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10-09-13 12:58 PM
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  1. cgk's Avatar
    The problem with your thinking is that they price themselves as a Premium model now and no one is buying them.
    Plus BBRY's documents clear indicate that the majority of their customers aren't premium customers - they are people at the low-end, mainly on pre-paid plans.

    The decrease in service revenue is primarily attributable to a lower number of BlackBerry users and lower revenue from those users compared to the second quarter of fiscal 2013, and the Q2 Venezuela Service
    Revenue Deferral.

    The decrease also resulted from a continued shift in the mix of the Company’s customers from higher-tiered unlimited plans to prepaid and lower-tiered plans as well as pricing reduction programs implemented by the Company to maintain the customer base.
    So not only are BBRY's customers low-end, they have to provide more and more incentives to keep them (as they compete against cheap android devices).
    10-04-13 11:47 AM
  2. Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes's Avatar
    Very foolish comparison, let alone the car company chosen
    10-04-13 11:48 AM
  3. 93Aero's Avatar
    Me thinks a German and an American would have totally different opinions.
    10-04-13 11:48 AM
  4. Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes's Avatar
    Me thinks a German and an American would have totally different opinions.
    Please expand
    10-04-13 11:51 AM
  5. VaderZ10's Avatar
    Your problem is that you think that YOU and a few others buying BBs are SMART, and that the 98+% of consumers who are buying something else are too STUIPID to know any better. You also think that YOUR needs and usage patterns and priorities are the ONLY ones that are important for EVERYONE. You are so myopic and self-centered that you simply can't understand why the company you love so much is about to exit the business.

    Are you seriously gonna argue the point that most consumers are educated about the products they buy, especially phone???

    I'm not saying people are stupid, but most don't have nearly the vested interest or knowledge that say, you an I share.

    I can confidently say that in my experience.....70% of consumers of smartphones have little or no knowledge beyond media and word of mouth.

    Meanwhile, all of those "stupid" people are laughing at your expense and enjoying the entertainment you're providing them.

    You'll find that when you think EVERYONE ELSE is stupid, but YOU keep getting it wrong again and again, it might just be YOU who is the stupid one. I'm just saying...
    10-04-13 11:53 AM
  6. kbz1960's Avatar
    My point is that BlackBerry should focus on the premium. They have made premium devices in the past and I think trying to cater to the masses is a mistake right now. Go Enterprise, go high end. Whether you use the luxury car analogy, the high end home stereo industry, or whatever product you want that has a premium tier. Smartphones don't have a true "premium" tier, which I think BlackBerry should go after. Quality over quantity.
    If BBRY are going to go for premium then have to start using the latest hardware and materials, when exactly did they ever do that?

    Also you can't compare high end low end of something that is a lesser product than the other competition offers at a lower price.
    10-04-13 11:55 AM
  7. blackhawksfan75's Avatar
    Porsche is a luxury item, which has always been catered to that type of market. I hardly view BlackBerry devices as luxury items.
    10-04-13 11:55 AM
  8. VaderZ10's Avatar
    your analogy compares BBRY to Porsche (which, if memory serves is owned by Volkswagen) SO even if we compartmentalize and deal with Porsche on on it's own, are you talking about the commercial vehicle sales or the motorsport aspect? In either case, the car is part of a larger enviroment that encompases cars by other manufacturers.. They all require a power source for their engine and a road to drive on. The difference with cell phones (smartphones in particular) is that they require an ecosystem (to use the most prevalent term) to function in which is driven by their OS but is populated by apps. All cars play by the same rules in the same general sandbox.. You may not want or need apps but the fact of the matter is that you are in the minority. The public 'needs' their apps (i'm not getting into the difference between wanting and needing..) so without the apps, the public will not buy the devices which will not entice the developers to develop the apps which results in less users (insert cyclical pattern here) which results in a company with no sales, no money and limited life span. And don't confuse yourself, every ecosystem is built differently and they are all closed systems. Getting your information or data out of the BBRY ecosystem isn't that much different of a process than getting the info out of Apples sandbox or samsungs. To try and strain and make your analogy fit.. go grab the transmission from your kia and drop it into your Porsche then let us all know how it works out.

