[belfastdispatcher]

That wouldn't be so bad to have Windows Phone market share if they had MSFT type resources. They don't.

It goes to show then that all the resources in the world doesn't make a good phone Microsoft would've done it by now, they've been in it since the beginning.

[Laura Knotek]

There's no way of knowing until the product is on shelves, people vote with their wallets.

Rim only dominated the smartphone market in North America, in the rest of the world they're going up and up. There was no falling from grace over here as they were never the leader, it's a slow upwards movement. So we have a different perspective.

What is clear is that USA needs a different product from Rim compared to the rest of the world.

In the end the "smartphone" market it's just a made up thing, it doesn't really exist as they're all mobile phones. it would be better to call it "luxury phone market"

The platform that formerly dominated in Europe was Symbian, which is all but dead now. Nokia does not appear to be benefiting from their partnership with Microsoft so far. Ericsson's joint venture with Sony is not doing well either.

[belfastdispatcher]

The platform that formerly dominated in Europe was Symbian, which is all but dead now. Nokia does not appear to be benefiting from their partnership with Microsoft so far. Ericsson's joint venture with Sony is not doing well either.

Symbian is far from dead, it powers all Nokia's so called "feature phones" still, which begs the question, how come they're not "smartphones"?

Winmo also used to be very popular in Europe.

http://mobilesyrup.com/2011/12/30/sy...ndroid-surged/

[app_Developer]

...which begs the question, how come they're not "smartphones"?

Because they are cheap, low margin phones. Nokia cannot survive selling symbian phones, especially as the Indian and Chinese feature phones companies are now ready to come on strong in 2012. Will resellers and carriers buy a Nokia feature phone for $25, when they can buy a Chinese or Indian one for $15 and make a higher profit? Probably not. That end of the market is a commodity market now, and these companies don't sell direct. So that is a race to the bottom, as we've seen in TVs and landline phones, computers, calculators, and every other business over time.

This is why Nokia are moving as quickly as they can to save themselves by going with a whole new high end OS. Just like RIM is also trying to save themselves by going with a whole new high end OS.

The only difference being that RIM decided to take a kernel and build the whole rest of the stack themselves. Nokia chose to take a complete OS and all the dev tools, but of course they don't control any of it. On the other hands, Nokia is able to ship their new phones a full year ahead of RIM because they have a complete OS.

So it will be interesting to see which strategy works better and which of the two will still be around as an independent company in 2013.

[belfastdispatcher]

Because they are cheap, low margin phones. Nokia cannot survive selling symbian phones, especially as the Indian and Chinese feature phones companies are now ready to come on strong in 2012. Will resellers and carriers buy a Nokia feature phone for $25, when they can buy a Chinese or Indian one for $15 and make a higher profit? Probably not. That end of the market is a commodity market, and these companies don't sell direct.

This is why Nokia are moving as quickly as they can to save themselves by going with a whole new high end OS. Just like RIM is also trying to save themselves by going with a whole new high end OS.

The only difference being that RIM decided to take a kernel and build the whole rest of the stack themselves. Nokia chose to take a complete OS and all the dev tools, but of course they don't control any of it. On the other hands, Nokia is able to ship their new phones a full year ahead of RIM.

So it will be interesting to see which strategy works better and which of the two will still be around as an independent company in 2013.

So they're not smart because they're cheap? That doesn't make any sense, Smartphones are supposed to be mobile phones capable of installing and running apps. Symbian can definitely do that.

Globally symbian is still number one.

[pfe1223]

I've made the comparison between RIM and Symbian several times, but here it goes again. Nokia saw the writing on the wall and decided to transition to Windows Phone because a successful platform is composed of hardware, software, and an ecosystem. RIM has good (albeit specialized) hardware, BBX represents the software of the future, but what about the ecosystem? They don't have one, and I think this is the biggest obstacle to future success. Can they afford to build their own ecosystem, this also includes fixing the mistakes that come from developing such a complex system? Can RIM afford to spend all the time it takes to secure distribution rights for music, movies, and TV shows? Or does RIM partner with other experienced companies to have a fully functioning ecosystem by the time BBX devices drop?

[app_Developer]

So they're not smart because they're cheap? That doesn't make any sense, Smartphones are supposed to be mobile phones capable of installing and running apps. Symbian can definitely do that.

Globally symbian is still number one.

Your getting caught up in the literal meaning of these words that we apply to markets. From a business perspective, you look at markets by their common terms. If you are an investor, you want to know what markets each company is operating in. It helps when people use the same general terms in their analysis (just like in any other field. How do you define "soft drink" for example, or "fast food"?)

It doesn't matter what your definition of "smart" is. And of course, feature sets change over time. But from a business perspective, or an investment perspective, what we refer to as the "feature phone" market is that low end phone market that is increasingly going to cheap Asian manufacturers.

