08-25-11 03:37 PM
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  1. Exposfan's Avatar
    After reading yesterday's replies to my rumours around more layoffs at RIM, and reading more about them in the latest blogs...and FULL disclosure of my own dealings with RIM's dev team, it is truly sad to say, they need to step down. Yes there are certainly good reasons to keep them on, they started the company, have been true visionaries as well, however, it is they who've led, or not led the company down its current path. How is it that they could suggest that there were never going to be cameras or mp 3 players?
    If they could allow their own massive egos to block out the sun, what will be next? It is they who have caused the massive lack of confidence in the RIM brand, either by hiring the wrong crew, or by supporting the wrong crew. The new devices might stem some of the bleeding, however, they ignored the massive sea shift demands of the consumer. How did they not see this...remember the "Pearl"? This was a silly sop to the consumer, and what did it accomplish? I desparately want to believe they can right the ship, which is not sinking, but listing and rudderless.
    My own sense of RIM is that it's still far too rooted in enterprise, where they're dealing with only a relative handful of customers (IT chiefs, mostly) whose needs turn on security and reliability, while the consumer market is all about buzz, faddish features, neat designs (hardware), loads of fun functionality (that is, not spreadsheets but an app that pops up to remind you it's Lady Gaga's birthday). It's just a wildly different market, which is fine, except RIM's culture isn't of a kind to serve it.
    Is there a field besides tech where being fast to market is so vital? I still use a Torch, and love my PB, however 500,000 PB users is the reason for the dearth of apps.
    08-11-11 09:24 AM
  2. ichat's Avatar
    Well said. I don't think they should go. I think they should just give the leadership to new minds. I don't know but its just opinion

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Bonnie Bonzai likes this.
    08-11-11 09:35 AM
  3. 01itr's Avatar
    How is it that they could suggest that there were never going to be cameras or mp 3 players?
    Same way Steve Jobs said that he would never put videos on an iPod, and then released an iPod Video. Times change, and Mike adapted with that change, is this supposed to be a bad quality?

    My own sense of RIM is that it's still far too rooted in enterprise, where they're dealing with only a relative handful of customers
    Right, RIM definitely should alienate their largest and arguably most profitable and important market to focus on you. Gee I sure am glad you aren't the CEO
    08-11-11 11:13 AM
  4. Fubaz's Avatar
    i think let them still be the 'owners' but get some new blood at the top!
    kbz1960 and the_sleuth like this.
    08-11-11 11:14 AM
  5. Exposfan's Avatar
    I certainly don't want the job, however, I didn't miss the boat on consumer apps as they apparently did! What makes you equate the Apple story to RIM? As alienation, well that will slip away from them on its own, just look to how the employees are switching, or demanding to use other platforms. In fact the consumer is driving the market place. Who thinks that the current managment can inspire the mid level guys to greatness anymore? The business model cannot sustain itself on the sale of handsets, it must be locked to services, and I suspect that with the added costs that the carriers have to remit back to RIM, this will become ever increasingly a lower end revenue stream.
    08-11-11 11:26 AM
  6. 01itr's Avatar
    I certainly don't want the job, however, I didn't miss the boat on consumer apps as they apparently did!
    You also aren't making billions of dollars.

    What makes you equate the Apple story to RIM?
    You are talking about how Mike said a BB will never have a camera and mp3, and now they do. I said how Steve said an iPod will never have video, and now they do. I thought this was pretty clear...

    Who thinks that the current managment can inspire the mid level guys to greatness anymore? The business model cannot sustain itself on the sale of handsets, it must be locked to services, and I suspect that with the added costs that the carriers have to remit back to RIM, this will become ever increasingly a lower end revenue stream.
    This is all your opinion and speculation, which I wholeheartedly disagree with. I would leave the business decisions to the people who run the multi-billion dollar company.
    08-11-11 11:32 AM
  7. daveycrocket's Avatar
    I remember many years ago the local football team (UK) had a manager that no one liked, he was this and that etc. The fans were relentless in their demands that he should go and give way to new blood. The team Ipswich town went on to win the football league a couple of seasons later. The manager was the late Sir Bobby Robson Later manager of england. Sometimes it isn't the heads that need to go, everything needs to be right. Maybe just maybe Rimm have turned the corner, lets hope so.
    01itr likes this.
    08-11-11 11:34 AM
  8. Exposfan's Avatar
    I didn't lose billions in share holder value either. This is NOT personal, if you guys have shares in RIM, as I do, then I'm sure you might consider a change at the top as well. It wasn't so long ago that Forbes considered RIM the most valuable tech company...where are they now? How can Balsillie consider himself the CMO, he's a CA, and if they truly had a world class marketing exec, they wouldn't be in this position now! They control the company, and its hirelings, I don't, and I suspect that the counter arguments here are more in devotion to the device than a true understanding of how they've devasted share values.
    08-11-11 11:40 AM
  9. justineporter's Avatar
    Like others before said, they should not be completely let go from the compant. We just need some new fresh minds I think that would make a world of difference.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-11-11 11:40 AM
  10. rollingrock1988's Avatar



