11-09-19 06:43 PM
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  1. danfrancisco's Avatar
    So basically it shouldn't even be marketed as "Keyboard by BlackBerry" ?

    Works for me! Take my money either way
    Sadly, as much as I love BlackBerry, I actually think associating their brand with a Samsung device would actually hurt the marketing. Samsung is in the strong position to try anything and still move units. Look at how many different variants they sell each year beyond the Galaxy and Note lines. The As and Js. How about a K? And if it was built with a BB keyboard? It would be our little secret!

    I also think that Apple would move millions of pkb units if they chose to go that route... purely on brand alone. Of course that would never happen as physical buttons are the scourge of the Apple ethos, and lord help me if I had to move to iOS to get my pkb fix... but you've got to believe that there are some companies that are strong enough to sell just about anything on name recognition alone.
    the_boon likes this.
    11-05-19 12:41 PM
  2. robnhl's Avatar
    Anyone else here in the States think any other brand has a chance with the current scenarios? It's unfortunate as I remember all the various brands (Motorola, LG, HTC, Blackberry, etc alongside the Samsungs and Apples. Now it's Apple and Samsung almost exclusively..
    I think your evaluation of the US market is off and is a couple of years behind the times. Samsung is maybe averaging 25% of the US market in recent quarters with sizeable, but declining, share still held by LG.

    Take a look at this site for some data: https://www.counterpointresearch.com...rtphone-share/

    What I find interesting is the growth in the Other and Lenovo categories. I think there's a slow developing turn in the Android market as users hold on to their phones for longer. I think a good portion of users are realizing that once they keep their phone past the end of the two year contract/payment plan that their devices are still serviceable and they like having a lower monthly cell phone bill. When it's time to purchase a new phone there are cheaper good-enough alternatives out there. This is leading to an increase in the unlocked mid-tier market where players like Motorola, Nokia, and even the Chinese brands are poised to make inroads. And once the phones are separated from the carrier, users can more easily move between networks.

    I think the major players see this. Samsung, obviously, has a wide range of products including the cheaper S10e. Apple is moving into lower price segments with the XR/11 and potential SE revival. US carriers are beginning to market 3 year payment plans. All of this is aimed at protecting their market share, in the case of the manufacturers, or their revenue streams and subscriber stickiness, in the case of the carriers.

    I think it's like turning the proverbial battleship. It isn't instant but once it starts it's hard to stop.
    Last edited by robnhl; 11-05-19 at 01:52 PM. Reason: clarification
    app_Developer likes this.
    11-05-19 01:31 PM
  3. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I think your evaluation of the US market is off and is a couple of years behind the times. Samsung is maybe averaging 25% of the US market in recent quarters with sizeable, but declining, share still held by LG.

    Take a look at this site for some data: https://www.counterpointresearch.com...rtphone-share/

    What I find interesting is the growth in the Other and Lenovo categories. I think there's a slow developing turn in the Android market as users hold on to their phones for longer. I think users are realizing that once they keep their phone past the end of the two year contract/payment plan that their devices are still serviceable and they like having a lower monthly cell phone bill. When it's time to purchase a new phone there are cheaper good-enough alternatives out there. This is leading to an increase in the unlocked mid-tier market where players like Motorola, Nokia, and even the Chinese brands are poised to make inroads. And once the phones are separated from the carrier, users can more easily move between networks.

    I think the major players see this. Samsung, obviously, has a wide range of products including the cheaper S10e. Apple is moving into lower price segments with the XR/11 and potential SE revival. US carriers are beginning to market 3 year payment plans. All of this is aimed at protecting their market share, in the case of the manufacturers, or their revenue streams and subscriber stickiness, in the case of the carriers.

