01-02-12 05:21 PM
135 ... 23456
tools
  1. Economist101's Avatar
    It can't be denied that Rim is making money. It might not be the money they could be making.
    No one denies RIM is "making money." If they posted a net income of $1 they'd be, by definition, "making money." The worrisome part is the downward trend, the fact that their income this year is so much less than last year. It's the exact opposite of where RIM was several years ago, when they had profit at the same level they have now, but the trend was upward.
    01-01-12 08:34 AM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Apps. We've been over this on the board before many times. But have you noticed that many airlines, grocery stores, restaurants, banks and services and even governments have apps for their customers now? Some support 3 or 4 platforms, but most support just two now. American customers are starting to notice that, others will too if RIM doesn't get developers back quickly.

    So this is what I mean by compatible. Every time a user sees a sign that says "download our app to save waiting in line here" or "download our app to use this great feature we built for you", they have to look at the their BB phone and say "oh, right, that won't work with my phone".
    I know what you're saying. My grocery store has mobile apps for Android and iOS. Blackberry users need to go to the mobile web site. However, the barcode scanning feature is not available there, so I can't just visit the HTML web site on my PC, scan barcodes, and automatically add the items to my shopping list, like if the app were available.
    01-01-12 08:37 AM
  3. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Apps. We've been over this on the board before many times. But have you noticed that many airlines, grocery stores, restaurants, banks and services and even governments have apps for their customers now? Some support 3 or 4 platforms, but most support just two now. American customers are starting to notice that, others will too if RIM doesn't get developers back quickly.

    I was at a museum in London this summer that had an absolutely gorgeous photography app that you could download as you were leaving. Of course it only supported iPhone and Android. Not even a mention of Blackberry.

    These are the types of things that RIM customers will miss as developers lose interest in the platform. And again, this is why BB10 is so important.

    And hardware accessories have just started. The last several hotels where I've stayed have iPod/iPhone radio docks conveniently next to the bed. My car has an iPhone connector in it, and my apps even display on screen now. My last car had an iPhone connector and could control the iPhone playlists from the steering wheel.

    I have an app that alerts me when my children forget to brush their teeth or take their vitamins in case we ever forget to ask (monitors the tray that hold their brushes). I have an app to quickly (couple of taps) tape a game or TV show from the bus if I forget to do so. Again, the service I use doesnt support blackberry, just Android and iPhone. Same decision taken by my bank, every restaurant I go to, the local farmer's market, the local Chipotle, the buses here, airport transportation, the parking system, and even the Internal Revenue Service.

    We're working on a beautiful app for tourists to NY right now. And another app for in-store purchases as a major retailer. Neither client has even asked us about blackberry. The working assumption is we'll discuss that with them after we see how BB10 goes. Oddly enough, we are doing a Windows 7 version because Microsoft has a promotion deal with them.

    So this is what I mean by compatible. Every time a user sees a sign that says "download our app to save waiting in line here" or "download our app to use this great feature we built for you", they have to look at the their BB phone and say "oh, right, that won't work with my phone".
    Wow, that's serious app overkill, LOL

    No offense but that's ridiculous, maybe I'm old fashion. I've yet to see anybody going around in a shop scanning products with their own phone, don't forget they all provide scanners in store.

    Monitor the kids tooth brush tray? LOL, can't you just smell their mouths to see if they brushed. I'm sure they worked out by now that they can lift the brush of for a few minutes and put it back.

    And call me crazy but I will NEVER install a goverment app in my phone.
    01-01-12 08:52 AM
  4. Economist101's Avatar
    No offense but that's ridiculous, maybe I'm old fashion. I've yet to see anybody going around in a shop scanning products with their own phone, don't forget they all provide scanners in store.
    Then you haven't been looking.