    Right, RIM definitely should alienate their largest and arguably most profitable and important market to focus on you. Gee I sure am glad you aren't the CEO
    The problem is that their largest group are also consumers so they want a phone that does everything well for both business and pleasure.

    So... that's the problem they are facing.
    K Bear likes this.
    08-11-11 11:42 AM
  11. Exposfan's Avatar
    I agree with the thought of fresh minds, but who will join a company that seems to be losing those good minds already in place. People don't jump from a happy ship. I do believe those notes to BGR from the anonymous execs decrying the need for change. Will that change come, and be in time? I guess time will tell! We'll see if there is hope by the 2nd qtr. 2012, if the QNX platform is not in place, or if it fails...so long the company, Eg, Nortel. However, I don't think the Cdn. government will allow RIM to be sold, leaving it a shell of patent holdings, and manufacturing on consignments from others.
    08-11-11 11:47 AM
  12. 01itr's Avatar
    It wasn't so long ago that Forbes considered RIM the most valuable tech company...where are they now?
    I think you are blowing this out of proportion. RIM is far from dead, they are still making loads of money... It's just that their stock price is down...

    How can Balsillie consider himself the CMO, he's a CA
    Well that's completely irrelevant... What about Steve Jobs, what is he? Hint:
    " In 1972, Jobs graduated from high school and enrolled in Reed College in Portland, Oregon. Although he dropped out after only one semester, he continued auditing classes at Reed, such as one in calligraphy, while sleeping on the floor in friends' rooms, returning Coke bottles for food money, and getting weekly free meals at the local Hare Krishna temple."

    They control the company, and its hirelings, I don't, and I suspect that the counter arguments here are more in devotion to the device than a true understanding of how they've devasted share values.
    Exactly, so let them do what they know best.

    The stock prices go up and down, sorry about your luck. I really could care less about what the stock price is, all I care about is the company and what they are doing. I think Mike and Jim are the only CEOs capable of taking this company where it needs to go.
    08-11-11 11:54 AM
  13. 01itr's Avatar
    who will join a company that seems to be losing those good minds already in place. People don't jump from a happy ship. I do believe those notes to BGR from the anonymous execs decrying the need for change.
    All speculation.
    08-11-11 11:56 AM
  14. Exposfan's Avatar
    It might be speculation to believe they can save the company, something most institutional investors have long given up on...Stephen Jarislowski of Jarislowski and Frasor, (Montreal) said it best..."Steve Jobs is a better marketer" This is a market that RIM and Jim and Mike created, they nurtured it, and sold it across hundreds of carriers, made tons of money, (while not paying dividends I might add)and although RIM has no debt, and billions in cash, (they've been foolishy buying back shares to increase that modest share price, instead of investing in top notch managers, and marketers. In any case, we'll see 2nd qtr. 2012
    08-11-11 12:06 PM
  15. Bonnie Bonzai's Avatar
    i think let them still be the 'owners' but get some new blood at the top!
    Yes I think you are right on this. It is time for the old boys to take a well earned bow and bring in some new people with progressive ideas. I think they are having a very hard time letting go of their baby.
    08-11-11 12:16 PM
  16. anon3396357's Avatar
    What makes you equate the Apple story to RIM?
    It boggles my mind as well when 01itr responded to how I mentioned how the co-CEOs deliberately resisted media capabilities on BBs. I guess he's just happy to take pot shots at Apple whenever he can.
    08-11-11 01:08 PM
  17. 01itr's Avatar
    It boggles my mind as well when 01itr responded to how I mentioned how the co-CEOs deliberately resisted media capabilities on BBs. I guess he's just happy to take pot shots at Apple whenever he can.
    On the contrary, I was trying to show him that just because someone goes back on their word, or changes their mind, adapting with the flow of technology, that does not make them a bad CEO.