    I think it's like turning the proverbial battleship. It isn't instant but once it starts it's hard to stop.
    While the “other” category may be growing or top OEMs could be shrinking, it’s all through carriers in NA primarily USA market. Here factory unlocked is where phone brands go to DIE simply put. The carriers further control what sells through enhanced calling features not being compatible on non-carrier sold hardware. The majority NA players moving to midtier helped to sink BBMo ship before any possible traction.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-05-19 02:36 PM
  4. robnhl's Avatar
    While the “other” category may be growing or top OEMs could be shrinking, it’s all through carriers in NA primarily USA market. Here factory unlocked is where phone brands go to DIE simply put. The carriers further control what sells through enhanced calling features not being compatible on non-carrier sold hardware. The majority NA players moving to midtier helped to sink BBMo ship before any possible traction.
    I think you're operating on old assumptions. My point is there market is changing and unlocked is becoming something. BlackBerry failed for other reasons which have been discussed elsewhere.
    11-05-19 02:40 PM
  5. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I think you're operating on old assumptions. My point is there market is changing and unlocked is becoming something. BlackBerry failed for other reasons which have been discussed elsewhere.
    It was becoming something 3-4 years ago until the carriers harpooned the BYOD movement to increase device sales and slow down churn. BB and other different OEMs have failed due to variety of reasons.
    11-05-19 02:43 PM
  6. the_boon's Avatar
    Sadly, as much as I love BlackBerry, I actually think associating their brand with a Samsung device would actually hurt the marketing. Samsung is in the strong position to try anything and still move units. Look at how many different variants they sell each year beyond the Galaxy and Note lines. The As and Js. How about a K? And if it was built with a BB keyboard? It would be our little secret!

    I also think that Apple would move millions of pkb units if they chose to go that route... purely on brand alone. Of course that would never happen as physical buttons are the scourge of the Apple ethos, and lord help me if I had to move to iOS to get my pkb fix... but you've got to believe that there are some companies that are strong enough to sell just about anything on name recognition alone.
    Yeah man, Apple putting a PKB on any mobile device is the last thing I'd bet on.

    Samsung, eh, sometimes they experiment, who knows?

    Aside from that, it's gonna have to be the little kickstarter stuff.
    chain13 likes this.
    11-05-19 03:51 PM
  7. TgeekB's Avatar
    I also think that Apple would move millions of pkb units if they chose to go that route... purely on brand alone.
    Interesting.
    You actually believe Apple could actually sell millions of PKB phones just because they have the logo on it?
    11-05-19 06:23 PM
  8. danfrancisco's Avatar
    Interesting.
    You actually believe Apple could actually sell millions of PKB phones just because they have the logo on it?
    I actually do believe that. I think their brand is that strong that it would attract the "oh I used to love my BlackBerry back in the day" crowd who are invested deeply in their ecosystem.

    When it comes to phones (not home speakers), I feel that Apple can sell just about anything.
    bb9900user2018 and the_boon like this.
    11-05-19 09:03 PM
  9. TgeekB's Avatar
    I actually do believe that. I think their brand is that strong that it would attract the "oh I used to love my BlackBerry back in the day" crowd who are invested deeply in their ecosystem.

    When it comes to phones (not home speakers), I feel that Apple can sell just about anything.
    They certainly have strong brand recognition and loyalty, maybe the best. I’m not sure that would equate to people buying PKB phones from them though because that is “old school”. It would be interesting to find out though but I doubt they would ever attempt it.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-05-19 09:06 PM
  10. co4nd's Avatar
    Well the last two androids I bought were Motorola because i don't like samsung software and Moto offers somewhat pure android. I would consider a pixel as well. But I mainly use iOS. The androids I buy are for my son and I have a Motorola at work for testing.
    11-06-19 01:55 AM
  11. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Well the last two androids I bought were Motorola because i don't like samsung software and Moto offers somewhat pure android. I would consider a pixel as well. But I mainly use iOS. The androids I buy are for my son and I have a Motorola at work for testing.
    Yeah I expect most the growth in the "others" category is Google's Pixel. Especially now that they are offering a value product to go along with their flagships. After that I'd expect the generic top sellers on Amazon... $100 phones. How much of an impact OnePlus will make with both T-Mobile, Sprint and possible Verizon offering their latest phone.... there could be a three way race for the Android market.