You're looking at Symbian numbers today. Investors don't look at what happened in 2011. They are looking (correctly) at what is going to happen in 2012 and 2013.

Have you seen Nokia financials? Being the biggest maker of phones last year or the year before isn't helping them a bit. Which is why Elop was right to say that they were on a burning platform. That's what he meant. Nokia slipped into this morass of the low end phone business, and lost all of their high profit lines. That is a deadly shift for a company like theirs.

In judging the health of a company, and making a proper investment decision, you have to look forward. Canadian and Finnish companies can't survive a battle to the bottom (price) with Asian suppliers. Especially not companies with sizable R&D, paying Canadian and Finnish salaries.

Let me ask you this, with Nokia selling so many Symbian phones at the moment, do you think Nokia is a company that is healthy?

You seem to think RIM is not in trouble. Would you say that Nokia is also not in trouble?

[Laura Knotek]

Because they are cheap, low margin phones. Nokia cannot survive selling symbian phones, especially as the Indian and Chinese feature phones companies are now ready to come on strong in 2012. Will resellers and carriers buy a Nokia feature phone for $25, when they can buy a Chinese or Indian one for $15 and make a higher profit? Probably not. That end of the market is a commodity market now, and these companies don't sell direct. So that is a race to the bottom, as we've seen in TVs and landline phones, computers, calculators, and every other business over time.

This is why Nokia are moving as quickly as they can to save themselves by going with a whole new high end OS. Just like RIM is also trying to save themselves by going with a whole new high end OS.

The only difference being that RIM decided to take a kernel and build the whole rest of the stack themselves. Nokia chose to take a complete OS and all the dev tools, but of course they don't control any of it. On the other hands, Nokia is able to ship their new phones a full year ahead of RIM because they have a complete OS.

So it will be interesting to see which strategy works better and which of the two will still be around as an independent company in 2013.

So they're not smart because they're cheap? That doesn't make any sense, Smartphones are supposed to be mobile phones capable of installing and running apps. Symbian can definitely do that.

Globally symbian is still number one.

From an interesting article here:

Mopping up after Symbian is where Microsoft's purchase of Nokia�did I say that out loud?�comes into play, and Nokia CEO Stephen Elop has talked about converting Symbian fans into Windows Phone owners several times.

In much of Asia and Africa, especially, phones are sold independently of their carriers�that's one reason dual-SIM phones sell so well in places like India. So Microsoft/Nokia�let's call it MiKia�starts to look a lot more like Apple. MiKia now controls the OS, MiKia controls the OEM, the carrier isn't terribly relevant in the process, and�the real kicker�MiKia has a huge network of retailers in those countries.

The persistence of Symbian, a dying OS, is going to create a vacuum in Asia and Africa over the next few years. A lot of that vacuum will be sucked up by cheap Android phones, especially in places like China where domestic manufacturers are popping them out like gumball-machine toys. But with a good OS to OEM to retailer link and a void to fill, MiKia at least has a chance among those 3 billion-plus consumers.

[Economist101]

Globally symbian is still number one.

In terms of market share, yes. The problem is that Nokia reported 100+ million devices sold just in its last quarter, yet posted a net loss. Remember, market share is not the goal, profit is, and market share without profit makes you Nokia.

[JAGWIRE]

wow this thread has gott'n pretty heated...i'm not an economist ill say that right off the bat. i didn't go to business school or have any degrees so this is all my opinion on what ive read on this site, many others and what I've see with my own two eyes.

RIM's stock did take a huge hit they day they announced the PB sales for the first time. got my info from typing RIMM into Google and going to the stock market the day they released the news and saw a HUGE drop.

The BB7 phones are nice, they got decent chips in them, good screen res. but you can get a better phone out there for less. go to any of the Big Three and check it out BB7s are selling for 600$ while you can get a brand new Android with far superior specs for 550$ or 500$, and in a recession who doesn't want to save 100$.

Does BB still have a following? YES. check out their FB page that is always growing or the new members that pop up on here ALLL the time.

Advertising. Before it sucked! and now look at em. two beautifully done 'BeBold' commercials and the main supporter for the biggest show on during new years!!

all I'm saying is that you don't need to be a economist or have a degree in anything to know that RIMM isn't out yet and they are going to go down fighting if it happens

all im doing/saying here is sticking to the main topic of the thread and thats being tired of ppl saying RIM needs "saving" and that they havnt rolled over and played dead yet.

[Moonbase0ne]

Does RIM need saving?

Are you asking this question from the perspective of an investor or from the perspective of a fan of the company and their products?




War Is All We Know

[EXDetonator]

RIM is falling behind, and they do need saving. The fact that they're consistently losing market share means they are definately falling behind. I dont think RIM will die though, there was a point when every third phone i saw was a blackberry. They did it once, they can do it again.

[CDM76]

the next year subway make $300,000 dollars and you make $150,000 dollars. Oh no, your market share has dropped from 100% to 50%

Actually. your market share is now 33%. However, I get your point. Really it depends what numbers /stats are used as numbers and stats can be twisted and manipulated however people want. Are you looking at USA, North America, Asia, World numbers ?

USA numbers ARE on decline. World numbers are increasing. RIM just needs to learn better marketing and better media manipulation before things get out of control (if they aren't already).

CDM

[[email protected]]

Does RIM need saving?

Are you asking this question from the perspective of an investor or from the perspective of a fan of the company and their products?




War Is All We Know

I feel your question gets right to the heart of the matter. I would say the majority of folks who feel R.I.M is on the right track have not lost 75% of their investment in the Company's stock.

If the $100 invested in Jan was now worth $25, I sincerely feel the sentiment would be drastically different. It becomes a much more 'At Home' issue.

When your only investment is the phone in your pocket, it's very easy to say that R.I.M needs to be given more time.

Harder if your pension, college savings plan(for the kids) and general investment funds had been bullish on R.I.M.

I don't own R.I.M. But I do own two playbooks.

[boldkeyboardholic]

rim is indeed i big trouble. it's OSes leaks the nessasery standard enviroment everybody wants in at least some way. for me skype and free navigation software is missing. and worse !!! with os 4.x on my old bold i had an navi but it never was released for os 5 not thinking about apps for os 7. or wifi hotspot: still not there/os7.1 is not really available and you are completely in the hands of your carrier - even a 100 eur android has this easily since two years.

for example i got me a playbook and love the os!!! but still can not decide if i keep it as i'm missing the same apps i'm missing on my 9900 .


rim has done so many wrong decision and are just to slow. the market is lot faster than rim but rim needs to keep up. instead they going further behind. it does almost make me angry as i am really wish to use the devices in the future but honestly i doubt it at the moment that i will when my 9900 need to go in retirement and i'm using bb's since 2004/ 6230!

[boldkeyboardholic]

Actually. your market share is now 33%. However, I get your point. Really it depends what numbers /stats are used as numbers and stats can be twisted and manipulated however people want. Are you looking at USA, North America, Asia, World numbers ?

USA numbers ARE on decline. World numbers are increasing. RIM just needs to learn better marketing and better media manipulation before things get out of control (if they aren't already).

CDM

thats so true and of course thing things through and not releasing playbook whats is more a supporting device for bbs but marketing it big as normal tablet. no wonder the media is dissing the playbook. no wait to feb . but will it get really better? bbten or what it is called by then late 2012 is a huge problem, but the real prob is the apps situation. here where i live i can get ios or android apps from carrier or third companies like coffeeshopns etc, but no or disctinued support for bb os...

[highos]

Are you asking this question from the perspective of an investor or from the perspective of a fan of the company and their products?

Very interesting point! If you are an Investor when RIM was $70 10 months ago and you were still an Investor when RIM's stock started falling like crazy and you lost a ton in the process... well you're the last person anyone should be listening to when it comes to financial decisions. You're track record is just as bad as RIM's current leadership!!!

When you make financial investments you should be making them based upon how they can perform over time for you. If you stuck with a stock that went from a quite reasonable level to then trading below book value you have no one to blame but yourself.

I don't give a crap if you believe in a product or have loyalties to a brand-you're just being insane and should let someone else manage your money for you before you lose it all.

Are you someone buying into the stock when it's been trading low? Well then you probably aren't that negative about the company unless you have some other reason for it-like trying to get the company split up or wanting it to be bought out by someone and you're hoping to cash in on it when it all goes down. You don't have loyalties to the company or preferences-you just see an opportunity to make a quick buck given their situation. You're taking a risk-but it's a calculate risk based upon facts and not being driven by faith.

Personally? I'm not an Investor... for a reason. I think anyone trading tech stocks enjoys being part of legalized gambling where the biggest criteria is akin to an giant popularity contest.

I'm a firm believer that BlackBerry does have a bright future in their new platform. It has great potential, however they have issues and they need to sort them out-and Investors are the most short sighted and fickle people you will ever see and they began seeing the writing on the wall and dropped RIMM for that reason-hence began the snowball effect and this is where we are now. Gotta love it!

Anyways-Enjoy some 3AM ramblings. You guys keep me so entertained and it's interesting seeing how... tied you all believe investors are with a companies products when reality is usually far from the truth.