    Amazon Will Pay Shoppers $5 to Walk Out of Stores Empty-Handed - Tricia Duryee - Commerce - AllThingsD

    Monitor the kids tooth brush tray? LOL, can't you just smell their mouths to see if they brushed. I'm sure they worked out by now that they can lift the brush of for a few minutes and put it back.
    Yeah! And can't you just remember to put a tape in the VCR to record that show? And instead of receiving an e-mail, why can't you just pick up the phone and call all 75 people on your distribution list, or just send postal mail? And why bother with a car when you can just walk to work? And who needs a refrigerator when you can just drink all the milk before it gets warm?

    And on the "smell your kid's mouth" proposition, they could just take a mouthful of toothpaste to deodorize their mouths, right? So it's not like your method is fool-proof either.

    And call me crazy but I will NEVER install a goverment app in my phone.
    I think his point is that, more and more, you won't have the option. That may be fine for you, and to each their own, but not everyone has your priorities. In fact, based on sales data, your priorities are out of tune with most consumers, so as long as the BlackBerry is exactly what YOU want it to be, no more no less, there will be no "comeback."
    01-01-12 09:04 AM
  5. southlander's Avatar
    Which is not the worst-case scenario ... it could certainly be worse -- they could have Windows phone share numbers.
    Which puts RIM in a bit of a pickle. "Everyone" says RIM is not offering a modern smartphone experience; ditch the keyboards (yes not BB diehards), get apps, put out all touch glass slab devices.

    This all sounds to me a lot like what Microsoft has done. They (MS) had like 18% of the US smartphone market a few years back with Windows Mobile, as crummy as it was. Now they've lost that mostly by killing Win Mobile and Windows Phone is not sparking interest in the public. Yes yes, developers love it -- blah blah blah. Consumers ain't interested. Carriers are talking it down. Everyone likes it (I do), yet ignores it.

    So RIM has to be looking at all this. They have to be thinking about how in addition to loss of interest with US consumers, they could also manage to harm their remaining core business if not careful. Hence the dual strategy of BB10 first to consumers in NA and the traditional BB OS elsewhere as long as that works.

    I mean if I was RIM I would be a bit scared watching Microsoft simply because it is almost a carbon copy scenario for what BB10 faces.
    01-01-12 09:22 AM
  6. ADozenEggs@aol.com's Avatar
    Wow, that's serious app overkill, LOL

    No offense but that's ridiculous, maybe I'm old fashion. I've yet to see anybody going around in a shop scanning products with their own phone, don't forget they all provide scanners in store.

    Monitor the kids tooth brush tray? LOL, can't you just smell their mouths to see if they brushed. I'm sure they worked out by now that they can lift the brush of for a few minutes and put it back.

    And call me crazy but I will NEVER install a goverment app in my phone.
    Geography plays is a major role in a users expectations. There's no getting around that fact people use what they need or at least believe they need.

    Simple example: I live in the New York Metropolitan area. I use an app(lication) on my Droid called, Urban Daddy, that helps me find new places to eat on Fridays evenings, shop, or when I'm looking for a sale or for a quick gift for my wife.

    I use this app because I literally have 100s of place to choose from the Upper East Side alone and it allows me to read user's reviews and narrow my list of options down to 2 or 3 places.

    I was out in rural Pennsylvania for X-Mas last week and, when looking for something to do, the list of options wasn't more than 11 places in total and 1 option was at least 3 miles in distance from the other. My friends all laughed, but then went on to brag about an app that helps them locate the nearest gas station if you're in a pinch.

    I remind them that I live in Manhattan and 75% of the residents don't own cars.

    Do folks in Rural PA need an app to help them find something to do? No. But I don't need a gas app either.

    But a healthy set of options allows users to choose. And choice is what it's all about.

    They say "All politics is local." I'm beginning to believe "All apps is local" as well. And I mean down to your individual device local.
    01-01-12 09:52 AM
  7. dandbj13's Avatar
    The OP is clearly not going to be convinced by argumentation that RIM is in serious trouble. He believes that stories of RIM's disastrous financials and outlook is a conspiracy of the wealthy aristocracy of spoiled brat nations. OP, all I can offer is the suggestion that you listen to the Crackberry podcast. The last one will do. Perhaps it will make a difference if you hear how the founder of this site and his peers describe RIM's situation.
    01-01-12 10:03 AM
  8. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Geography plays is a major role in a users expectations. There's no getting around that fact people use what they need or at least believe they need.

