electric utility industry already strains in transition from fossil fired generation to renewables. Transitions of such scale frequently demand decades to fruition, in that industry. Especially while preserving acceptable system reliability & rate structures. Compounding that strain with added loading into faster battery charging might possibly divert resources from ongoing renewables transitions? I am pretty well immersed in electric utility industry and can authoritatively opine that planning to accommodate expansion in support of EV (and other) "seismic shifts" really isn't taking place with adequate urgency, in that industry. imo.

As a simplistic sanity check of the impending challenge, consider implications for 100% ultimate transition from gasoline to EV, for example. US alone uses about 15,000,000 gal of gasoline each hour! Using a GGE of 33.4kWh/gal (an "accepted" number I personally question but useful enough for sanity check), about 500,000,000kW of electricity would be needed to displace those 15mega gallons of gasoline for that same single hour. That's 500,000 megawatts each hr! Hoover dam can generate 2000 megawatts. US utilities will need to add the equivalent of 250 Hoover dams to fully replace gasoline, in some 100% EV future. Not impossible but no small challenge. Very rough "sanity check" #'s, of course.


That's assuming re-charge of those batteries happens at the same rate as discharge. IOW, 6hrs to recharge after a 6hr, 300 mile, journey. A use case of somewhat limited versatility, at best. Imo. Re-filling that 6hr bucket in a single, more user friendly, hour will demand a hose capable of supplying 6 times that bucket's capacity per hr! 6X 250 = 1500 Hoover Dams worth of potential hourly capacity demand! And THAT assumes that a one hour re-charge, every 6 hrs, proves user tolerable. ??

Generating that additional energy with zero fuel cost green wind & solar is one thing. Generating that capacity on a becalmed night also contributes significant challenge. Especially if sleeping users expect their EV, handset, etc batteries to recharge overnight while solar generation is inevitably unavailable. What fills that capacity gap? Coal?? Lol.

Once generated, that capacity must be transmitted and distributed to user batteries at "filling" stations, at home, etc. Upgrading utility transmission, distribution, commercial & residential services, etc to accommodate that additional 1500 Hoover Dams worth of 6X capacity might distract utility resources enough to ultimately delay renewables implementation? ??

Tesla's Supercharge & Megacharge stations, as example, employ impressively sophisticated charging strategies in effort to accommodate electrical service infrastructure limits. Strategies that might, dependent on various supply side conditions, prolong battery re-charge time regardless of battery chemistry. I wouldn't be privileged to any of GM's plans but sure hope they're planning comprehensively, also?

User stops at liquid fuel stations currently average about 10 minutes total. Including about 2-3 minutes for actual fluid fuel transfer. Imagine 6X service station congestion if each traveler loiters an hour at each stop? Imagine user health implications of "candy & cola" consumed during that hour of impatient loitering? Lol. A potentially profitable "marketable moment", at least. Hehe.

IF (HUGE IF! Lol), however, EV industry could somehow agree to standardize on a robotically swapped battery pack exchange program, "fuel" stops might be greatly expedited. AND existing electrical distribution infrastructure design might be spared EV charging stress by permitting "slow charge" of those swappable EV batteries nearer the generating sources... "Slow charge" of those swappable EV batteries WHILE those daylight and/or wind fired sources are available. ???

I can visualize an automated robotic swap station where the battery is swapped from trap door under vehicle in seconds while occupants remain seated! Maybe while stopped at Sonic? Haha.

Charging bigger batteries, slower, while better coordinating with renewable source availability, is where "user removable batteries" might ultimately prove most "green"? Lol. Imo. Fwiw.

[Troy Tiscareno]

The "surge in demand" problem will be solved by capacitors of some type (charging comparatively slowly but discharging more quickly) and most people will get the majority of their charging done at home, at restaurants (most McDonald's already have chargers at every store), shopping malls, and, yes, some at dedicated stations, but you won't have the congestion issues because "gas stations" won't have the same monopoly on the "fuel" as is true now.

Having said that, I think that commercial vehicles will likely end up with standardized, quick-changeable batteries. Big-rigs, tractors, and medium-duty trucks that need to work 12+ hours at a time will need this capability, and I have no doubt that we'll see it. I think it's less likely that we'll see it for most personal vehicles (there may end up being a special class of vehicles for the folks who need this), because most people will do just fine with a 300+ mile range without needing fast refueling - they'll charge at home and at work if necessary.

[sclikes]

User Removable battery Good for phones in the case of overheating and starting problems resolve time.

[Rootbrian]

Eh, if the device isn't crammed together with adhesive, it would be very easy to disassemble and replace the sealed battery. If anyone ever thought of that. The keyone and key2 both aren't as hard to pry open due to the adhesives on the backing. Hahaha. Plus, why not swap with with a larger tablet sized battery too? they make 4400+ mAh batteries for those.

Typed on my BlackBerry passport, via freedom mobile DC-HSPA+/LTE