[TheScionicMan]

LOL, I love how people become experts on running huge corporations because they bought a couple of devices and read a few articles...

What are your feelings on the CEO of your vehicle manufacturer? What about your TV maker? How's their corporate structure panning out for you?

[TechAlberta]

Mike and Jim didn't "lose billions in shareholder value", the stock went down. Mike and Jim have taken a company from $6 billion to $20 billion in three years. The market is fickle and constantly changing and often short sighted. Did Apple "lose billions in shareholder value" between 1989 and 1999? If shareholders had averaged down or simply held on they would have seen the longer story play out.

[fabfreddie]

Mike and Jim do indeed need to be fired or demoted. I can remember when I had my 8300, end every time a new release came out you had the most minor of changes, you gained something but lost something else. You could never have the all encompassing badass phone, no, you had to pick a model based on what was good for you.

Want Wifi, then no GPS, want GPS then no wifi, etc. etc.

And of course that still continues to this day. Want NFC then keyboard, want no keyboard and NFC, then get a keyboard.

This company has the resources to blow the competition to **** if they wanted to, but the top management is holding them back.

Why not release all 3 new phones with lighted trackpad, forward camera, Wireless Hotspot, NFC, HDMI Out, Real 1 Gig Ram, not the fake 768 which actually means 188 (friggin liars), Camera Autofocus, Dual core processors and the highest pixel count screen available period. All three different form factors with all the goodies that would service 100% of the entire business AND consumer market and they would be standard across the board, easier for developers.

All the things I mentioned are not fantasy, they have been out for sometime from their competitors.The goal is to beat them, not kinda sorta catch up oh that's good enough for now these two bozo's have been doing.


Sorry, the two bozo's this thread addresses have been asleep at the switch for 5 years out of the 11, that is pretty bad IMO. And the reason is simple, they were lazy and gipped their customers with substandard products.

[Zizzzzy]

I think RIM should get CrackBerrry to host a contest to see who will be the next CEO. Clearly everybody on the forums knows how to run a multi billion dollar company and knows what they are talking about.

Pay attention to what happening outside of the press distortion field and you'll see they are positioning themselves into a good spot to be for the next era of BlackBerry.

[fabfreddie]

I think RIM should get CrackBerrry to host a contest to see who will be the next CEO. Clearly everybody on the forums knows how to run a multi billion dollar company and knows what they are talking about.

Pay attention to what happening outside of the press distortion field and you'll see they are positioning themselves into a good spot to be for the next era of BlackBerry.

Yes, by putting out phones with no auto focus and a ridiculous price tag. Perhaps you should get out of the "Jim and Mike rip off and lie to loyal users" distortion field.

[the_sleuth]

In the consumer market, Jim & Mike are outside their comfort zone. If we watch interviews of both, all they harp about are what CIOs are telling them (security, BES compatibility with other smartphones, perhaps finally ActiveSync).

Consumers want the latest hardware (dual-core, HD recording, AMOLED screens, 8 MP camera, etc) and wide variety of apps/content to suit their needs.

RIM's big mistake is not forming more alliances early on (2009 & 2010) for network in content for music, video, internet phone, and worldwide delivery channels (like Skype, PayPal, Alibaba Pay, Amazon, Netflix, Baidu MP3).

The new BBs and QNX will not change the fact consumers want content readily available. Hopefully, RIM has learned from its mistakes.

[TBacker]

From the information we have available to us, we know:

• From the start, Blackberry has used their corporate niche to differentiate themselves, and has heavily resisted any changes that may stray from a straight business image. This continues to be the mindset of the co-ceo's.
• The consumer market has been just "icing on the cake", unimportant to the thinking at RIM.
• The combination of the rise of iPhone and Android have removed the icing from that cake.
• Corporations are opening their smartphone policies to allow other secure-able (and in some cases any) smartphones. This is starting to eat the cake, forcing RIM to rely more on the consumer side that was ignored, and on foreign sales of lower end devices.
• Allegedly there is internal pressure from the creative departments to innovate and modernize, but the co-ceo's are still in the protect-the-niche mode and are still resisting.
• Allegedly there are increasing attempts by investors and board members to get them to see the light and change. Not change completely, but change to modernize the product specs, and to balance the product for consumers and business types alike.

Granted I'm not on the inside, but personally, I get the vibe that Mike is stubborn and Jim is content, or at least powerless to change Mikes mind. RIM has grown up and Mike still wants the company and environment that is in its baby pictures.

Change is in order. Put someone else in charge of the roadmap and execution who understands and honors RIM's legacy but with a mind toward bringing the product into the hearts of BOTH businesses and consumers in 2012 and 2013.

Oh, and FWIW, let this be a lesson to Apple and Google - don't be complacent in your niches either! Apple - you need to start embracing security and the enterprise in addition to your huge consumer base. Google - so far you're doing well, but Android is still very much in it's infancy and shows it - don't stop at "good enough".

[Zizzzzy]

Yes, by putting out phones with no auto focus and a ridiculous price tag. Perhaps you should get out of the "Jim and Mike rip off and lie to loyal users" distortion field.

What exactly is ridiculous about a $169 price tag? Perhaps you need to look to your carriers,as this is a fairly standard price tag.

I agree that no auto focus sucks, but i do not see where that translates into a lie and getting ripped off as a loyal customer.

A customer who does not read specs before buying a device with spec requirements has not been lied to nor ripped off.

[TheScionicMan]

LOL, some people are so concerned about the LOOK of their smartphone that they will give up functionality for a cool form factor. I don't think they used EDOF camera to save money, but rather to save space. It allows for a thinner design and with too many people worried about form over function, this is what you get. Instead of building a beast that's a little thick, we've got an ultra-thin phone to appeal to the "consumer" market. Be careful what you wish for...

[dalton4L]

They should look into acquiring Steve Jobs.

[jabo052]

The bigger the smartphone fad gets the more new Blackberry customers forget what market BlackBerry was developed for. People buy them for the wrong reasons and then complain and expect them to become an iphone.

IMO, trying to be more like the iphone and trying to please the other market is what has really hurt the quality over the past few years. They're stretching themselves too thin just to try and appease a market that's buying them for the wrong reasons in the first place.

They're called smartphones for a reason, but half the owners have no business owning them. Kinda like the internet and having kids. Quit trying to buy an apple and then complain when you end up with an orange...or blackberry.

[TBacker]

The bigger the smartphone fad gets the more new Blackberry customers forget what market BlackBerry was developed for. People buy them for the wrong reasons and then complain and expect them to become an iphone.

IMO, trying to be more like the iphone and trying to please the other market is what has really hurt the quality over the past few years. They're stretching themselves too thin just to try and appease a market that's buying them for the wrong reasons in the first place.

And yet, the "market BlackBerry was developed for" is eroding, because the other phones that people use for life outside of work are coming into work and slowly being accepted by CIO's.

Yes, RIM will be around for the foreseeable future, but their core market is eroding. So they can either become a small niche vendor, or evolve.

There is absolutely no reason that a BlackBerry can not keep it's core functionality and match the feature set of other phones at the same time. The fact that they made some changes in an attempt to modernize the OS is NOT why it is broken. It's their top down culture, mindset, and broken process that is killing their advancement and quality.

[tack]

You're right. RIM is exactly who it appears to be at this moment, which is an enterprise-centric company that can't connect with consumers. Similarly, Apple is a consumer-centric company that can't really connect with enterprise, but lucky for them consumers like their devices so much that they're pushing the enterprise to support them. For RIM, it's too bad the reverse isn't true.

This is exactly their problem. The world is changing in that people are allowed and desire more and more a device for both business and personal use. Additionally, people like me (and for you smartas--s out there I do run a company) influence what IT does based on my opinions not just totally the security outlook. There are ways to secure all corporate data on all platforms. The consumer influence is huge and a major factor, and people need to accept it.

I don't know if they need to go, but I have been a leader through tough times and have worked them out. That does not always happen. Tough times in the market with perception may predict future financial tough times, even if the company is financially sound today. I do think that if half of the environmental and morale issues brought up in the BGR letter are true, they probably need to go. Sometimes people are good at running a smaller to mid sized company but not a huge one. Also people sometimes use up their good ideas and the company's and market's needs surpass their abilities or the environment their company needs to compete. Maybe some of those are the case for RIM.

Most of you are polarized and many are childish and defensive of your position. It is not productive. Also, stockholders are supposed to have an opinion about how companies are being ran. Don't attack that reality.

I hope RIM comes back in market perception. Heck BGR is giving them good reviews of late! That's a good sign. However, sometimes boards make changes at the top just for perception in the market, no matter the reality. There is also a time value of money. Good enough is not good enough when people think you are missing market opportunity. Investors want maximum return, not just good returns!

[avt123]

The bigger the smartphone fad gets the more new Blackberry customers forget what market BlackBerry was developed for. People buy them for the wrong reasons and then complain and expect them to become an iphone.

IMO, trying to be more like the iphone and trying to please the other market is what has really hurt the quality over the past few years. They're stretching themselves too thin just to try and appease a market that's buying them for the wrong reasons in the first place.

They're called smartphones for a reason, but half the owners have no business owning them. Kinda like the internet and having kids. Quit trying to buy an apple and then complain when you end up with an orange...or blackberry.

Then tell RIM to remove the devices fromt he consumer market so BBs don't have to compete with or be compared to the iPhone.

[_StephenBB81]

Then tell RIM to remove the devices fromt he consumer market so BBs don't have to compete with or be compared to the iPhone.

It is the media who compare it to the iPhone, not the consumers.

Why not have the industry change the term Smartphone to
Media Phone and Messaging phones

No iPhone user can argue that the iPhone belongs in a messaging category over a Media category, or the BlackBerry belongs in a Media over a messaging, they ARE different categories.
The F250 is not in the same market as the Escalade, yet both can be had for about $65000, the media in the Auto industry recognize as different products address different need sets, and they compare within those need sets, the Mobile phone industry groups them all together under the same umbrella,

[trsbbs]

It is the media who compare it to the iPhone, not the consumers.

What?

With all do respect,,and I do mean that, you might want to think the above statement over a little more.

For something that is not compared by the consumer to the BB line it sure is kicking the BB phones back side to the moon and back.

They don't compare it? Then why is RIM adapting the BES to handle the IPhone and Droid? (which I think is a dumb idea and will further hurt their phone sales)

Also why is RIM trying so hard to bring a phone out that can do what the IPhone does?

Maybe I missed something, I have been known to do that from time to time.

Those media folks must be buying a "Ton O' IPhones" then.

Tim

[avt123]

It is the media who compare it to the iPhone, not the consumers.

Why not have the industry change the term Smartphone to
Media Phone and Messaging phones

No iPhone user can argue that the iPhone belongs in a messaging category over a Media category, or the BlackBerry belongs in a Media over a messaging, they ARE different categories.
The F250 is not in the same market as the Escalade, yet both can be had for about $65000, the media in the Auto industry recognize as different products address different need sets, and they compare within those need sets, the Mobile phone industry groups them all together under the same umbrella,

I'm not too sure about that deRusett. I agree the media plays a big part in it, but I have heard people make honest comparisons between BBs and iPhones. I still know some people with BBs and they are always comparing between the two.

I do agree that BBs are better (for most) for messaging and the iPhone is better at media. However, they are both smartphones. They share a lot of the same functions, one just does some better than the other and vice versa. There is already a Messaging phone and Media phone market. They fall under feature phones. If you want them to split the smartphone market into two as well, I can see that but I can also see people getting extremely confused.

The Escalade is a Luxury SUV. The F250 is a workhorse/ badass truck. The auto industry is a totally different market though. The iPhone can be a workhorse as well. Just like the Escalade can get down to business, but most that I know who have an Escalade don't use it for that. They use it for luxury. Unless it is the pick-up version.

BBs are already known as business class smartphones. The iPhone is known as a smartphone that anyone can use.

[_StephenBB81]

What?

With all do respect,,and I do mean that, you might want to think the above statement over a little more.

For something that is not compared by the consumer to the BB line it sure is kicking the BB phones back side to the moon and back.

They don't compare it? Then why is RIM adapting the BES to handle the IPhone and Droid? (which I think is a dumb idea and will further hurt their phone sales)

Also why is RIM trying so hard to bring a phone out that can do what the IPhone does?

Maybe I missed something, I have been known to do that from time to time.

Those media folks must be buying a "Ton O' IPhones" then.

Tim

Those that are IN the market for a Keyboard device are rarely in the market for a touch screen, and vise versa,
RIM is trying to bring out a phone that meets what the consumer demand is! I am NOT saying that the BlackBerry can't be better, and can't try and do more, what I am saying is they are different classes of devices, and the consumers are comparing the devices because the media puts them in the same class, they are NOT for the same users.
the iPhone is a Great phone, as is the BlackBerry, but what works for some doesn't work for others, giving the BlackBerry negative marks in the media because it's screen is smaller, but not giving the iPhone negative marks for not having a keyboard just shows the fact that the argument weighs the devices differently.

MOST consumers will be better served with iPhones, and they are selling better shock!

RIM is addressing BES for use with mode devices because that is what their clients what, so good business practice is to do that if it will maintain you clients. They are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts

[_StephenBB81]

I'm not too sure about that deRusett. I agree the media plays a big part in it, but I have heard people make honest comparisons between BBs and iPhones. I still know some people with BBs and they are always comparing between the two.

Do you think they would be comparing the 2 if they didn't read in every article about BlackBerry how it compares to the iPhone?

you can't go into a Mobile phone store and ask for a BlackBerry without the sales person showing you an iPhone, and that is due as much to them reading media as much as the consumer.
you don't have a person come in and say they want a Motorola flip phone, and them point out an HTC candy bar? because the flip is a different class than the candy bar.

I do agree that BBs are better (for most) for messaging and the iPhone is better at media. However, they are both smartphones. They share a lot of the same functions, one just does some better than the other and vice versa. There is already a Messaging phone and Media phone market. They fall under feature phones. If you want them to split the smartphone market into two as well, I can see that but I can also see people getting extremely confused.

I don't like the term smartphone first of all, as the phones are not smart, they do what they are told for the most part, but the biggest Strengths of the iPhone ARE it's media capabilities, heck Apple advertises you get an iPhone IN your phone, because that is a feature set that is STRONG on the iPhone, that doesn't negate what it offers in other fields, but a consumer looking for a strong media device with no previous hatred for iTunes and it's processes would be served very well with an iPhone.
Where as a Person who's primary function is messaging, and they are not in need of video play back, or music storage, or a plethora of 3rd party apps would be better served by a BlackBerry, also by splitting the categories potentially BlackBerry could actually get some real QWERTY competitors out of Android Manufacturers as they would have a category to try and market into.

The Escalade is a Luxury SUV. The F250 is a workhorse/ badass truck. The auto industry is a totally different market though. The iPhone can be a workhorse as well. Just like the Escalade can get down to business, but most that I know who have an Escalade don't use it for that. They use it for luxury. Unless it is the pick-up version.

BBs are already known as business class smartphones. The iPhone is known as a smartphone that anyone can use.

Go sit in an Ford F250 KingRanch and go sit in a Cadilac Escalade when you drive 200km tell me which one is more luxurious
Hint, (the King Ranch mmmm)
Both the vehicles can do much of the same things, Just like a Full touch screen phone, and a qwerty candy bar phone, BUT they ARE for different markets, they are priced the same, and many of the basic tasks are near the same, but each has different strengths.

[Xterra2]

What exactly is ridiculous about a $169 price tag? Perhaps you need to look to your carriers,as this is a fairly standard price tag.

I agree that no auto focus sucks, but i do not see where that translates into a lie and getting ripped off as a loyal customer.

A customer who does not read specs before buying a device with spec requirements has not been lied to nor ripped off.

He's talaaking about the $250 price tag
Verizons 9930 is also $250

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Xterra2]

LOL, some people are so concerned about the LOOK of their smartphone that they will give up functionality for a cool form factor. I don't think they used EDOF camera to save money, but rather to save space. It allows for a thinner design and with too many people worried about form over function, this is what you get. Instead of building a beast that's a little thick, we've got an ultra-thin phone to appeal to the "consumer" market. Be careful what you wish for...

The issue is that the consumer doesn't care
The consumers prefer auto focus
The samsung galaxy S2 ? Slim, infact slimmer than the 9900 (right?) And has aa 8mp with 1080p video recording g

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Zizzzzy]

What exactly is ridiculous about a $169 price tag? Perhaps you need to look to your carriers,as this is a fairly standard price tag.

He's talaaking about the $250 price tag
Verizons 9930 is also $250

Right, which is why i pointed out Bells price of $169, and told them to look towards their carrier to complain about the price.

[avt123]

Do you think they would be comparing the 2 if they didn't read in every article about BlackBerry how it compares to the iPhone?

Actually, the majority of the people I know only know about BBs and iPhones as smartphones. They consider every Android device a "Droid", and that is because of Verizon commercials.

you can't go into a Mobile phone store and ask for a BlackBerry without the sales person showing you an iPhone, and that is due as much to them reading media as much as the consumer.

Android is shown before BlackBerry as well.

I don't like the term smartphone first of all, as the phones are not smart, they do what they are told for the most part, but the biggest Strengths of the iPhone ARE it's media capabilities, heck Apple advertises you get an iPhone IN your phone, because that is a feature set that is STRONG on the iPhone, that doesn't negate what it offers in other fields, but a consumer looking for a strong media device with no previous hatred for iTunes and it's processes would be served very well with an iPhone.
Where as a Person who's primary function is messaging, and they are not in need of video play back, or music storage, or a plethora of 3rd party apps would be better served by a BlackBerry, also by splitting the categories potentially BlackBerry could actually get some real QWERTY competitors out of Android Manufacturers as they would have a category to try and market into.

I agree with this. Although, I think the Physical QWERTY category is good enough to think heavy messaging is going on with the device (or at least designed to with a smartphone).

Go sit in an Ford F250 KingRanch and go sit in a Cadilac Escalade when you drive 200km tell me which one is more luxurious
Hint, (the King Ranch mmmm)

Lol. Yea I need to try it out, but I believe you. I'm just saying Cadilac is known for luxury and Ford Trucks are known to be more "rugged".

Both the vehicles can do much of the same things, Just like a Full touch screen phone, and a qwerty candy bar phone, BUT they ARE for different markets, they are priced the same, and many of the basic tasks are near the same, but each has different strengths.

Exactly. BlackBerry itself is a class of its own. It's just different. Same thing with every other mobile OS. Each have their strengths and weaknesses and each have a different market of users. It's just people who want it all who assume everything has everything.

[Exposfan]

I guess the thread is wearing a bit thin for this topic, so, since I started it, I'll chime in again...
For all those people who say they're not shareholders in RIM, I'd suggest they check their pension plans, especially if they have a public sector one...RIM is certainly a heavy weight in those. As well, I'm certain that most private pension plans have some position in RIM as well. My point was not to dump Mike, and Jim, but they should recognize the company is floundering, and rudderless. There's no set direction with consumer centric apps. Have a look-see at the PB's offering of apps, and note that there is no consistancy to the layout, even the sports' apps offerings have the same symbol/icon...a football. Is anyone paying attention to detail? Back in the early spring when Tyler and his team were offering development dollars, (now since discontinued), did they really envision a new business model? I can tell you in my business case, it was offered, (we declined due to the onerous restrictions placed upon our delievery schedules), there was no sense of urgency to get our apps to market. Since then, we've come to learn that many of the dev team have been fired, or left. Mike and Jim certainly have nurtured the company, have been leading the charge, however, in the evolution that takes place in the tech industry, its time to recognize that the scouts get arrows in the back, while the settlers stake the land claims...time to retire the whole RIM scouting dept.

[sam_b77]

Yes, by putting out phones with no auto focus and a ridiculous price tag. Perhaps you should get out of the "Jim and Mike rip off and lie to loyal users" distortion field.

For crying out loud, buy the Torch 9810 if you want AF camera, keyboard and touchscreen. Oh but wait, then you would complain about not having NFC, even though none of the 9900 users expect to do anything substantial with NFC in the next 6 months.
This is taking on insane proportions.There are different models with diff features, choose the one that best suits you. Maybe that's the IP4, so get it no problems.