    For years now people here have said the Carrier's power is being broken up (net neutrality, VoLTE, end of subsidies....). But most everyone I know still buys a carrier phone. And experiences here sure don't encourage me that is about to change. I do know a few that for budget reasons have bought a more generic prepaid phone... but usually they end up getting rid of the cheap phone they signed up with an gotten a used iPhone.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-06-19 10:13 AM
  12. the_boon's Avatar
    Interesting.
    You actually believe Apple could actually sell millions of PKB phones just because they have the logo on it?
    I also strongly believe that.

    However, they obviously wouldn't outsell the slabs
    11-06-19 11:58 AM
  13. TgeekB's Avatar
    I also strongly believe that.

    However, they obviously wouldn't outsell the slabs
    That we agree on!
    11-06-19 12:06 PM
  14. nightsuperstephen's Avatar
    UK is rapidly going sim only. People have realized there is no such thing as a free phone and really only use carriers for sim only deals.
    11-06-19 06:01 PM
  15. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I also strongly believe that.

    However, they obviously wouldn't outsell the slabs
    Even if any Flagship Android/iOS OEM did make a PKB it wouldn’t increase overall net sales enough to improve profitability. When there’s no alternative, why cannibalize existing sales? Every PKB user eventually has to move to VKB just like every BB10 user has to move to Android/iOS eventually.
    TgeekB and Troy Tiscareno like this.
    11-06-19 06:19 PM
  16. the_boon's Avatar
    Every PKB user eventually has to move to VKB
    I hope that's not the case, there's gotta be enough people in this globe for someone out there to make PKB's.

    The rest, they can have their slabs.
    11-06-19 10:17 PM
  17. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    there's gotta be enough people in this globe for someone out there to make PKB's.
    The market has proven pretty definitely that there isn't enough people to make PKBs, at least at the level of a major manufacturer with actual carrier support and a global support and distribution infrastructure. Instead, the PKB market is soon to be left to Kickstarter projects - and even those might not last. With the Titan stuck at 3000 devices, even they might decide it isn't worth their time.
    John Albert likes this.
    11-06-19 10:56 PM
  18. the_boon's Avatar
    The market has proven pretty definitely that there isn't enough people to make PKBs, at least at the level of a major manufacturer with actual carrier support and a global support and distribution infrastructure. Instead, the PKB market is soon to be left to Kickstarter projects - and even those might not last. With the Titan stuck at 3000 devices, even they might decide it isn't worth their time.
    Who knows how big the PKB market really is.

    It could be tiny if it's just TCL and/or the kickstarters, or it could be more significant if someone like Samsung gave it a shot.
    11-06-19 11:10 PM
  19. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Who knows how big the PKB market really is.

    It could be tiny if it's just TCL and/or the kickstarters, or it could be more significant if someone like Samsung gave it a shot.
    They and all the other different OEMs gave it a shot in 00’s when PKB was the default form. Consumers themselves abandoned the form for the larger VKB screen. It’s always the same problem. Cannibalism of existing VKB sales. TCL experience shows pretty accurate OEM expectations with the Key# series level of sales.
    John Albert likes this.
    11-07-19 06:43 AM
  20. bh7171's Avatar
    They and all the other different OEMs gave it a shot in 00’s when PKB was the default form. Consumers themselves abandoned the form for the larger VKB screen. It’s always the same problem. Cannibalism of existing VKB sales. TCL experience shows pretty accurate OEM expectations with the Key# series level of sales.
    I have to disagree here. TCL and Blackberry Mobile, like Blackberry Ltd prior, completely botched and f'd up the KeyOne launch and then completely F'd all the Sprint and Verizon users with no OS update. Even your own AT&T variant does not offer the Wi-Fi calling you want and or need. Its pathetic honestly. I get more functionality from my unlocked Black Edition KeyOne on T-Mobile who did not even carry the device. I don't know why so many cannot see how and why the lack of support to Android offerings has done such detrimental damage to the Blackberry brand (BlackBerry ltd and Blackberry Mobile). Couple that with no official offerings of the Key2 for the much wanted "trade ins" and BOGO deals carriers here in the US do for Galaxy and iPhone users and you can go back to my original post. If you buy or get a Galaxy or iPhone flagship a consumer will NEVER have to pay full price again for said new flagship. I traded in my S7 for my S9 and received 360 dollar credit toward the S9. That made the decision a "no brainer". It makes a flagship less than a mid tiered device or a " unlocked" phone. I do agree that the carriers here in the US have successfully F'd all of those using a unlocked except maybe T-Mobile. With Digits I believe I garner more capability with my BE KeyOne than an AT&T, Sprint or Verizon user.