    The profit margins are razer thin in the mobile device market and the companies that do best are the ones that can write down their losses and/or missed opportunities against the revanues from their other sectors. Cars and phones are nothing alike, the industries are nothing alike and if BBRY wanted to get into the luxury handset business then they should have been a software company with little to no overhead, partnered up with the folks at Porsche design and provide a custom GUI for a customized cell phone to the 'elite' market. They can't continue to produce handsets at premium prices and continue as a company. The fell asleep at the wheel years ago when upper management was trying to get a hockey team in Hamilton instead of figuring out what was happening in the market space they created.
    I agree with many of your assertions. I would argue that all phones play by the same rules in the same sandbox. They all use the same networks and carriers, they all are bound by limited battery life and tied to electricity. It's the whistles and bells. If I want to purchase music I do not want to be tied to iTunes on my phone. I can navigate to many sites on my BlackBerry and purchase/download music straight to my device. Glorious no DRM, free range music! And I can transfer that song to my other devices with ease. Apple has handcuffed it's users to some extent, and although they have loosened the shackles in recent time there are many people still bound to their media collections that can't easily migrate from Apple.

    If you keep a prisoner bound for long enough they will eventually just accept their reality and you can remove the chains without fear of them escaping. Throw in a healthy dose of Stockholm Syndrome and now you're cookin' with Jobs!!!
    10-04-13 12:02 PM
  9. LP_Rigg's Avatar
    If you have spent any time actually using phones in other ecosystems you will see that your analogy does not hold up.

    Performance cars have more powerful engines and optimized suspensions. BlackBerry phones tend to have older slower processors and lower resolution displays.

    An OS is not everything. I like bb10 over iOS and Android but there are other things to think about. Yes. Apps are included in that equation too.

    Posted via CB10
    Good point, but it should be also noted that new technology can get more HP in a 4 cylinder than old V8's.

    New Ford V6 engines in their trucks out perform there previous generation V8's.

    Technology can be optimized in a variety of ways.
    10-04-13 12:05 PM
  10. u4ria's Avatar
    There are many flaws in your comparison. Let's list a few of them:

    1. Porsche is the world's most profitable car maker in the world. They earned an average $22,000 USD per car sold. BlackBerry comes nowhere close to making that kind of money per handheld sold.

    2. Porsche revolutionized the industry several times. First with the 911, then then 911 Turbo, then the Panamera, and now with the 918. What's the last BlackBerry device that revolutionized the mobile industry and set every other competitor on notice?

    3. Porsche listens to its customers and gives them what they want. You want different paint colours? Sure, you can have that. Look at the exhaustive list of options that are available on a Porsche. BlackBerry users want customizable notifications. What does BlackBerry do? They take that option away! Users want lower/more competitive prices for non premium devices. What does BlackBerry do? Ignore that and charges $700 for a Z30!

    4. Porsches are high performance, typically top of the line sports cars. You cannot say the same for BlackBerry phones compared to iPhone and Android devices in terms of specs, performance, and app selection.

    5. There is a huge demand for Porsche vehicles. They can't make enough of them to satisfy the demand.

    6. Most importantly, perception. Porsche is perceived as a high performance, luxury brand. They have the goods to back it up, along with the pricing to go with it. BlackBerry has none of this, and the public perception of them is almost like that of the Hyundai Pony back in the mid 80s!
    JeepBB, MERCDROID, Etios and 2 others like this.
    10-04-13 12:07 PM
  11. Wiki Cydia's Avatar
    I agree with many of your assertions. I would argue that all phones play by the same rules in the same sandbox. They all use the same networks and carriers, they all are bound by limited battery life and tied to electricity. It's the whistles and bells. If I want to purchase music I do not want to be tied to iTunes on my phone. I can navigate to many sites on my BlackBerry and purchase/download music straight to my device. Glorious no DRM, free range music! And I can transfer that song to my other devices with ease. Apple has handcuffed it's users to some extent, and although they have loosened the shackles in recent time there are many people still bound to their media collections that can't easily migrate from Apple.

    If you keep a prisoner bound for long enough they will eventually just accept their reality and you can remove the chains without fear of them escaping. Throw in a healthy dose of Stockholm Syndrome and now you're cookin' with Jobs!!!
    I could have made similar arguments when BBRY devices were shipping without wi-fi and cameras. "But I WANT to use wi-fi! I WANT to take pictures! Stop holding me prisoner!" Yeah, that sounds silly. Sounds great coming from you though! (Sorry, Caddyshack moment there at the end.)
    10-04-13 12:10 PM
  12. paper_monkey's Avatar
    BlackBerry has none of this, and the public perception of them is almost like that of the Hyundai Pony back in the mid 80s!
    DUDE!! uncool. You leave the Pony out of this. What did that poor little Pony ever do to you???
    Terser Nori likes this.
    10-04-13 12:12 PM
  13. draconis123's Avatar
    Porsche is still making money. Unlike BlackBerry.

