01-02-12 06:21 PM
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  1. ADozenEggs@aol.com's Avatar
    Except you already have an app for all those things built into your phone, google maps that is.

    And if you need an app for something to do......I don't know
    You misunderstand the heart of my post. But that's ok. Personally, I don't care for Google Maps... I like how Urban Daddy delivers what I'm looking for. I use what I choose to use. Just like you. No?

    As for needing an app to do something... The app doesn't make a decision for me, it tells me what my options are. Life should about options. No? PB, iPad, Asus. All about options and what you expect for your money. No?

    But maybe in your options are more limited than mine.
    01-01-12 03:22 PM
  2. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I'm very interested in making my own native apps for BB10 and PB when a native UI framework is available (hopefully next month?). I'm not an immersive game developer, so the APIs available for that are not applicable to my own work. And I'm not interested in making an Air app, I'm a native developer (Objective-C, C++, and Java) on iOS and Android.

    As for our clients and the company as a whole, they will be interested if and when RIM turns things around. I do hope BB10 does that.
    So 75 million bbos and growing potential customers is not good enough for you?

    Funny how other developers can do it.

    I'm starting to question your purpose on this forum, so far you don't waste any opportunity to put Rim down.
    01-01-12 03:35 PM
  3. app_Developer's Avatar
    In one of your earlier posts you had mentioned that RIM's numbers are due to selling cheap phones at lower margins and didn't add as much revenue. I agree with what you said....
    So while selling cheap Curves reduces RIM's bottom line and is wrong according to you, this statistic of selling 5 million phones without generating any revenue is good?
    Because RIM is in the business of making money from selling phones (service revenue is a small part of their revenue). Google is an advertising company. Totally different business models.

    Why should RIM or Apple even care about these millions of activations of Android?
    Because it's all about the ecosystems. You make a good point about cheap Android phones potentially not being on data plans. But still, in terms of actual paid impressions (which is what developer revenue in Android market is really all about right now), Google is outperforming everyone else by a long shot. That's how we get paid.

    On the other hand, Apple is outperforming everyone else in app sales. Again, different model.

    Sure, google has deep pockets but it won't be long when people will realise the hollowness of these sales. They are just enabling cheap phone makers sell an OS which they couldn't have made themselves.
    Which is driving what Google wants, which is control of the ad impressions. Their concern is that when users are on Apple or Microsoft or RIM or Nokia devices, Google can't be sure (in the long run) to get those eyes on their ads. Now, they've managed to box Microsoft and RIM out quite nicely, and are working hard on Nokia. They've even managed to arrest Apple's growth. This is all good for them, even if they never make a penny on the actual device sales.

    But again, if we're talking about success as a company, RIM and Apple need to make money on phones. Google does not.

    EDIT: BTW, if RIM were actually selling 50 million cheap Curves, then that would be interesting for another reason. But that's not what's happening. They're really just replacing high end phones roughly 1:1 with cheap ones. Maybe even less than 1:1 for the current quarter.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 01-01-12 at 03:58 PM.
    01-01-12 03:42 PM
  4. app_Developer's Avatar
    So 75 million bbos and growing potential customers is not good enough for you?

    Funny how other developers can do it.
    I can understand their choice given the lack of competition on that market. For me, the APIs available for BB7 and 6 are extremely limited. And so my interest in BB7 and 6 ended when RIM announced they were migrating to a new, much better OS.

    On my other screen I'm working away on an Android app right now. So again, it's a matter of competing priorities. If they do BB10 right, and turn things around, then that would be worth it for me. (other developers have other priorities and tradeoffs of course). Even if they don't turn it around, and just complete the PB OS and BB10, it would still be interesting as a hobby.

    As for my views on RIM, I don't want them to fail. Choices are good for us as developers. And fun. I just find it fascinating that people are in such complete denial over their situation. I suppose it is a good thing for RIM that they have such loving fans.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 01-01-12 at 03:55 PM.
    01-01-12 03:50 PM
  5. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I can understand their choice given the lack of competition on that market. For me, the APIs available for BB7 and 6 are extremely limited. And so my interest in BB7 and 6 ended when RIM announced they were migrating to a new, much better OS.

    On my other screen I'm working away on an Android app right now. So again, it's a matter of competing priorities. If they do BB10 right, and turn things around, then that would be worth it for me. (other developers have other priorities and tradeoffs of course). Even if they don't turn it around, and just complete the PB OS and BB10, it would still be interesting as a hobby.

    As for my views on RIM, I don't want them to fail. Choices are good for us as developers. And fun. I just find it fascinating that people are in such complete denial over their situation. I suppose it is a good thing for RIM that they have such loving fans.
    No offense, but blah blah, if you don't put your money where your mouth is and actually make apps for Blackberry devices then you're no good to us and you're wasting our time.

