11-09-19 06:43 PM
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  1. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    We've heard these same arguments for a decade already. The fact is that all manufacturers (except Apple) formerly offered PKB phones, and low sales caused those manufacturers to discontinue them. If PKBs were important, this should have driven users to BB-branded PKBs - in significant numbers, despite any other limitations - but it didn't. This tells the manufacturers that even most PKB users value other things ahead of the PKB and won't switch brands to keep the PKB.

    And here's the thing: BB's sales numbers of PKB phones have been declining in huge numbers year after year, as more and more people move to all-touch phones - regardless of "why". This year, BB-branded PKBs will be around 100k devices worldwide, which is practically ALL of the PKB smartphones worldwide. Big manufacturers like LG and Samsung and Oppo and Nokia DO NOT CARE about a market of 100k devices - especially knowing that if they don't make a PKB phone, most of those users will probably end up with one of their all-touch phones anyway. If they do nothing, they still win. It's much the same argument as with BB10 - developers didn't need to support it, because if it failed, users would still end up using their apps on iOS or Android anyway.

    If the PKB market was 20M users (meaning: 10M annual device sales, with a 2-year turnover), then it would be big enough to cater to - but it hasn't been that big since 2011. The only reason they've lasted this long is because BB needed SOMETHING unique to justify being in the market, but sales have still declined by 50% a year annually since 2012. That's 7 straight years of major decline. The market has left the PKB behind - it's really that simple.
    John Albert likes this.
    11-07-19 01:50 PM
  2. Thud Hardsmack's Avatar
    Definitely not my experience from the S7 and S9 on T-Mobile. OS version with the S7 came @ a month after Samsung refined and released. Same on my S9 to One UI and from Oreo to Pie. My security updates usually come a month after as my S9 received October '19 patch last Saturday.

    Samsung and T-Mobile at least have really stepped up their game in regards to updates. And importantly they have been stable.

    I know Pixel gets things quicker but damn if they are not glitchy. Same could be said for Apple lately. We have a 6th gen iPad and my daughter has an XR. OS 13 has not been very smooth 13.3 beta was just pushed (3 updates in @ a month)
    Samsung at least has definitely gotten better at releasing and getting carriers to release updates, but it's hit or miss, and a lot of miss, with anyone else with carrier-branded offerings.
    11-07-19 02:12 PM
  3. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I have to disagree here. TCL and Blackberry Mobile, like Blackberry Ltd prior, completely botched and f'd up the KeyOne launch and then completely F'd all the Sprint and Verizon users with no OS update. Even your own AT&T variant does not offer the Wi-Fi calling you want and or need. Its pathetic honestly. I get more functionality from my unlocked Black Edition KeyOne on T-Mobile who did not even carry the device. I don't know why so many cannot see how and why the lack of support to Android offerings has done such detrimental damage to the Blackberry brand (BlackBerry ltd and Blackberry Mobile). Couple that with no official offerings of the Key2 for the much wanted "trade ins" and BOGO deals carriers here in the US do for Galaxy and iPhone users and you can go back to my original post. If you buy or get a Galaxy or iPhone flagship a consumer will NEVER have to pay full price again for said new flagship. I traded in my S7 for my S9 and received 360 dollar credit toward the S9. That made the decision a "no brainer". It makes a flagship less than a mid tiered device or a " unlocked" phone. I do agree that the carriers here in the US have successfully F'd all of those using a unlocked except maybe T-Mobile. With Digits I believe I garner more capability with my BE KeyOne than an AT&T, Sprint or Verizon user.

    If a Key type device was made by Apple or Samsung 1000 percent it's adoption and sales would exceed anything TCL has attempted. They have the distribution and sales channels and MOST importantly the SUPPORT that users want and need as they hold onto devices longer. In addition users would know the device would maintain value because of the support and brand.

    Have to hand it to Apple and Samsung- they have "won" here in the US for Flagship type devices like iOS and Android. Its not even arguable.
    Not sure where to start... but I’ll try

    As conite stated all the OS updates, are carrier decisions on CDMA since device has to be provisioned and with low sales nobody is going to eat the cost on either side. I suspect this is how a VZW model got produced and then I suspect VZW exercised some exit clause but TCL had the model certified.