    If a Key type device was made by Apple or Samsung 1000 percent it's adoption and sales would exceed anything TCL has attempted. They have the distribution and sales channels and MOST importantly the SUPPORT that users want and need as they hold onto devices longer. In addition users would know the device would maintain value because of the support and brand.

    Have to hand it to Apple and Samsung- they have "won" here in the US for Flagship type devices like iOS and Android. Its not even arguable.
    the_boon likes this.
    11-07-19 11:04 AM
  21. the_boon's Avatar
    They and all the other different OEMs gave it a shot in 00’s when PKB was the default form. Consumers themselves abandoned the form for the larger VKB screen. It’s always the same problem. Cannibalism of existing VKB sales. TCL experience shows pretty accurate OEM expectations with the Key# series level of sales.
    Except we still don't know how an existing KEY device would have sold if it had another logo on the back.

    And if it was a Samsung logo, we know the device would have had an AMOLED display without the horrendous capacitive nav keys underneath it, and also a better camera. And at the same price point or lower.
    Such a device would have made for a more compelling package for those who were on the fence about going for a PKB, because said PKB device would offer more in the display side of things.
    11-07-19 11:11 AM
  22. conite's Avatar
    ...and then completely F'd all the Sprint and Verizon users with no OS update. Even your own AT&T variant does not offer the Wi-Fi calling you want and or need. Its pathetic honestly.
    All those are carrier decisions.
    11-07-19 11:13 AM
  23. bh7171's Avatar
    All those are carrier decisions.
    Carrier "decisions" that have never been or would be made on a Samsung Galaxy Flagship or Apple iPhone.

    Again think of your Key2 with Amoled panel, stereo speakers, Samsung One UI (very refined and functional) Samsung camera(s) 3 OS versions guaranteed AND 4 years security patches (The 2016 Samsung S7 is still receiving quarterly patches). AND the additional value of knowing you have a path to trade in your device for the latest in 2-3 years if so desired. Lastly supported and available upon release from all major US carriers.

    That kind of hardware and software support would push a said Key type device demand through the roof no doubt.
    the_boon and John Albert like this.
    11-07-19 01:00 PM
  24. Thud Hardsmack's Avatar
    Carrier "decisions" that have never been or would be made on a Samsung Galaxy Flagship or Apple iPhone.

    Again think of your Key2 with Amoled panel, stereo speakers, Samsung One UI (very refined and functional) Samsung camera(s) 3 OS versions guaranteed AND 4 years security patches (The 2016 Samsung S7 is still receiving quarterly patches). AND the additional value of knowing you have a path to trade in your device for the latest in 2-3 years if so desired. Lastly supported and available upon release from all major US carriers.

    That kind of hardware and software support would push a said Key type device demand through the roof no doubt.
    Carriers stiff updates on multiple devices across the board all the time, except for Apple. And even those that get updates usually have a wait.
    11-07-19 01:23 PM
  25. bh7171's Avatar
    Carriers stiff updates on multiple devices across the board all the time, except for Apple. And even those that get updates usually have a wait.
    Definitely not my experience from the S7 and S9 on T-Mobile. OS version with the S7 came @ a month after Samsung refined and released. Same on my S9 to One UI and from Oreo to Pie. My security updates usually come a month after as my S9 received October '19 patch last Saturday.

    Samsung and T-Mobile at least have really stepped up their game in regards to updates. And importantly they have been stable.

    I know Pixel gets things quicker but damn if they are not glitchy. Same could be said for Apple lately. We have a 6th gen iPad and my daughter has an XR. OS 13 has not been very smooth 13.3 beta was just pushed (3 updates in @ a month)
    11-07-19 01:43 PM
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