    I don't want to hear from a developer that doesn't want to build for BB, I want to hear and I support the ones that do.

    As I said, plenty make apps for it, plenty are high quality and plenty make money out of it.

    Good luck with your android apps I have zero interest in. I'm here, I buy apps, but my cash is not good enough apparently.
    spike12 likes this.
    01-01-12 04:06 PM
  6. 13echo4's Avatar
    So 75 million bbos and growing potential customers is not good enough for you?

    Funny how other developers can do it.

    I'm starting to question your purpose on this forum, so far you don't waste any opportunity to put Rim down.
    I agree with you. He wants to build apps (make money next year). So does he really see a shortage in android apps being sold and going to need some extra cash flow?
    I think its a smoke screen. Why spend the time he does here when could be taking that time to build BB apps and making some money. Wait do we get paid for post?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-01-12 05:07 PM
  7. ADozenEggs@aol.com's Avatar
    I agree with you. He wants to build apps (make money next year). So does he really see a shortage in android apps being sold and going to need some extra cash flow?
    I think its a smoke screen. Why spend the time he does here when could be taking that time to build BB apps and making some money. Wait do we get paid for post?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I'm not a developer, but I would probably devote my time developing apps for the section of the market that has the most deman. Here in the U.S. Android and iOS account for 83% of the apps that are being downloaded. This is according to Nielsen. And Android downloads are almost twice what Apple is.

    So, if I were a one-man shop like many developers are. I would probably focus on Android apps a well. Depends on your resources, I guess.

    Think about it. Amazon's CEO says he has about 10 developers working on their Droid app, another 10 working on iOS but MAYBE two guys working on BB. He stated this at a press conference illustrating the new iOS5 app on his iPhone.

    When asked about his BB he said he only uses it for email.

    R.I.M needs to correct certain perceptions or get out of the ring. At least here in the U.S..

    I'll see if I can locate those Nielsen figures.
    01-01-12 05:26 PM
  8. JAGWIRE's Avatar
    ... In my opinion, taking basically a 9 month break from releasing anything new makes it real easy for consumers to forget about you and check out the latest and greatest. ...
    but this is why they are going on a nutso marketing/advertising blitz so that people don't forget about them
    01-01-12 05:31 PM
  9. palmless's Avatar
    In one of your earlier posts you had mentioned that RIM's numbers are due to selling cheap phones at lower margins and didn't add as much revenue. I agree with what you said.

    However the 5 million Android activations are in the same boat as RIM selling cheap curves. You mentioned worldwide, then you can get a cheap Android for less than $70 without plan in India. This is typically made by Indian companies like MicroMax and Karbonn. The people who buy these phones don't activate data plans and would not even dream of spending $2 on Apps. So Google earns nothing from the OS sale as its Open Source, the buyers are not buying anything on Android Market, so that kills any secondary Revenue Stream for Google and since thee buyers don't have a data plan that basically kills off any ad stream revenue.
    Also developers don't make any money from these sales as well. No data=No Android Market= no revenue for developers.

    So while selling cheap Curves reduces RIM's bottom line and is wrong according to you, this statistic of selling 5 million phones without generating any revenue is good?
    Why should RIM or Apple even care about these millions of activations of Android?

    Sure, google has deep pockets but it won't be long when people will realise the hollowness of these sales. They are just enabling cheap phone makers sell an OS which they couldn't have made themselves.
    Long quote, because you nailed it and point out a big gap between Android "activations" and what most of us think of as Android "users" (someone who uses more than the ten key telephone pad on the device).

    Spot on.
    01-01-12 06:03 PM
  10. Moonbase0ne's Avatar
    but this is why they are going on a nutso marketing/advertising blitz so that people don't forget about them
    Even with heavy marketing, if your still showing the same thing you were showering a year ago while the competition is showing the latest and greatest, newest and coolest, fastest and smoothest, your going to have a hard time getting the masses(again, mostly in the US for sake of argument), to care.

    A lot of people generally don't want a phone that's, old, when they are getting a new smartphone at least. They want new, fresh, cool, etc...

    Remember, there's the next iPhone, a slew of cheap, midrange, and high end Androids,and the new Nokia WP's.

    For tablets there's the next iPad, along with the current and possibly next Kindle Fire(which is already doing pretty good, despite it's flaws), and I think(not sure) the upcoming Windows tablets.

    If this was the automotive industry or the fashion industry, or heck, almost any industry, do you think waiting approx 9+ months to release anything new will keeps people's interest for too long when everyone else will have new and possibly better products than what you have now? Not to mention, the Playbook only seems to sell well when its on sale. The question is, how long can they afford to keep sale it at the discounted price? And, I don't really see OS2 having that big of an impact but I could be wrong. It's simply an OS upgrade, not a new product.