    As far as WFC on AT&T, that’s definitely carrier since they’re my carrier and told me the device they sold me for carrier use isn’t supported because that’s limited to premium flagship hardware of their choosing.

    Interestingly, T-Mobile doesn’t support WFC on my BE KEYone either. When I asked why it’s not supported, I got a very f’d up answer. In order for testing coverage, I opened up $3 prepaid account with 1 day 500 mb data for extra charge. Was told by store manager after unsuccessfully getting WFC operational that I needed higher plan. So I paid for one month prepaid unlimited for around $50-60 with taxes. Still WFC turned on but wouldn’t complete onto network. I asked the store manager who then wasn’t sure about factory unlocked support. I explained my friend bh7171 on CB had no problems getting WFC supported and told my friend must have postpaid service. I was then informed that I could open postpaid account. I explained that coverage was problem already so would they guarantee WFC on BE KEYone and was told it’s not on list of supported devices so couldn’t guarantee. Manager explained the supported list was all T-Mobile carrier locked hardware and factory unlocked of same devices. BE KEYone not on list so NO guarantee. I was done and $60 poorer for the experience.

    What I’ve learned is that AT&T supported all enhanced calling features except WFC on either device. T-MOBILE probably supports enhanced calling features including WFC on either device on postpaid accounts but no guarantee. Again these are carrier decisions not close to being within BBMo control since devices aren’t part of THE list.

    Unless any OEM that wants to be added to list, carrier offering and policies changed, writes a large enough check to each carrier, nothing is changing and not illegal. Possible if not done properly, writing the check would be illegal. The other brands face the same issues as the OS choices themselves. Carriers are happy to offer two proprietary and one licensed brand of Android/iOS hardware. The remaining secondary Android offerings just keep monopoly and oligopoly accusations just that and nothing else.

    As far as PKB by the OEM leaders, if truly worthwhile for new profits, they would already be sold. Unfortunately there’s no ADDITIONAL profit motive to cannibalize any specific OEM sales to cover the startup costs as BBMo/TCL found out with this endeavor.
    11-07-19 02:19 PM
  4. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Samsung at least has definitely gotten better at releasing and getting carriers to release updates, but it's hit or miss, and a lot of miss, with anyone else with carrier-branded offerings.
    I was pretty happy with updates on my S7 on Verizon. They might skip two months out of twelve, but that's reasonable to me. Not like Apple does monthly updates either...

    But if I went back to Android... I'd get a Pixel, you would be getting great hardware with the best Android update record.
    11-07-19 02:21 PM
  5. the_boon's Avatar
    Carrier "decisions" that have never been or would be made on a Samsung Galaxy Flagship or Apple iPhone.

    Again think of your Key2 with Amoled panel, stereo speakers, Samsung One UI (very refined and functional) Samsung camera(s) 3 OS versions guaranteed AND 4 years security patches (The 2016 Samsung S7 is still receiving quarterly patches). AND the additional value of knowing you have a path to trade in your device for the latest in 2-3 years if so desired. Lastly supported and available upon release from all major US carriers.

    That kind of hardware and software support would push a said Key type device demand through the roof no doubt.
    I don't think a well-made Samsung PKB device would sell "through the roof" however it should easily break even for them and wipe the floor with TCL's KEY line, commercially speaking.
    11-07-19 04:04 PM
  6. bh7171's Avatar
    Samsung at least has definitely gotten better at releasing and getting carriers to release updates, but it's hit or miss, and a lot of miss, with anyone else with carrier-branded offerings.
    Hence my OP for the market here in USA. LG,HTC,Nokia,Sony and Motorola all "desirable" all touch devices have and are experiencing sales declines here. It's all carriers and all Samsung and Apple. Even Pixel has screwed up. Their trade in values for the Pixel 4 on their older devices was abysmal. Apple's sales and Samsung's of new devices all declining. Without "deals" , "trade ins" and BOGO they would be materially more so. Those deals Apple and Samsung and the carriers offer keep them all afloat and the others sinking.. Like BlackBerry Mobile sales the LG's, HTC's, Sony, etc have zero carrier support.
    11-07-19 06:27 PM
  7. bh7171's Avatar
    We've heard these same arguments for a decade already. The fact is that all manufacturers (except Apple) formerly offered PKB phones, and low sales caused those manufacturers to discontinue them. If PKBs were important, this should have driven users to BB-branded PKBs - in significant numbers, despite any other limitations - but it didn't. This tells the manufacturers that even most PKB users value other things ahead of the PKB and won't switch brands to keep the PKB.