    Posted via CB10
    10-04-13 12:15 PM
  14. Wiki Cydia's Avatar
    1. Porsche is the world's most profitable car maker in the world. They earned an average $22,000 USD per car sold. BlackBerry comes nowhere close to making that kind of money per handheld sold.
    Yes and no. I mean, obviously BBRY isn't making $22K per device, but if you look at their profit per device in their best years, they likely have a larger percentage profit per device than Porsche does. I'm not disputing your point, but I think there are multiple ways to view that number.
    10-04-13 12:18 PM
  15. scribacco's Avatar
    Your problem is that you think that YOU and a few others buying BBs are SMART, and that the 98+% of consumers who are buying something else are too STUIPID to know any better. You also think that YOUR needs and usage patterns and priorities are the ONLY ones that are important for EVERYONE. You are so myopic and self-centered that you simply can't understand why the company you love so much is about to exit the business.

    Meanwhile, all of those "stupid" people are laughing at your expense and enjoying the entertainment you're providing them.

    You'll find that when you think EVERYONE ELSE is stupid, but YOU keep getting it wrong again and again, it might just be YOU who is the stupid one. I'm just saying...
    Now they added the word "prosumer" so they can feel special and differentiate themselves..it amazes me how some users are out of touch and perhaps do not know that most people out there dislike more Blackberry USERS than Blackberry as a company because of their stupid attitude.
    Saiga, Etios, Ragwan and 3 others like this.
    10-04-13 12:20 PM
  16. scribacco's Avatar
    Porsche is a luxury item, which has always been catered to that type of market. I hardly view BlackBerry devices as luxury items.
    Not really since some Porsche models are $40,000..Bentley, Ferrari, Rolls are true luxury brands because none of their models is priced at low-mid range.
    10-04-13 12:24 PM
  17. bekkay's Avatar
    Same uninformed analogy from CrackBerry forum users who don't understand economics and network externalities in particular.

    Over and over again.
    10-04-13 12:25 PM
  18. eBud's Avatar
    My concern would be if at&t was still going to push OS updates to my Z10. If they eventually discontinue selling them (like Rogers) what interest would they have in maintaining them? End of life for BB since vendors (unlike iPhone) are in control of OS distribution to customers...?

    Dead Berry Walking...
    10-04-13 12:32 PM
  19. Mr. Marco's Avatar
    I see where you're going with this thread, but I don't think the comparison really works here. Porsche is a niche vehicle. They are premium sports cars. Porsche really competes in a whole different market than Chevy does.

    Blackberry was competing directly with Apple and Samsung. Blackberry at one time did have a niche market, and that was the business user side. But somewhere in 2009 and in 2010 IT departments opened things up to other devices. Many mega corporations have iPhones and Android devices accessing their servers now. Blackberry became stale.

    let's not all forget that you could have an iPhone on contract for $199 whereas a Blackberry Bold would be $250. And that's an iPhone with all its glass and precision cut aluminum and all that, plus access to the entire app ecosystem.
    richardat likes this.
    10-04-13 12:32 PM
  20. bekkay's Avatar
    I see where you're going with this thread, but I don't think the comparison really works here. Porsche is a niche vehicle. They are premium sports cars. Porsche really competes in a whole different market than Chevy does.

    Blackberry was competing directly with Apple and Samsung. Blackberry at one time did have a niche market, and that was the business user side. But somewhere in 2009 and in 2010 IT departments opened things up to other devices. Many mega corporations have iPhones and Android devices accessing their servers now. Blackberry became stale.
    Add that, in the smartphone/platform market, one cannot compete without a strong ecosystem. And an ecosystem is dependent on the size of the userbase.