    War Is All We Know
    01-01-12 06:06 PM
  11. kill_9's Avatar
    For Research In Motion the best long-term strategy would be to allow the share prices to plummet, in the short-term, to penny-stock status, be delisted from the major exchanges, and return to a privately held company free of any obligation to shareholders. A privately-held Research In Motion, which remained profitable due to subscription fees, could then focus on innovative products and services in the secure mobile messaging arena and grow its market share.
    01-01-12 06:18 PM
  12. ADozenEggs@aol.com's Avatar
    For Research In Motion the best long-term strategy would be to allow the share prices to plummet, in the short-term, to penny-stock status, be delisted from the major exchanges, and return to a privately held company free of any obligation to shareholders. A privately-held Research In Motion, which remained profitable due to subscription fees, could then focus on innovative products and services in the secure mobile messaging arena and grow its market share.
    Are you serious?
    01-01-12 06:34 PM
  13. app_Developer's Avatar
    I agree with you. He wants to build apps (make money next year). So does he really see a shortage in android apps being sold and going to need some extra cash flow?
    I think its a smoke screen. Why spend the time he does here when could be taking that time to build BB apps and making some money. Wait do we get paid for post?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I heard that.

    It's Christmas week. Things are very slow at the office. I had planned to work on a PB idea this week, but I found out Cascades isn't there yet. I'm looking forward to it next month.

    Meanwhile, I can't think of anything interesting that I can do with the old APIs. Like anyone else, it's more fun working with modern APIs and tools. I can't even run the old SDK on my Mac!
    01-01-12 06:39 PM
  14. palmless's Avatar
    Are you serious?
    I think he's being heavily sarcastic.
    01-01-12 07:42 PM
  15. ADozenEggs@aol.com's Avatar
    I think he's being heavily sarcastic.
    Ya think?!
    01-01-12 08:01 PM
  16. vbeyette's Avatar
    RIM may not need saving, but I just found that Huffington Post Tech has named the PB as 3rd out of the 14 worst tech flub of 2011. I just hope 2.0 can deliver what should have been in 1.0 or what's the point?!
    01-01-12 08:48 PM
  17. kevinnugent's Avatar
    What was 1st and 2nd?
    01-01-12 08:50 PM
  18. JBenn911's Avatar
    there are 13 and right now the PB is ranked the 7th worst...it's a user voting poll
    01-01-12 08:57 PM
  19. sam_b77's Avatar
    Because RIM is in the business of making money from selling phones (service revenue is a small part of their revenue). Google is an advertising company. Totally different business models.



    Because it's all about the ecosystems. You make a good point about cheap Android phones potentially not being on data plans. But still, in terms of actual paid impressions (which is what developer revenue in Android market is really all about right now), Google is outperforming everyone else by a long shot. That's how we get paid.

    On the other hand, Apple is outperforming everyone else in app sales. Again, different model.



    Which is driving what Google wants, which is control of the ad impressions. Their concern is that when users are on Apple or Microsoft or RIM or Nokia devices, Google can't be sure (in the long run) to get those eyes on their ads. Now, they've managed to box Microsoft and RIM out quite nicely, and are working hard on Nokia. They've even managed to arrest Apple's growth. This is all good for them, even if they never make a penny on the actual device sales.

    But again, if we're talking about success as a company, RIM and Apple need to make money on phones. Google does not.

    EDIT: BTW, if RIM were actually selling 50 million cheap Curves, then that would be interesting for another reason. But that's not what's happening. They're really just replacing high end phones roughly 1:1 with cheap ones. Maybe even less than 1:1 for the current quarter.
    I don't know, but I'm always wary of free stuff. Thing once the disconnect between Android Activations and Actual data users on the phones are more widely known, why would you as a developer want to develop apps for Android. Its the classic trap of high volumes and no revenue.

    I would assume that RIM's plan of lower volumes but more revenue paying customers is better.

    Also the problem for a free OS or anything free for that matter is that to break the competition the free supplier initially provides a good product but slowly the interst wanes and the product quality falls. After all Linux has not proved itself to be the Windows killer it was supposed to be.
    In the long term a good business plan will always win out over a business plan which basically wants to give away its product for future earnings which may never come.
    01-02-12 02:22 AM
  20. app_Developer's Avatar
    I don't know, but I'm always wary of free stuff. Thing once the disconnect between Android Activations and Actual data users on the phones are more widely known, why would you as a developer want to develop apps for Android. Its the classic trap of high volumes and no revenue.
    Because we know from our own experience that we get good revenue. 2009 was a bit rocky, but the last two years have been good. The last 6 months have been great.