[Unsure2]

It's interesting to me that some Canadians are silly enough to think that Americans are somehow biased against RIM because it is a Canadian company. Most Americans don't know or don't give a hoot that RIM is Canadian. The first rule of an open stock market is that all available information is priced into the market. Here, for whatever reason, the market thinks RIM is in trouble. It's price has gone waaaaay down, to the point that Amazon and other vultures are interested in a takeover. That's the reality. Now, if you think RIM is going to bounce back, go ahead and buy RIM stock. You might even be right. But, don't kid yourself; you will be gambling...

[kevinnugent]

How is this a conspiracy? To quote the author who IS a BB user:


"Eventually I’ll likely end up giving up my BlackBerry because as my friend and former Forbes colleague Tyler McKee would always remind me, “Research In Motion is a dying company.” Tyler has an iPhone."

[belfastdispatcher]

How is this a conspiracy? To quote the author who IS a BB user:


"Eventually I�ll likely end up giving up my BlackBerry because as my friend and former Forbes colleague Tyler McKee would always remind me, �Research In Motion is a dying company.� Tyler has an iPhone."

Clearly you don't get sarcasm lol, which is what she was doing.

[kevinnugent]

And you can tell she was being sarcastic how? ESP?

[belfastdispatcher]

And you can tell she was being sarcastic how? ESP?

I live in the most sarcastic country in the world lol, read it again and read between the lines, then it will make sense.

[13echo4]

Let me try to summarize the issues again:
Two, over time people won't buy the device that isn't compatible with the other products they buy. So that's why market share matters.

So you for see hardware and software devs in the future making products not compatible with blackberrys? Come on now. Blackberrys are more compatible with other devices then anything out there.
Blackberry are friendly with pc media software and like explorer. It'll transfer files with anything that follows simple ftp thru cabled of bluetooth methods. Without 3 party software. Android does a fair job of playing nice with others. Still sometimes it can be a pita.
True software for blackberrys is small in relation. Butttt, well let's take bbsak for example. Its free and does a dang good job. We all know why it came around. How is a dev going to improve that and makep. money. No body is going to buy the app when bbsak is free. Most people are going to donate money to bbsak. I do every time I upgrade. Just me though. What I'm saying is there's not a list as long as your leg for every utility and app for the blackberry but what we have works better than what's on the other platforms in my opinion anyway.
You don't see to have faith in the fact that there's going to be people getting bored an leaving the other platforms to come to blackberry or the ones that left coming back. I've heard several say they went to another platform as a business device and they didn't like it and had to come back.
It can't be denied that Rim is making money. It might not be the money they could be making.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[JAGWIRE]

i agree with the people coming back idea. My brother is the one that really got me into BB and now he has given up on the brand. His main reason being is their lack of trust as a company and the fact that they are sooooo far behind in the tech race(you can buy a far better spec. wise phone for about the same or cheaper then the OS7 ones).

I agree with both his points but i see RIM trying to prove people wrong and build their rep back up. first case is that they said they are going to advertise(FINALLY!!) and they have commercials out and they sponsored one of the most watched specials, not real fact just thinking it is... they have yet to make a second case so hopefully they will soon.

[app_Developer]

So you for see hardware and software devs in the future making products not compatible with blackberrys? Come on now. Blackberrys are more compatible with other devices then anything out there.

Apps. We've been over this on the board before many times. But have you noticed that many airlines, grocery stores, restaurants, banks and services and even governments have apps for their customers now? Some support 3 or 4 platforms, but most support just two now. American customers are starting to notice that, others will too if RIM doesn't get developers back quickly.

I was at a museum in London this summer that had an absolutely gorgeous photography app that you could download as you were leaving. Of course it only supported iPhone and Android. Not even a mention of Blackberry.

These are the types of things that RIM customers will miss as developers lose interest in the platform. And again, this is why BB10 is so important.

And hardware accessories have just started. The last several hotels where I've stayed have iPod/iPhone radio docks conveniently next to the bed. My car has an iPhone connector in it, and my apps even display on screen now. My last car had an iPhone connector and could control the iPhone playlists from the steering wheel.

I have an app that alerts me when my children forget to brush their teeth or take their vitamins in case we ever forget to ask (monitors the tray that hold their brushes). I have an app to quickly (couple of taps) tape a game or TV show from the bus if I forget to do so. Again, the service I use doesnt support blackberry, just Android and iPhone. Same decision taken by my bank, every restaurant I go to, the local farmer's market, the local Chipotle, the buses here, airport transportation, the parking system, and even the Internal Revenue Service.

We're working on a beautiful app for tourists to NY right now. And another app for in-store purchases as a major retailer. Neither client has even asked us about blackberry. The working assumption is we'll discuss that with them after we see how BB10 goes. Oddly enough, we are doing a Windows 7 version because Microsoft has a promotion deal with them.

So this is what I mean by compatible. Every time a user sees a sign that says "download our app to save waiting in line here" or "download our app to use this great feature we built for you", they have to look at the their BB phone and say "oh, right, that won't work with my phone".