    And here's the thing: BB's sales numbers of PKB phones have been declining in huge numbers year after year, as more and more people move to all-touch phones - regardless of "why". This year, BB-branded PKBs will be around 100k devices worldwide, which is practically ALL of the PKB smartphones worldwide. Big manufacturers like LG and Samsung and Oppo and Nokia DO NOT CARE about a market of 100k devices - especially knowing that if they don't make a PKB phone, most of those users will probably end up with one of their all-touch phones anyway. If they do nothing, they still win. It's much the same argument as with BB10 - developers didn't need to support it, because if it failed, users would still end up using their apps on iOS or Android anyway.

    If the PKB market was 20M users (meaning: 10M annual device sales, with a 2-year turnover), then it would be big enough to cater to - but it hasn't been that big since 2011. The only reason they've lasted this long is because BB needed SOMETHING unique to justify being in the market, but sales have still declined by 50% a year annually since 2012. That's 7 straight years of major decline. The market has left the PKB behind - it's really that simple.
    The Key devices with all that a Blackberry PKB can offer with full Android was just released in '17. It has not been a decade. However the Key launch was borked, like all subsequent BlackBerry launches, carrier support and device support sucked and sales faltered. (Same for the much vaunted slabs of LG, HTC, Sony, Nokia, etc)
    11-07-19 06:30 PM
  8. bh7171's Avatar
    Not sure where to start... but I’ll try

    As conite stated all the OS updates, are carrier decisions on CDMA since device has to be provisioned and with low sales nobody is going to eat the cost on either side. I suspect this is how a VZW model got produced and then I suspect VZW exercised some exit clause but TCL had the model certified.

    As far as WFC on AT&T, that’s definitely carrier since they’re my carrier and told me the device they sold me for carrier use isn’t supported because that’s limited to premium flagship hardware of their choosing.

    Interestingly, T-Mobile doesn’t support WFC on my BE KEYone either. When I asked why it’s not supported, I got a very f’d up answer. In order for testing coverage, I opened up $3 prepaid account with 1 day 500 mb data for extra charge. Was told by store manager after unsuccessfully getting WFC operational that I needed higher plan. So I paid for one month prepaid unlimited for around $50-60 with taxes. Still WFC turned on but wouldn’t complete onto network. I asked the store manager who then wasn’t sure about factory unlocked support. I explained my friend bh7171 on CB had no problems getting WFC supported and told my friend must have postpaid service. I was then informed that I could open postpaid account. I explained that coverage was problem already so would they guarantee WFC on BE KEYone and was told it’s not on list of supported devices so couldn’t guarantee. Manager explained the supported list was all T-Mobile carrier locked hardware and factory unlocked of same devices. BE KEYone not on list so NO guarantee. I was done and $60 poorer for the experience.

    What I’ve learned is that AT&T supported all enhanced calling features except WFC on either device. T-MOBILE probably supports enhanced calling features including WFC on either device on postpaid accounts but no guarantee. Again these are carrier decisions not close to being within BBMo control since devices aren’t part of THE list.

    Unless any OEM that wants to be added to list, carrier offering and policies changed, writes a large enough check to each carrier, nothing is changing and not illegal. Possible if not done properly, writing the check would be illegal. The other brands face the same issues as the OS choices themselves. Carriers are happy to offer two proprietary and one licensed brand of Android/iOS hardware. The remaining secondary Android offerings just keep monopoly and oligopoly accusations just that and nothing else.