    In other words, Porsche would not be able to survive in a platform/ecosystem market.
    10-04-13 12:37 PM
  21. Mr. Marco's Avatar
    I already pointed out that not making a product because there are others already making such a product is ridiculous. While my essay was specifically about the stupidity of claiming BB10 is too little, too late, my points are valid in the context of this discussion. See it here:
    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...-argue-791325/
    You might say BB 10 too little, too late is stupidity, EXCEPT for the fact that Thorsten Heins has publicly come out to basically say BB 10 and devices fell flat on their faces. What is there left to argue when the CEO comes out to say that?
    richardat likes this.
    10-04-13 12:40 PM
  22. M65c02's Avatar
    People refer to the companies stock performance as a sole determining factor of whether it's a good product, or if people like it. You need to be able to separate BlackBerry from BBRY. A company's performance on the stock market often has little to do with their quality of product. The stock market has too many people trying to sway opinion to make them money, not a fair representation at all.
    Blackberry has a lot more problems than the stock price. The stock price is simply reflects the real problems. I'm pretty sure Rogers didn't care what the stock price was. They didn't like the Z30 for some reason.
    Yes, the Rogers annoucement pretty much puts a fork in our BB's future, as we had known and loved. Although surely not the OPs main message, his point is correct if it is taken to mean the BB can only survive if it adopts a new market concept--one of those gross understatements under the circumstances. If on a respirator after September's annoucement, the plug has now been pulled on the OS10 path , at least under any reasonable interpretation of its present consumer market.

    Cars are not phones. All cars share the same "ecosystem" (the road network), so no car has any advantage over another ecosystem-wise. And even the biggest car companies (GM and Toyota) only have 10% or less of the market.

    Porsche is a premium product that is produced by order at a premium price. They have a business model that has proven to be successful.
    Smartphones can't be considered "premium" unless they have a premium ECOSYSTEM. They rely on third-parties to make apps, and those third-parties won't make apps unless the phone OS has significant marketshare, a situation that cars DO NOT SHARE in any way. Also, customers expect there to be tablets and other accessories available running the same OS, and able to run the same apps. BB doesn't have those; everyone else does.

    BB isn't competing in the auto market, or in the featurephone market. They're in the SMARTPHONE market, and that market comes with a HUGE number of facets that all have to be in place in order to succeed when you have an independent OS/ecosystem, and BB fails in almost every category in this market. Remember, BB *chose* this path, and then spent 5 years failing to execute at every single turn. That will kill ANY company; they're lucky to have survived this long, given their long string of mistakes and failures to execute their own plans.
    A few cars have advantages, dependant on different qualities of road as found throughout the world, but in general poster is correct when he points to the (vast) difference in the ecosystems of cars vs. smartphones.
    It depends on how you define "accurate," since. . .
    Porsche doesn't have to worry about developer interest in its platform. [Edit: Well, knowing high-end cars myself, there's enough worry here to keep Porsche innovating.]
    Porsche isn't losing money.
    Porsche isn't writing down inventory.
    Porsche isn't for sale.
    Short and sweet, the OP analogy is breaking down fast.
    You can have your opinion, but the facts suggest that BB10 isn't competing well. So while your opinion is likely shared by millions of people, there aren't enough supporters to keep BBRY in a competitive position, which is why the company is selling itself for $9 a share.
    I agree but would change "opinion is shared by millions" to a couple million tops. I expect that there are less than 2mm (OS10 phones that don't otherwise own competitors phones). Most of these, then, are not staunch BB fans but rather curiosity seekers, forced to hold a company subscribed BB or just first-in-time consumers that buy many toys when 1st introduced. So, let's put that number at "2mm" max. (LOL) And, as indicated to the OP above and concurring with poster here, BB OS10 has no base to build on (i.e., less than 3/10 of one percent of mkt). BB must entirely remake itself to survive.

    I agree that BlackBerry's current device offerings are not "high performance machines". What I am saying is that I believe this is the direction BlackBerry should consider going. They are capable of it. and.... I have used, abused, destroyed and analyzed most devices out there in my profession. I am speaking from a position of experience not simply a casual consumer or BB fanboy. I have first hand experience.
    Okay, now you're starting to make some theoretical sense but from a practical side if BB sells for $9, or any price over perhaps $5-6, the acquirer is not going to put the capital to nearly completely retool the concept of BB--they'll sell-off what they can and try to rejuvenate a limping OS10. OP is talking about creating almost an entirely new company and, now, even after losing support in Canada.

    Neither an I sure where you get the "they are capable of it." Other than from eternal optimision taken from a recent seminar with "Tony Robbins," where did you come up with support for this statement. 1.5B other consumers (100% of the market) appear to disagree with your assessment. Better back it up with some very specific details rather than throw out such hyperbole.
    My whole point is that BlackBerry does not need to cater to the masses to be successful. Too many things today in society cater to the lowest common denominator. Our public schools won't allow failure and the brightest students are held back by a curriculum or classes that are dictated by the least adept. Our society celebrates mediocrity. SMH
    True, but its not catering to the non-masses either. .... Remember society is defined more by the average rather than the lowest or highest rung....so goes the consumer market. (Did you mean public schools "will" allow failure.)