    Simple example: I live in the New York Metropolitan area. I use an app(lication) on my Droid called, Urban Daddy, that helps me find new places to eat on Fridays evenings, shop, or when I'm looking for a sale or for a quick gift for my wife.

    I use this app because I literally have 100s of place to choose from the Upper East Side alone and it allows me to read user's reviews and narrow my list of options down to 2 or 3 places.

    I was out in rural Pennsylvania for X-Mas last week and, when looking for something to do, the list of options wasn't more than 11 places in total and 1 option was at least 3 miles in distance from the other. My friends all laughed, but then went on to brag about an app that helps them locate the nearest gas station if you're in a pinch.

    I remind them that I live in Manhattan and 75% of the residents don't own cars.

    Do folks in Rural PA need an app to help them find something to do? No. But I don't need a gas app either.

    But a healthy set of options allows users to choose. And choice is what it's all about.

    They say "All politics is local." I'm beginning to believe "All apps is local" as well. And I mean down to your individual device local.
    Except you already have an app for all those things built into your phone, google maps that is.

    And if you need an app for something to do......I don't know
    01-01-12 10:04 AM
  9. the_sleuth's Avatar
    Everyone has made some very valid points. However, I think the new BB OS 7 devices are a lot better than older 6.0 et al devices. The OS is very fluid now. In my opinion, BB OS 7.0 does not need dual-core. It would be nice for hardware specs bragging rights. Due to RIM using a rather thin JM1 battery (less powerful) in most new devices, single core battery life is better than if RIM had chosen a dual-core chipset.

    Having moved on to Android and iPhone devices, I think a lot of former BB users have a bias based upon their experience on old BB devices. My 9860 device has a gpu and I have a lot of apps:

    http://forums.crackberry.com/news-ru...47/index8.html

    BB OS phones are not feature phones or just email devices (again bias from non-users). My battery pulls are very rare and usually due to some bad app I downloaded and tested.

    But in my opinion, here are RIM's strategic blunders:

    1) In the U.S. market, RIM should have launched one all-touch device (or with sliding out keyboard) with dual-core and bigger battery that is upgradeable to BBOS 10 during winter of 2011.

    2) Due to the OS transition, app developers have mostly abandoned BB OS. It comes down to money. Why develop for a platform with precipitous fall in U.S. market share?

    3) Also RIM made the same strategic blunder as Palm during it's transition to webOS. By not creating a BB 7.0 or 7.1 OS player for the PB along with Android Player, RIM has made the blunder of abandoning it's loyal JAVA developers. As mentioned by CrackBerry Kevin M. and other attendees of Oct. conference, the app developer attendance was way down.

    4) Yes, market share results are a rear view mirror. By delaying BBOS 10 devices for 12 months, RIM has chosen to gamble that heavy marketing will stabilize it's U.S. market share at some level. I personally think it won't work. Due to the bias I mentioned above;Android & iPhone users look at the new RIM devices as same-old same-old. Thus the lower projections in earnings and revenue due to lower prices for PB and marketing expenses.

    5) No key strategic partnership with larger firm with an ecosystem, as to why RIM spurned Amazon is beyond me. Let Amazon purchase an equity position. But it's too late now. Amazon will soon have an Android phone for it's ecosystem.

    Since there is no Plan B, we will see what transpires during 3 or 4 difficult quarters that could have been avoided with proper planning and less arrogance from Silly and Lazy. If RIM's gross margins fall below 30%, then RIM will start to burn cash flow.