    As far as PKB by the OEM leaders, if truly worthwhile for new profits, they would already be sold. Unfortunately there’s no ADDITIONAL profit motive to cannibalize any specific OEM sales to cover the startup costs as BBMo/TCL found out with this endeavor.
    Postpaid account. 4 lines unlimited, Netflix for free, Mobile HotSpot and Digits (Wi-Fi calling and texting) all included for 160 flat- no taxes, etc. Even use Digits on my DTEK50. 👍😎
    11-07-19 06:33 PM
  9. bh7171's Avatar
    I was pretty happy with updates on my S7 on Verizon. They might skip two months out of twelve, but that's reasonable to me. Not like Apple does monthly updates either...

    But if I went back to Android... I'd get a Pixel, you would be getting great hardware with the best Android update record.
    And lots of "bugs" with early adoption of the "newest" OS on Pixel. Hit their forums up to see the issues pretty much all have had going back to the horrific 6P.
    11-07-19 06:35 PM
  10. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    The Key devices with all that a Blackberry PKB can offer with full Android was just released in '17. It has not been a decade. However the Key launch was borked, like all subsequent BlackBerry launches, carrier support and device support sucked and sales faltered. (Same for the much vaunted slabs of LG, HTC, Sony, Nokia, etc)
    Yes, but overall demand for PKB phones has been steadily falling for a decade. And if PKBs were so desired, even by a sizable niche, those users would have migrated to the remaining offerings, even if they weren't perfect. Instead, they migrated to all-touch devices, which makes it clear that PKBs are a "nice to have" for some people, but not a "must have" for most of them.

    And, again, where were the "millions of PKB fans" with the K1 and K2? Even if the launch wasn't perfect (and, yes, it wasn't), if there was real demand, people would have sought them out and bought them, as people did for, say, OnePlus phones 2-5 years ago. But that didn't happen - demand continued to fall.

    You can argue the "why" all day long, but manufacturers only need to look at the trend line and they lose all interest in PKBs. Manufacturers are looking to make devices that sell to the masses, in high numbers, not to make devices that sell to small and still rapidly-shrinking niches.
    TgeekB and John Albert like this.
    11-07-19 06:49 PM
  11. bh7171's Avatar
    Yes, but overall demand for PKB phones has been steadily falling for a decade. And if PKBs were so desired, even by a sizable niche, those users would have migrated to the remaining offerings, even if they weren't perfect. Instead, they migrated to all-touch devices, which makes it clear that PKBs are a "nice to have" for some people, but not a "must have" for most of them.

    And, again, where were the "millions of PKB fans" with the K1 and K2? Even if the launch wasn't perfect (and, yes, it wasn't), if there was real demand, people would have sought them out and bought them, as people did for, say, OnePlus phones 2-5 years ago. But that didn't happen - demand continued to fall.

    You can argue the "why" all day long, but manufacturers only need to look at the trend line and they lose all interest in PKBs. Manufacturers are looking to make devices that sell to the masses, in high numbers, not to make devices that sell to small and still rapidly-shrinking niches.
    The new fold devices are for the masses? Sales are falling for all forms of smartphones so perhaps the new form factor is to try and incite a desire for something new.

    Vans shoes had ebbed and risen, Levi's similar, Apple was at death's doorstep, and all things 80's are cool with middle and HS kids (I have one) unless it's wireless headphones and then it's all "air pods" or nothing.

    The PKB device has a place with proper execution and support on iOS or Android. Until I see laptops and tablets being used without a PKB I'll always believe this. Plus I absolutely love hammering out messages with my Blackberry's. They have served me, my business and clients well over the past 10 years. (I have an S9 and its great for a slab- but it's lack of tactile keys and shortcuts just doesn't compare)
    the_boon likes this.
    11-07-19 07:00 PM
  12. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Postpaid account. 4 lines unlimited, Netflix for free, Mobile HotSpot and Digits (Wi-Fi calling and texting) all included for 160 flat- no taxes, etc. Even use Digits on my DTEK50.
    I figured postpaid but when the corporate store manager won’t guarantee, it’s obvious tone wasn’t BYOD of couple years ago. Even they’re less about outside devices when I asked for reasons. My point either way is that it’s not just BBMo that can’t get cooperation. There’s literally nothing any OEMs can do service wise if not carrier preferred
    11-07-19 07:12 PM
  13. TgeekB's Avatar
    Yes, but overall demand for PKB phones has been steadily falling for a decade. And if PKBs were so desired, even by a sizable niche, those users would have migrated to the remaining offerings, even if they weren't perfect. Instead, they migrated to all-touch devices, which makes it clear that PKBs are a "nice to have" for some people, but not a "must have" for most of them.

    And, again, where were the "millions of PKB fans" with the K1 and K2? Even if the launch wasn't perfect (and, yes, it wasn't), if there was real demand, people would have sought them out and bought them, as people did for, say, OnePlus phones 2-5 years ago. But that didn't happen - demand continued to fall.

    You can argue the "why" all day long, but manufacturers only need to look at the trend line and they lose all interest in PKBs. Manufacturers are looking to make devices that sell to the masses, in high numbers, not to make devices that sell to small and still rapidly-shrinking niches.
    Some people seem like they don’t understand facts. Despite facts, they have their own idea of what should be. I’m not sure what we can say to those people any more.
    John Albert likes this.
    11-07-19 07:21 PM
  14. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    The new fold devices are for the masses? Sales are falling for all forms of smartphones so perhaps the new form factor is to try and incite a desire for something new.

    Vans shoes had ebbed and risen, Levi's similar, Apple was at death's doorstep, and all things 80's are cool with middle and HS kids (I have one) unless it's wireless headphones and then it's all "air pods" or nothing.

    The PKB device has a place with proper execution and support on iOS or Android. Until I see laptops and tablets being used without a PKB I'll always believe this. Plus I absolutely love hammering out messages with my Blackberry's. They have served me, my business and clients well over the past 10 years. (I have an S9 and its great for a slab- but it's lack of tactile keys and shortcuts just doesn't compare)
    The PKB on a desktop or laptop has a place. The VKB has a place on tablets and phones. That’s not my preference but it appears to be general consensus of the masses. The people in charge of sales in all these companies follow the path of least resistance.

    It’s true about phone business commoditization and technology in general. Whether OS first or form second, the OEMs hate variety and complexity fragmentation when the margins are low. Simple mistake can wipeout the company...
    11-07-19 08:09 PM
  15. Emaderton3's Avatar
    The new fold devices are for the masses? Sales are falling for all forms of smartphones so perhaps the new form factor is to try and incite a desire for something new.

    Vans shoes had ebbed and risen, Levi's similar, Apple was at death's doorstep, and all things 80's are cool with middle and HS kids (I have one) unless it's wireless headphones and then it's all "air pods" or nothing.

    The PKB device has a place with proper execution and support on iOS or Android. Until I see laptops and tablets being used without a PKB I'll always believe this. Plus I absolutely love hammering out messages with my Blackberry's. They have served me, my business and clients well over the past 10 years. (I have an S9 and its great for a slab- but it's lack of tactile keys and shortcuts just doesn't compare)
    I also prefer the pkb. But millions upon millions are "hammering" out emails with vkb on their phones just fine and not suffering professionally for it. It is a user preference that is almost dead.
    TgeekB and John Albert like this.
    11-07-19 08:36 PM
  16. Thud Hardsmack's Avatar
    I was pretty happy with updates on my S7 on Verizon. They might skip two months out of twelve, but that's reasonable to me. Not like Apple does monthly updates either...

    But if I went back to Android... I'd get a Pixel, you would be getting great hardware with the best Android update record.
    Try a OnePlus. I wanted a Pixel previously for the monthly updates but there seems to be some compromises along with those updates (and that camera). Google just seems to not quite know how to make a good device. OnePlus is pretty good with updates; they're bi-monthly, which isn't bad, plus they support older devices - OnePlus 3 has Android 9, Android 10 is about to roll out for the 6t. And they know how to make a really good phone.

    Hence my OP for the market here in USA. LG,HTC,Nokia,Sony and Motorola all "desirable" all touch devices have and are experiencing sales declines here. It's all carriers and all Samsung and Apple. Even Pixel has screwed up. Their trade in values for the Pixel 4 on their older devices was abysmal. Apple's sales and Samsung's of new devices all declining. Without "deals" , "trade ins" and BOGO they would be materially more so. Those deals Apple and Samsung and the carriers offer keep them all afloat and the others sinking.. Like BlackBerry Mobile sales the LG's, HTC's, Sony, etc have zero carrier support.
    Which, as we all here know, is why the Big 4 don't want customers getting the idea that they can save on devices and plans - purchase a device that supports several networks, get the phone you really want, negate the requirement for a contract. Gotta have them contracts.
    11-07-19 10:29 PM
  17. bh7171's Avatar
    Exactly. I know this is a fan site but people have to realize there is nothing related to BlackBerry phones that anyone else sees as worthy to bet on. Nothing.
    BS- Are you aware of the patents Blackberry holds?
    11-08-19 01:18 AM
  18. thurask's Avatar
    BS- Are you aware of the patents Blackberry holds?
    Till they get invalidated by a judge for being the usual nebulous nonsense patent wielded by patent trolls.
    11-08-19 04:12 AM
  19. chain13's Avatar
    All those are carrier decisions.
    Do Carriers get charged for providing updates? I believe androidberry OS isn't free. Even TCL itself has to pay.
    11-08-19 08:29 AM
  20. the_boon's Avatar
    Try a OnePlus. I wanted a Pixel previously for the monthly updates but there seems to be some compromises along with those updates (and that camera). Google just seems to not quite know how to make a good device. OnePlus is pretty good with updates; they're bi-monthly, which isn't bad, plus they support older devices - OnePlus 3 has Android 9, Android 10 is about to roll out for the 6t. And they know how to make a really good phone.



    Which, as we all here know, is why the Big 4 don't want customers getting the idea that they can save on devices and plans - purchase a device that supports several networks, get the phone you really want, negate the requirement for a contract. Gotta have them contracts.
    Right, but they're not perfect.

    Each new OnePlus device is heavier and more cumbersome than the one before it.

    They still don't have IP rating or wireless charging, something Samsung has had since like 2014.

    Also, they dropped the headphone jack and notification LED starting with the 6T I believe.

    I used a 6 for a bit and it was pretty good but just very unergonomic
    11-08-19 08:32 AM
  21. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Right, but they're not perfect.
    Yet people keep buying them like Kia cars
    Each new OnePlus device is heavier and more cumbersome than the one before it.

    They still don't have IP rating or wireless charging, something Samsung has had since like 2014.

    Also, they dropped the headphone jack and notification LED starting with the 6T I believe.

    I used a 6 for a bit and it was pretty good but just very unergonomic
    11-08-19 08:54 AM
  22. conite's Avatar
    Do Carriers get charged for providing updates? I believe androidberry OS isn't free. Even TCL itself has to pay.
    TCL gets BlackBerry Android as part of its licencing fee. Carriers don't pay, but can mandate support terms from their suppliers.
    11-08-19 09:54 AM
  23. TgeekB's Avatar
    BS- Are you aware of the patents Blackberry holds?
    I see people are lined up for miles.
    11-08-19 05:06 PM
  24. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I see people are lined up for miles.
    What makes you think you'd ever "see" the interest in BlackBerry's patents? Patent deals get signed all the time without any press releases. I've licensed patents from everyone from NASA to Google and no one ever announced it. In many cases, companies don't want to brag that they didn't invent the technology they are selling.

    Samsung licensed a number of BlackBerry patents soon after launching Knox, but they won't tell you which ones.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-08-19 05:30 PM
  25. TgeekB's Avatar
    What makes you think you'd ever "see" the interest in BlackBerry's patents? Patent deals get signed all the time without any press releases. I've licensed patents from everyone from NASA to Google and no one ever announced it. In many cases, companies don't want to brag that they didn't invent the technology they are selling.

    Samsung licensed a number of BlackBerry patents soon after launching Knox, but they won't tell you which ones.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    The premise of the conversation was consumer interest in Blackberry phones. Try to keep up.
    11-08-19 07:46 PM
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