    But thanks for taking "pot shots" at me instead of responding to my post

    Fallacy: Personal Attack

    In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim.
    08-11-11 02:03 PM
  18. Economist101's Avatar
    Same way Steve Jobs said that he would never put videos on an iPod, and then released an iPod Video. Times change, and Mike adapted with that change, is this supposed to be a bad quality?
    Let's not confuse statements made to the general public with statements made to internal corporate executives.

    Right, RIM definitely should alienate their largest and arguably most profitable and important market to focus on you. Gee I sure am glad you aren't the CEO
    You're right. RIM is exactly who it appears to be at this moment, which is an enterprise-centric company that can't connect with consumers. Similarly, Apple is a consumer-centric company that can't really connect with enterprise, but lucky for them consumers like their devices so much that they're pushing the enterprise to support them. For RIM, it's too bad the reverse isn't true.
    kevinnugent likes this.
    08-11-11 02:12 PM
  19. 01itr's Avatar
    Let's not confuse statements made to the general public with statements made to internal corporate executives.
    Sorry, could you please clarify which one was made to internal corporate executives?

    (Hint: neither of them)

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

    Future BlackBerries will not include the cameras that have proven to be big sellers on cellphones, because government and corporate customers view them as a security problem, according to Mike Lazaridis
    Quote from a 2004 article.
    08-11-11 02:27 PM
  20. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    The problem is that their largest group are also consumers so they want a phone that does everything well for both business and pleasure.

    So... that's the problem they are facing.
    when Mike was quoted as saying no cameras or mp3 players the consumer smartphone market was not even a notable fraction of the government and big enterprise markets.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01itr likes this.
    08-11-11 02:30 PM
  21. anon3396357's Avatar
    On the contrary, I was trying to show him that just because someone goes back on their word, or changes their mind, adapting with the flow of technology, that does not make them a bad CEO.

    But thanks for taking "pot shots" at me instead of responding to my post

    Fallacy: Personal Attack
    From the same article that you referenced:

    Not all ad Hominems are fallacious.
    08-11-11 10:50 PM
  22. dentynefire's Avatar
    when Mike was quoted as saying no cameras or mp3 players the consumer smartphone market was not even a notable fraction of the government and big enterprise markets.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    It could have been RIM dominating the consumer space if they wanted to. They didn't want to. Now everybody is eating their lunch. People aren't stupid they can see that one guy is making "this" over there, why don't we have that?

    I don't think they should go. They are both talented and are bringing outside talent in. What makes me question myself is the new always focused camera. If you want to take a "note" as a pic or of text its pure garbage. Not appropriate on a phone to me. I can see the comparison shots on BGR right now. Errrr that's okay I hear Nokia has a similar camera. Oh right never mind
    08-12-11 06:40 AM
  23. 01itr's Avatar
    From the same article that you referenced:
    Aw, it seems you missed out on the whole article. Let me quote it here for you. I will underline the parts I believe you may have missed.

    Not all ad Hominems are fallacious.
    Okay so you got one sentence, but I think you may have missed the rest of it...

    In some cases, an individual's characteristics can have a bearing on the question of the veracity of her claims. For example, if someone is shown to be a pathological liar, then what he says can be considered to be unreliable. However, such attacks are weak, since even pathological liars might speak the truth on occasion.

    In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim.
    08-12-11 09:51 AM
  24. rollingrock1988's Avatar
    when Mike was quoted as saying no cameras or mp3 players the consumer smartphone market was not even a notable fraction of the government and big enterprise markets.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Yeah I am just talking about now really. I wasn't even aware of BB then.
    08-12-11 11:00 AM
  25. Economist101's Avatar
    Sorry, could you please clarify which one was made to internal corporate executives?

    (Hint: neither of them)
    On the contrary, the "new" information here is the NY Times comment, of which I was not aware. I would imagine that if indeed Mike Lazaridis didn't believe he'd ever build a BlackBerry with a camera, he also said the same to his execs. Don't make the mistake of assuming that because you show that the comment was made to the NY Times, it wasn't made to, say, the RIM board.
    08-12-11 11:08 AM
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