    Happy New Year everyone!
    01-01-12 11:03 AM
  10. lexcavaj's Avatar
    And if you need an app for something to do......I don't know
    this is when my fave app comes to place - its called "poynt"
    01-01-12 11:10 AM
  11. moretreelessbush's Avatar
    No one denies RIM is "making money." If they posted a net income of $1 they'd be, by definition, "making money." The worrisome part is the downward trend, the fact that their income this year is so much less than last year. It's the exact opposite of where RIM was several years ago, when they had profit at the same level they have now, but the trend was upward.
    Besides product issues, RIM didn't anticipate and rationalize its cost structure.
    I think their recent re-org will buy them a bit more time. Ultimately, they need to shift more resources to emerging markets, where the growth is and the cost is much lower.
    the_sleuth likes this.
    01-01-12 11:11 AM
  12. belfastdispatcher's Avatar


    5) No key strategic partnership with larger firm with an ecosystem, as to why RIM spurned Amazon is beyond me. Let Amazon purchase an equity position. But it's too late now. Amazon will soon have an Android phone for it's ecosystem.
    Most Amazon services are North America only, same as Google (google voice, google tv, google music) that's the big problem.
    01-01-12 11:18 AM
  13. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    this is when my fave app comes to place - its called "poynt"
    I prefer just using Blackberry Maps, if you know how to search you'll be surprised. I also use it for navigation, uses very little data and it's very fast.
    01-01-12 11:20 AM
  14. the_sleuth's Avatar
    Yes, U.S. market is the big problem for RIM. RIM let the golden goose fly away. Amazon would have been a strong partner in U.S. There is nothing stopping RIM from making relevant partnerships in U.K, Europe, Middle East, and Asia.

    RIM is too small to try provide media content and a proper ecosystem to all regions. Just all of the regional licensing rights would cause a huge delay.

    Most Amazon services are North America only, same as Google (google voice, google tv, google music) that's the big problem.
    01-01-12 11:30 AM
  15. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Then you haven't been looking.

    Amazon Will Pay Shoppers $5 to Walk Out of Stores Empty-Handed - Tricia Duryee - Commerce - AllThingsD



    Yeah! And can't you just remember to put a tape in the VCR to record that show? And instead of receiving an e-mail, why can't you just pick up the phone and call all 75 people on your distribution list, or just send postal mail? And why bother with a car when you can just walk to work? And who needs a refrigerator when you can just drink all the milk before it gets warm?

    And on the "smell your kid's mouth" proposition, they could just take a mouthful of toothpaste to deodorize their mouths, right? So it's not like your method is fool-proof either.



    I think his point is that, more and more, you won't have the option. That may be fine for you, and to each their own, but not everyone has your priorities. In fact, based on sales data, your priorities are out of tune with most consumers, so as long as the BlackBerry is exactly what YOU want it to be, no more no less, there will be no "comeback."

    1. that doesn't apply to groceries stores, besides, read the comments, most don't support it

    2. I am a strong believer in not leaving anything plugged in overnight(except my phone) or when I'm out of the house, BIG fire hazard. The rest of your point is just a rant, doesn't make sense.

    3. Spying on your kids is never a good idea

    4. ANYBODY that bought a BBOS Blackberry has the same priorities as me otherwise they wouldn't have bought it ignoring the competition. That makes at least 5 millions more then the quarter before, so the number with same priorities as me is still growing, as a reference Rim has added enough new customers as almost the entire population of Ireland. In a quarter.
    01-01-12 11:47 AM
  16. app_Developer's Avatar
    3. Spying on your kids is never a good idea
    you'll notice I said if we forget to ask. Of course if we remember we can just ask. But lives are busy, we don't always remember everything every day. That's where computers can be helpful, especially if we carry them with us.

    4. ANYBODY that bought a BBOS Blackberry has the same priorities as me otherwise they wouldn't have bought it ignoring the competition. That makes at least 5 millions more then the quarter before, so the number with same priorities as me is still growing, as a reference Rim has added enough new customers as almost the entire population of Ireland. In a quarter.
    Wow, 5 million. That's like, what, 8 days worth of new Android activations worldwide?