    This "rant" of mine is more of a vision for where I want to see BlackBerry go, not a reflection of reality or current situations.
    Hey, I was following bits and pieces of your discussion but, here, you destroy your own points. Did you really insert the phrase "[My rant is] more of a vision for...Blackberry, not a reflection of reality..." and expect to continue with your contentions/arguments.

    I think of cars when I think of the analogue presented here:
    Attachment 207662
    It's rare that a single picture can summarize with such clarity!!

    Your problem is that you think that YOU and a few others buying BBs are SMART, and that the 98+% of consumers who are buying something else are too STUIPID to know any better. You also think that YOUR needs and usage patterns and priorities are the ONLY ones that are important for EVERYONE. You are so myopic and self-centered that you simply can't understand why the company you love so much is about to exit the business.
    ...
    You'll find that when you think EVERYONE ELSE is stupid, but YOU keep getting it wrong again and again, it might just be YOU who is the stupid one. I'm just saying...
    Troy was a bit tough on the OP here but he has a well intended point. Notwithstanding his sledge hammer, one does have to wonder what the real motives of some of these threads/posters might be. Surely, there is much delusion as to an understanding of the real needs of consumers and basic tenants of capitalism.

    There are many flaws in your comparison. Let's list a few of them:
    1. Porsche is the world's most profitable car maker in the world. They earned an average $22,000 USD per car sold. BlackBerry comes nowhere close to making that kind of money per handheld sold.
    2. Porsche revolutionized the industry several times. ... What's the last BlackBerry device that revolutionized the mobile industry ...?
    3. Porsche listens to its customers and gives them what they want. ... What does BlackBerry do? They take that option away! Users want lower/more competitive prices for non premium devices. What does BlackBerry do? Ignore that and charges $700 for a Z30!
    4. Porsches are high performance, typically top of the line sports cars. [Not true] for BlackBerry phones compared to iPhone and Android devices... .
    5. There is a huge demand for Porsche vehicles. They can't make enough of them to satisfy the demand.
    6. Most importantly, perception. Porsche is perceived as a high performance, luxury brand. .... BlackBerry has none of this, and the public perception of them is almost like that of the Hyundai back in the mid 80s! [Edit: But Hyundai met a price point for a market segment even in the 80s.]
    This last post is a good one to close this thread. Note item 6 in particular: If BB were perceived as a jeweled phone that could match the Droid and IOS phones for functionality but somehow found a niche among the very wealthy, I suppose it might theoretically survive selling 5mm phones a year for $2,000 each. Notwithstanding that the market for smart phones probably isn't ready for a super premium product, BB doesn't have the product technology nor current market image to generate demand to pursue such strategy.
    Last edited by M65c02; 10-04-13 at 01:53 PM.
    chr1sny likes this.
    10-04-13 12:47 PM
  23. BeautyEh's Avatar
    Most of you guys who are against this initial price are forgetting that Blackberry, like Apple, still wants to have at least ONE premium-tiered device. 5S, anyone ? Remember that the Z10 is getting "re-tiered" to a lower price point, also. Asking $700 off contract is not like they are asking $7000 or 7 million. It is barely, slightly higher than a more 'normally tiered' device. They believe they can sell at this price point, at least to start. Remember also that the price of any electronic device falls, rapidly actually. Within 3-6 months it might be drastically different. But if they start out low, there's really nowhere else to go for them.
    This is the right concept, also considering that *most* people buy a phone on a contract, for between 100-200 dollars plus the length of the contract. The off-contract price is for specialty buyers in most cases, aka, fans, "premium users", etc. I don't see how you guys can keep missing this.
    10-04-13 12:52 PM
  24. p51's Avatar
    If Porsche is losing a billion dollars a fiscal quarter, then my answer is YES

    Posted via CB10
    jvoisin and Etios like this.
    10-04-13 12:52 PM
  25. ankush77's Avatar
    But we have to understand that Apple also has not gone same way as Android for cheaper mobiles,it has its own space ,build for many years .
    My point is let BB go private and have limited hardware,but the quality should be up there with good or necessary app ecosystem.
    10-04-13 01:04 PM
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