[Cappyshirt]

I cannot speak for everyone but I'm definitely not saying that building the Cascades SDK was easy. No doubt it was a huge task - but there's a possibility that it will be to the detriment of the 'wow factor' factor of the OS at launch. As much as I take on board your point about this being a first generation OS - the fact of the matter BB10 is not up against Donut or iOS1. It's up against Jelly Bean and iOS6 - two very good operating systems in their own right. BB10 needs to win back market share - people are already happy on other platforms and as such need to be wowed into switching back. Rightly or wrongly the modern consumer is about the visual, and TAT seemed to be the specialists in this area - it would just be nice to see a little more of that 'speciality' in what we've seen up to this point.



This is the key word for me and one that underpins my viewpoint. You rarely get a second chance to impress, especially in the modern world - so putting your best foot forward is even more important than it once was.

Thank you for your points and opinion, I think there well crafted and I appreciate them. (I don't understand how flame wars start in this forum)

I like to believe this too, but I like to believe more that what's going to sell the device is it's brand name "Blackberry" RIM would instantly looses customers without this name. However, I do believe that this "Wow" factor is important, I'm just confused because I don't understand what this missing Spectacular-TAT-feature there suppose to be adding, or what more they need add to there amazing line up (granted they will obviously unveil more features).

To us things like the Hub and all-in-one-contacts and the gestures etc, are old because we've been watching RIM for so long. But, to the new eye this platform looks amazing!

I'm simply stating that I think they have done alot based on the "Check this weird Blackberry 10 Device RIMS trying to sell" Test that I've done with all my friends and family and every time they look at it in amazement.

It's also hard for me to judge/defend this platform that I've never used nor experienced. So, I don't understand why everyone already predicted that TAT has not done enough to win people over.

(Not to pick on you Mr.F, I think this is a great thread for conversation.)

[BB_Bmore]

Have a feeling there is a good bit of tat in bb10. Also have a feeling tat is what's going to make the media apps look amazing. Has no one wondered why we haven't seen them yet? Its because they are special......sshhhhhhh....

[Rello]

Have a feeling there is a good bit of tat in bb10. Also have a feeling tat is what's going to make the media apps look amazing. Has no one wondered why we haven't seen them yet? Its because they are special......sshhhhhhh....

I agree...there's a reason they haven't been shown off. I would love to see TAT implement some of their concepts into BB10 but I think there are still surprises being held for the event

[glamrlama]

Have a feeling there is a good bit of tat in bb10. Also have a feeling tat is what's going to make the media apps look amazing. Has no one wondered why we haven't seen them yet? Its because they are special......sshhhhhhh....

I have the same hope for the stand alone apps like the media player. Just looking at some of the "players" shown in the QNX car demos makes me hopeful. Not saying those were made by TAT but I think TAT most likely has several awesome "in house" media players just laying around on a server somewhere. Through in some BBM integration and some social media discovery tools for new music. Please RIM; Take my MONEY!

[Mr_F]

I do believe that this "Wow" factor is important, I'm just confused because I don't understand what this missing Spectacular-TAT-feature there suppose to be adding, or what more they need add to there amazing line up (granted they will obviously unveil more features).

To us things like the Hub and all-in-one-contacts and the gestures etc, are old because we've been watching RIM for so long. But, to the new eye this platform looks amazing!

I'm simply stating that I think they have done alot based on the "Check this weird Blackberry 10 Device RIMS trying to sell" Test that I've done with all my friends and family and every time they look at it in amazement.

It's also hard for me to judge/defend this platform that I've never used nor experienced. So, I don't understand why everyone already predicted that TAT has not done enough to win people over.

I don't want to turn this into a love fest but I too appreciate your comments - you make some good points.

Maybe my expectations of what BB10 would be like with TAT on board were too high - but I stand by the fact that they were not unfounded based on what they've produced before (see videos posted earlier). It's difficult to explain other than the lack of a wow factor (for me personally). When I show people my Playbook they're still amazed at the left/right bezel gestures when switching apps full screen or viewing the row of minimized fully running apps - and that's nearly 2 years after it hit the market. As much as I'm impressed by the BlackBerry Hub I personally do not consider that to be a wow factor (not for your average consumer anyway). The nearest BB10 gets to a similar wow moment (so far) is the pulling back of a screen to reveal what is beneath - that is undoubtedly 'cool' and always gets a good reaction. The keyboard is also very nice but I doubt anyone will switch back solely because of that. We live in a World of 'look what my phone can do, can yours do it?' - and so it would be nice to have a little more to reply back with - especially as these are some of the people RIM is trying to 'win' back. I understand BlackBerry is about the doing and getting things done - it would just be nice to have a bit more eye candy whilst I'm doing it.

It's also hard for me to judge/defend this platform that I've never used nor experienced. So, I don't understand why everyone already predicted that TAT has not done enough to win people over.

Agreed, and as such we can only comment on what we know of the UI. The visual style and framework is pretty much set and has been for a while now. Someone stated earlier that they felt the UI was worthy of a 7/10. I personally wouldn't go as low as that but I will say it does feel a bit vanilla (to me). I was hoping TAT would have sprinkled some more magic dust on the UI and pushed it up to a 9, 10 or even an 11.

[jr4941]

I think TAT's involvement has and will be very important to the general flow and feel of BB10. I would be very surprised if we weren't wowed by some of the native apps that are heavily influenced by TAT. Between media player, video player, BB travel, etc. I'm sure we'll have some great apps. I would suspect that for the more 'out there' kind of apps that we've seen from TAT in the past, they may be released as non-native apps and as more experimental. Of course, I could be wrong, but I suspect that we'll see TAT's influence be on beautiful, functional, easy-to-use apps.

[Unbiased Tech]

The OS does look nice so far so it's not the biggest deal but I was absolutely mind blown when I first saw their demos. I hope that it's really influenced in media because we haven't seen much of that so far and that is where I feel they're transitions could shine and offer that mind blowing experience we've seen in the demos. It wouldn't be the end of the world because what we've seen of the OS looks nice but I have been feeling the same way. As long as it's smooth and lag free (cough* browser *cough*cough*) then it's great in the long run.

[Mr_F]

I would be very surprised if we weren't wowed by some of the native apps that are heavily influenced by TAT. Between media player, video player, BB travel, etc. I'm sure we'll have some great apps. I would suspect that for the more 'out there' kind of apps that we've seen from TAT in the past, they may be released as non-native apps and as more experimental.

I too think this could be the route - and it may prove to be a sensible one in the long run. Give users the choice of how stock or 'out there' they want their phone experience to be. A crazy UI/UX can polarize people (a la Windows Phone 8) - and as such is a very fine line to tread.

[cfx_will]

Whilst I'm not disagreeing with what you've said, I firmly believe the better option would have been to do both (if possible). They developed Cascades and as such (at this point in time) have a more intimate knowledge of how to get the best out of it.

This would be lovely but I think in real world perspective, we're all limited to constraints like time and money. If they had a certain period of time to either do one or the other, I think they made the right choice in providing Cascades to the people. Just as your first post mentioned, it's like a World class chef in the kitchen but failed to get them to prepare a dish for us to taste on opening night?... I think rather than providing the Kitchen, They are providing tools for new chefs to take their place. Rather than having only one company do amazing things, how about getting those tools into other company/developer's hands so they can make great things too. In your example, I see it as TAT taking on more apprentices to do the things they do rather than going out to do it themselves. If they are limited to do one, I think they invested enough and made the right choice.

[RocPlayr]

How does one ask "Is there enough TAT in BB10?" We really haven't seen much. Peek, Flow, and Hub look amazing! So, what we haven't seen? We haven't seen the compass, pictures, music, podcast, videos, maps, or BBM. Why is anyone picking apart BB10 when we haven't even gotten our hands on it yet?

[RubberChicken76]

I'm not sure what's 'enough TAT', but it would be nice to see some more visual touches in spots. I like the fading effect when people slide up, I like the clock but it would be great to see even more nice visual and motion touches with general homescreen navigation. From what I've seen, the user experience is great ... just a bit more pizazz would be nice.

On my PlayBook, I can't tell you the number of times people have gravitated to that little TAT Scrapbook app.

[houshinto#IM]

I'm sure TAT had a hand in Cascades, but TAT isn't just Cascades.
At the moment nobody knows the full extent of what TAT will bring, and I'm fine with that.

I'd actually prefer Blackberry to hold it hands to the very last moment. Gives the copycats 0 time to one up and give nothing to the media/activist anaylists to misconstrue or pan, aka their usual M.O. these days.

[Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes]

How does one ask "Is there enough TAT in BB10?" We really haven't seen much. Peek, Flow, and Hub look amazing! So, what we haven't seen? We haven't seen the compass, pictures, music, podcast, videos, maps, or BBM. Why is anyone picking apart BB10 when we haven't even gotten our hands on it yet?

We have seen qtleast an early version of the compass and it looked great

[jesse_h]

I must have missed the part where we saw the complete bb10 operating system demonstrated by RIM.

[TheScionicMan]

I'm afraid I'm with Bla1ze on this one. There's still 49 days for them to crank something out in the kitchen (if they haven't done already) but at the moment things look very muted. I was really hoping that TAT's creative talent would have enhanced efficiency on a BlackBerry - but at the moment it's looking like there's a conflict between the two. Maybe straight lines (efficiency) and curves (creativity) don't mix...

Appearance and performance are usually at opposite ends of the spectrum. Having a flashy app usually takes away from the efficiency of the app. Top priority for me is that a Picture app, for instance, would show me my pictures and allow easy navigation. I'm not going into my pictures to be wowed by the app that is showing them, I want to see my pictures. Functionality is Job #1, then add bells and whistles if it doesn't have a negative effect.

It's like a Swiss Army knife. When you're first checking it out, the saw and the corkscrew gets lots of attention. But once you have one, you find that you a more important aspect to look at would have been the blade, the scissors and the bottle opener because that's what you really using. I hope they focused on the core and not the fluff.

[TheScionicMan]

This would be lovely but I think in real world perspective, we're all limited to constraints like time and money. If they had a certain period of time to either do one or the other, I think they made the right choice in providing Cascades to the people. Just as your first post mentioned, it's like a World class chef in the kitchen but failed to get them to prepare a dish for us to taste on opening night?... I think rather than providing the Kitchen, They are providing tools for new chefs to take their place. Rather than having only one company do amazing things, how about getting those tools into other company/developer's hands so they can make great things too. In your example, I see it as TAT taking on more apprentices to do the things they do rather than going out to do it themselves. If they are limited to do one, I think they invested enough and made the right choice.

It's like the old saying "Give a man a fish...". TAT taught them how to fish instead...

[Majestic Lion]

Part of the problem here is with the concept demo vid that TAT did way back whenever...a lot of people are missing/will miss the "concept demo" part and expect to have every single thing shown off in that vid at launch for BB10. The doom-and-gloomers are quite comfortably waiting in the wings as well to yell "that's it?! FAIL!!!oneeleven".

Hopefully RIM has several other cards to play here and people's patience will be amply rewarded.

[Mr_F]

This would be lovely but I think in real world perspective, we're all limited to constraints like time and money. If they had a certain period of time to either do one or the other, I think they made the right choice in providing Cascades to the people. Just as your first post mentioned, it's like a World class chef in the kitchen but failed to get them to prepare a dish for us to taste on opening night?... I think rather than providing the Kitchen, They are providing tools for new chefs to take their place. Rather than having only one company do amazing things, how about getting those tools into other company/developer's hands so they can make great things too. In your example, I see it as TAT taking on more apprentices to do the things they do rather than going out to do it themselves. If they are limited to do one, I think they invested enough and made the right choice.

I'd agree on the whole with what you said and I too believe it is the right approach if the constraints you mentioned are present.

The way I see it TAT (through Cascades) has prepared the landscape for us to reap rich and fertile crops (apps). As you said, Cascades has given developers the tools to create beautiful apps (with relative ease). In many ways it's the old 'give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day but teach a man to fish and he'll feed himself for the rest of his life' proverb.

My point is though this is a very long term approach. If we take it to the extreme/absolute then the short term approach would be to make all the flashy apps themselves. The medium term approach would be to give Cascades to the masses but also max out on a few apps themselves. And finally, the long term approach would be to put all their faith in developers and just give them the tools to create.

None of those approaches are right or wrong - they all have their pros and cons. My personal view is that the medium term approach is best suited (and the least risky) in terms of where RIM currently find themselves. Providing some launch day flash would be a nice way to reward the loyalty and patience of those who have stuck with RIM through the difficult times - those (like myself) that have held off from upgrading to support BB10 on launch day. As numerous other threads have alluded to, many consider this the last chance for RIM and as such I would hate to think that early adopters will once again be asked to to wait for the platform to really catch the imagination and/or mature. A first generation OS will never be as refined as a later version - there's no surprise in that - so having TAT cook up a few surprises will be a nice way to ease some of those inevitable early growing pains.

The problem I have with the absolute long term strategy is RIM may not get a chance to really show what the platform is capable of. If early apps aren't breathtaking then RIM could be dead in the water without really having the chance to flesh out the potential of BB10. Sure you can teach someone to fish - but they will never be as good as the teacher - at least not at the start anyway.

...And to clarify once again, there is no reason to suggest TAT isn't working on something special - I'm just really hoping that they are.

[Mr_F]

How does one ask "Is there enough TAT in BB10?" We really haven't seen much. Peek, Flow, and Hub look amazing! So, what we haven't seen? We haven't seen the compass, pictures, music, podcast, videos, maps, or BBM. Why is anyone picking apart BB10 when we haven't even gotten our hands on it yet?

As Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes said we've seen the compass and it does indeed look very impressive.

We've also seen screens of the music app, an early version of the pictures app and a pretty much final version of BBM 10 - along with the main visual styling for the OS as a whole.

[Mr_F]

Appearance and performance are usually at opposite ends of the spectrum. Having a flashy app usually takes away from the efficiency of the app. Top priority for me is that a Picture app, for instance, would show me my pictures and allow easy navigation. I'm not going into my pictures to be wowed by the app that is showing them, I want to see my pictures. Functionality is Job #1, then add bells and whistles if it doesn't have a negative effect.

I fully agree with your points - creativity can often impede on true functionality/performance. But creativity doesn't always have to be fireworks and popcorn - it could be something as simple/minor as the screen transitions/animations when iOS fist hit the market. As many posts have alluded to, it would be nice to have a little more 'pizazz' (to quote RuberChicken76).

[BB_Bmore]

Tat had much more than a hand in cascades. TaT is pretty much solely responsible for the Cascades framework. With that being said only 1 of the 6 original members of TaT are still employed under RIM Sweden. Everyone else moved on do to internal conflicts. Or so I've read.

I'm sure TAT had a hand in Cascades, but TAT isn't just Cascades.
At the moment nobody knows the full extent of what TAT will bring, and I'm fine with that.

I'd actually prefer Blackberry to hold it hands to the very last moment. Gives the copycats 0 time to one up and give nothing to the media/activist anaylists to misconstrue or pan, aka their usual M.O. these days.

Sent from my BlackBerry by Choice using Tapatalk

[Mr_F]

With that being said only 1 of the 6 original members of TaT are still employed under RIM Sweden. Everyone else moved on do to internal conflicts. Or so I've read.

...I did not know this. If it is indeed true - Ouch!

[Plazmic Flame]

TAT left their mark in Cascades. The smooth transitions and all, show where TAT had influence. I'm sure too that there are apps in the labs, waiting for a practical use.

[RECOOL]

TAT was founded in 2002 its 2012 now the founder are old guys probably got bored of things and went on to other ventures one of them his wife got cancer.RIM pretty much got the the next gen TAT that had just moved into phone UI's during teh boom of smartphones.Next gen TAT they are no slouches as video has proven.And it seems RIMS trying to get outside developers to create super apps so its not just TAT doing incredibles its others too and thats what we wan for BB's.

[jonty12]

Tat had much more than a hand in cascades. TaT is pretty much solely responsible for the Cascades framework. With that being said only 1 of the 6 original members of TaT are still employed under RIM Sweden. Everyone else moved on do to internal conflicts. Or so I've read.



Sent from my BlackBerry by Choice using Tapatalk

This is why I'm a little concerned we'll be missing the fireworks. I commented a few months ago after a TAT demo that I didn't want to see anymore TAT demos unless we saw it in the final product. I think 5 of the 6 founders agree with that point of view and saw that their creativity would be lost in BB10 (i.e., no sign of it). I hope I'm wrong. January 30 has to have several "wow" moments. It has to have cheering moments. TAT can/could have provided that. I hope RIM didn't handcuff them too much.