    What do you expect that number to be this quarter?
    01-01-12 12:03 PM
  17. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Wow, 5 million. That's like, what, 8 days worth of new Android activations worldwide?

    What do you expect that number to be this quarter?
    Hmmm, why should I care? Android is made by many manufacturers, as a manufacturer Rim is still up there.

    Tell me this, from a app developer like yourself, if Android is so great as a platform and it has soooo many apps, how come Appworld generates more cash?
    01-01-12 12:21 PM
  18. kb5zht's Avatar
    Hmmm, why should I care? Android is made by many manufacturers, as a manufacturer Rim is still up there.

    Tell me this, from a app developer like yourself, if Android is so great as a platform and it has soooo many apps, how come Appworld generates more cash?
    That is a good point, android vs. rim is like apples vs. oranges. Its the same as when we keep reading "apple vs android". One is an operating system, the other is a manufacturer. Its a very misleading comparison, yet we see it on charts all the time. A much more meaningful comparison would be "motorola vs rim" and so forth.
    belfastdispatcher and spike12 like this.
    01-01-12 12:41 PM
  19. Moonbase0ne's Avatar
    Some things to ask/consider:

    How many here think that RIM will be ok in 2012 seeing as they will have no new phones coming out until late 2012?

    The competition will have new products coming out(more specifically Google) and Apple will have a new iPad and possible the next iPhone could be released before the new BB10 phones.

    But, aside from that, how long does RIM expect consumers to buy the current BB7 phones? And why would/should anyone if they know that the current phones won't be able to run BB10?

    Also, OS2 for the Playbook coming in a couple of months is great, but there will be a new batch of Tablets coming soon and, the current Kindle Fire is already doing better than the Playbook at fire sale, even though the PB(IMO) is the better tablet.

    In my opinion, taking basically a 9 month break from releasing anything new makes it real easy for consumers to forget about you and check out the latest and greatest.

    Of course, we don't know when BB10 will be released. It might even(though I doubt it) be released earlier than we're all expecting.


    War Is All We Know
    01-01-12 01:09 PM
  20. pfe1223's Avatar
    Some things to ask/consider:

    How many here think that RIM will be ok in 2012 seeing as they will have no new phones coming out until late 2012?
    I think RIM can survive 2012. I know that I have suggested some pretty drastic ideas in this thread, but RIM is able to leverage their popularity in strongholds like Indonesia and the like to remain profitable for the year.

    Will, as you suggest, potential customers forget about RIM given they announced no new products for 9 months? Possibly, but the responsibility falls on RIM to capture our attention. I think it could be done in two ways. One, if there will be only one OS for tablets and phones, show any and all changes to the PlayBook OS through the lens of the upcoming BBX platform. While there will be no physical devices to play with, curious individuals can preview the next RIM platform. Two, release an OS7.5 update that refreshes OS7 devices. I wouldn't expect a major change, but bug fixes and improvements across the board will breath some new life into some "old" devices, and give BlackBerry owners the impression that RIM hasn't given up on them.
    pantlesspenguin and JBenn911 like this.
    01-01-12 01:38 PM
  21. app_Developer's Avatar
    Tell me this, from a app developer like yourself, if Android is so great as a platform and it has soooo many apps, how come Appworld generates more cash?
    People are making money on ad revenue in the Google store. Purchases are problematic, though. Apple does that much better.

    RIM hasn't published any official numbers for their app sotre. The only statistic I've seen is a survey of people who are in the RIM store saying that 3/10 of the respondents did 6-figures.

    That's 3 out of 10 surveyed who are actually in the RIM store. Some people on this board are then extrapolating that into total sales for the whole store compared to Google, which is some interesting math with which I'm not familiar.

    RIM is being very cagey with actual numbers. We've asked 4 times now. Do you have actual data on the total amount of revenue going through RIM's store? Or even total number of downloads?
    Last edited by app_Developer; 01-01-12 at 01:57 PM.
    01-01-12 01:48 PM
  22. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Some things to ask/consider:


    But, aside from that, how long does RIM expect consumers to buy the current BB7 phones? And why would/should anyone if they know that the current phones won't be able to run BB10?