    And of course some of our apps are not really revenue driven at all (like TV service apps, social media apps, that sort of thing.) There the only number that matters to us or our clients is the number of users and downloads. Those people pay in other ways.

    But in both cases, the Android market has proven itself quite well to us, and so we'll stick with it. Apple's market is even stronger in that their customers will also pay for apps consistently throughout the world. So of course iOS is priority #1 for us, but Android is a solid priority #2.

    I would assume that RIM's plan of lower volumes but more revenue paying customers is better.
    That may be. We have to see it, of course. And we'd feel much better if RIM would report actual sales volume in their store. So far they haven't that we've seen.

    Also the problem for a free OS or anything free for that matter is that to break the competition the free supplier initially provides a good product but slowly the interst wanes and the product quality falls.
    After all Linux has not proved itself to be the Windows killer it was supposed to be.
    In the long term a good business plan will always win out over a business plan which basically wants to give away its product for future earnings which may never come.
    But again, Google makes money on mobile ads. That's not "future earnings". Those are present earnings. Now, of course, you're right that they probably make less money at that than Apple makes selling $500-$600 phones. But I guess we'll see who wins over time.

    I don't think the Linux/Windows comparison works here. Linux on the desktop suffers from the same problem as the less popular phone OSes. Mainstream users won't switch because they already know how to use Windows (and for most people that is a big accomplishment, and they don't want to tackle learning a new OS when they spent years learning the current one. I'm talking about mainstream normal users.)

    And moving to Linux means giving up the apps like Microsoft Office and such that everyone is used to.

    Android has neither of these issues. It has lots of apps, most of the ones that people care about. And for a huge number of people it is the one they know how to use.

    Most other Google services are free and have produced solid revenue for Google for years. Why would free Android be less successful for them than free internet search or free Gmail or free Chrome?
    Last edited by app_Developer; 01-02-12 at 02:56 AM.
    pantlesspenguin likes this.
    01-02-12 02:45 AM
  21. bobs415's Avatar
    From your footnote, you're so heavily invested in RIM products that maybe you have just a tiny bit of bias in your post???
    01-02-12 08:35 AM
  22. sam_b77's Avatar
    From your footnote, you're so heavily invested in RIM products that maybe you have just a tiny bit of bias in your post???
    I assume that was directed at me.
    Actually no I'm not as invested in RIM as one might think from the footnote. I have one BB and one PB.

    Actually Apple users are typically far more invested in Apple. Typically they will have a Macbook, iPhone, iPad and iPod. I have one Apple product (Macbook) and two RIM products.

    I'm not too invested in the RIM ecosystems as I haven't bought many apps, mainly because BB has no apps
    01-02-12 09:06 AM
  23. dandbj13's Avatar
    Actually Apple users are typically far more invested in Apple. Typically they will have a Macbook, iPhone, iPad and iPod. I have one Apple product (Macbook) and two RIM products.
    I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Apple products work well as stand-alone products. You realize that the vast majority of iDevice users are not Mac users, but Windows users, right? I can't even begin the guess the percentage of non-iPhone users who own an iPod touch. Like you, those people only own one Apple product, not all of them.
    Last edited by dandbj13; 01-02-12 at 10:03 AM.
    01-02-12 09:16 AM
  24. sam_b77's Avatar
    I pretty sure that's wrong. Apple products work well as stand-alone products. You realize that the vast majority of iDevice users are not Mac users, but Windows users, right? I can't even begin the guess the percentage of non-iPhone users who own an iPod touch. Like you, those people only own one Apple product, not all of them.
    Well in my experience (obviously its limited to people I know and hence not a trend marker) most people who buy an iPhone or iPod end up slowly converting to another Apple product and another. I'm not denigrating them. Actually it makes sense for them to do so with iCloud etc ensuring that they have access to their own media etc across a multitude of devices.
    01-02-12 09:52 AM
  25. palmless's Avatar
    Well in my experience (obviously its limited to people I know and hence not a trend marker) most people who buy an iPhone or iPod end up slowly converting to another Apple product and another. I'm not denigrating them. Actually it makes sense for them to do so with iCloud etc ensuring that they have access to their own media etc across a multitude of devices.
    True.

    I myself remember buying an iPod nano, my first Apple purchase, and being stunned at how well it worked. A two-page user manual, consisting mainly of FCC and UL mandatory warnings.

    Then I went to an Apple store to buy an accessory. Wow. Intelligent staff. CLEAN functional displays.

    It was a slippery slope from there.

    But the prior poster is correct, the stats show that an overwhelming majority of iPhone and iPad users identify as Windows users when they make the iPhone or iPad purchase, even if MANY convert after their experience with iOS.
    01-02-12 10:40 AM
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