    In my opinion, taking basically a 9 month break from releasing anything new makes it real easy for consumers to forget about you and check out the latest and greatest.
    That is a good question. I've been eligible for a device upgrade from my carrier since June 2011. I have no idea what I'll get or how long I'll wait. However, an OS 7 device does not appeal to me, since it will be very much obsolete before a new 2-year contract ends. I doubt if I'll be able to tolerate the 9700 for almost another year. What I end up getting is yet to be determined.
    01-01-12 01:53 PM
  23. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    People are making money on ad revenue in the Google store. Purchases are problematic.

    RIM hasn't published any official numbers for their app sotre. The only statistic I've seen is a survey of people who are in the RIM store saying that 3/10 of the respondents did 6-figures.

    That's 3/10 who are actually in the RIM store. People on this board are extrapolating that into total sales, which is some interesting math with which I'm not familiar.

    RIM is being very cagey with actual numbers. We've asked 4 times now.
    Ad supported apps will never make money on Blackberry simply because you can block the ads as soon as you download the app.

    I would much rather pay for apps and I have spent over 100 on them(some for me, some for others)

    Bottom line, you've been on this forum long enough to get a clear picture, are you going to develop for BBOS? Otherwise you're just talk, I don't need to talk to a developer that has no interest in developing for BB, build an app and if it's good and I need it I will buy it.

    After all, a good builder never blames the tools no?

    Plenty amazing apps in Appworld, so obviously it can be done
    01-01-12 01:59 PM
  24. app_Developer's Avatar

    Bottom line, you've been on this forum long enough to get a clear picture, are you going to develop for BBOS? Otherwise you're just talk, I don't need to talk to a developer that has no interest in developing for BB, build an app and if it's good and I need it I will buy it.

    After all, a good builder never blames the tools no?

    Plenty amazing apps in Appworld, so obviously it can be done
    I'm very interested in making my own native apps for BB10 and PB when a native UI framework is available (hopefully next month?). I'm not an immersive game developer, so the APIs available for that are not applicable to my own work. And I'm not interested in making an Air app, I'm a native developer (Objective-C, C++, and Java) on iOS and Android.

    As for our clients and the company as a whole, they will be interested if and when RIM turns things around. I do hope BB10 does that.
    01-01-12 02:09 PM
  25. sam_b77's Avatar
    you'll notice I said if we forget to ask. Of course if we remember we can just ask. But lives are busy, we don't always remember everything every day. That's where computers can be helpful, especially if we carry them with us.



    Wow, 5 million. That's like, what, 8 days worth of new Android activations worldwide?

    What do you expect that number to be this quarter?
    In one of your earlier posts you had mentioned that RIM's numbers are due to selling cheap phones at lower margins and didn't add as much revenue. I agree with what you said.

    However the 5 million Android activations are in the same boat as RIM selling cheap curves. You mentioned worldwide, then you can get a cheap Android for less than $70 without plan in India. This is typically made by Indian companies like MicroMax and Karbonn. The people who buy these phones don't activate data plans and would not even dream of spending $2 on Apps. So Google earns nothing from the OS sale as its Open Source, the buyers are not buying anything on Android Market, so that kills any secondary Revenue Stream for Google and since thee buyers don't have a data plan that basically kills off any ad stream revenue.
    Also developers don't make any money from these sales as well. No data=No Android Market= no revenue for developers.

    So while selling cheap Curves reduces RIM's bottom line and is wrong according to you, this statistic of selling 5 million phones without generating any revenue is good?
    Why should RIM or Apple even care about these millions of activations of Android?

    Sure, google has deep pockets but it won't be long when people will realise the hollowness of these sales. They are just enabling cheap phone makers sell an OS which they couldn't have made themselves.
    spike12 and Laura Knotek like this.
    01-01-12 02:18 PM
135 ... 23456
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD