[BoldtotheMax]

Besides my S1 (Biggest BB/RiM mistake ever!) I have had nothing but solid devices. 2 Pearls, 2 Curves and now a 9700. Never an OS issue, never a hardware issue...just works, time in and time out.

Like others said and one said it really well...it comes down to mass-producing, period. You will eventually have a bad batch and they unfortunately get out to us and some really have bad luck...granted some people will nit-pick on everything!

Also to the one guy/girl about the color leak...all 9700's do that...mine does it, my sister-in-laws does it, a good friends does it...all 3 different makes...Mexico, Hungarian(IIRC) and Canada....so....

By the way, I had to turn in my Cliq twice to get one that stayed booted...and wife has had a few issues with her OS on her mytouch, which was easy, but still....ish happens!

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[K Bear]

Good to know.... which enforces my point - sort of.

It'd be nice if there was a way to get a survey going, since CB doesn't *truly* represent the whole of RIM's demographics.

But from what i see there is far more 'problem' related threads in the last three years worth of devices, than those 'ancient ones'.

I mean, if anyone can answer the following. How much more reliable was your Pearl 81xx, Curve 83xx, 8800 than a far more recent 9x00/8900??

I think this would in fact demonstrate my point very clearly, those old devices [from what i see and noticed amongst my friends and local forums] were far more reliable and would fire up problem-free today, 4+ years later!

None of this app-error, SOS, sim failure, junk keyboards.

Then again, i must not blaim RIM entirely... it's gotta be hard going up against Apple to reintroduce and launch a product that tries to be trendier and 'cooler' than their iPhone competition. Which would explain the horrid apps and often 'weird' designs. IE. my 8800 & 9000 were the best keyboards i've ever used... All others felt 'different'. But the market demanded smaller sizes, nicer screen resolutions, etc.


Interesting...

Case in point, in the process of moving from T-Mobile to Sprint, I went back to my 8120. I've had my 8120 for 2 1/2 years. Yes the browser sucks, it lags, and the trackball gets stuck, but I can still do the very basics and type text with lightning speed. I could never use my 9700 like that. Lag is one thing, freezing up while loading simple web pages, not being able to use 3G when in a 3G, and the creme de la creme the 4 times in 4 months having the white screen of death was the end of the line for me. My 8120, as outdated as it is, is more reliable than my 9700 ever was.

[Xopher]

When I upgraded my 8830WE to a Tour, one of the first things I had issues with was the dreaded 522 error. Once I was updated from 4.7 to 5.0, those issues went away and I haven't had any problems with the 9630 since. It was just a bear waiting for the 5.0 update. Luckily, I didn't have any trackball issues with mine.

My Tour isn't my daily driver anymore, but every time I pick it up, it amazes me how solid it feels. It is still a good device, and I still use it for things. Both my 9630 and 8830 were solid devices. Hopefully future devices will be as good.

[kb5zht]

If I must pick one of the three options you listed, I would have to say under-engineering (does that term honestly exist?).

It's basically why VzW said "pass" on the storm 2.5 refresh. It's the main reason the users that have left bb for iphone or droids. The only other thing I could imagine is the number of apps (what does apple store have now? over 100,000?) but a user wouldn't find out something like that, in general, until he or she has really jumped into the smartphone pool and swam around for a little while.

Not enough modern hardware and poor software has a lot to do with it, in my honest opinion. Too many lags, too many spinning clocks/hour glasses, too many freeze-ups. Compared to the fast, lighting-smooth UI's that are available out there today, the generaly "clunky" feeling of a blackberry won't win over many people.

Most of us blackberry fans have been well rehearsed on the "playbook is around the corner, modern phones are on the way" song and dance but as weeks and months roll on and none of it has happened while at the same time the competition is putting products on the shelves. Where is that playbook, anyway? Yea I just saw another youtube video with the rim spokesperson showing it off. Tethered with a chain or a chord and not allowed in the consumer's hands.

[howarmat]

iOS has 300k and android is over 200k now i guess

[Daniel Ratcliffe]

Does BlackBerry even have 50k apps yet?

[howarmat]

the number is like 17K i think from a recent article but of course i cant find it right now

[Daniel Ratcliffe]

and THAT is why RIM's demise seems to be upon us. iPhone revolutionised the smartphone to the point where if it doesn't have a large app store, it's a useless phone. Developers don't seem to want to develop for BlackBerry, which means less people will buy BB, so even less developers will continue developing for BB, and so the vicious cycle begins.

[Rickroller]

If I must pick one of the three options you listed, I would have to say under-engineering (does that term honestly exist?).

It's basically why VzW said "pass" on the storm 2.5 refresh. It's the main reason the users that have left bb for iphone or droids. The only other thing I could imagine is the number of apps (what does apple store have now? over 100,000?) but a user wouldn't find out something like that, in general, until he or she has really jumped into the smartphone pool and swam around for a little while.

Not enough modern hardware and poor software has a lot to do with it, in my honest opinion. Too many lags, too many spinning clocks/hour glasses, too many freeze-ups. Compared to the fast, lighting-smooth UI's that are available out there today, the generaly "clunky" feeling of a blackberry won't win over many people.

Most of us blackberry fans have been well rehearsed on the "playbook is around the corner, modern phones are on the way" song and dance but as weeks and months roll on and none of it has happened while at the same time the competition is putting products on the shelves. Where is that playbook, anyway? Yea I just saw another youtube video with the rim spokesperson showing it off. Tethered with a chain or a chord and not allowed in the consumer's hands.

Well said. In the world of the Moto Razors, Palm Treo's, early Winmo's and regular ol' dumbphones..the BB was king. Fast forward 2 years in the world of pocket computers and the BB is now standing on the outside looking in.

Rushed development? I don't know for sure..but whoever said yes to the initial software release of the Torch was hopefully slapped, stripped of all their assets, and dropped off at the unemployment line..because that was a horrible version of what it became. This can be said for whoever was heading their Quality Control department..

RIM will always fill a niche for those who love physical keyboards. Perhaps they will come out on top once again with the release of QNX..I guess we'll see in a few years. As for their demise? Hardly..at least until the developing nations get a taste of the modern day "super phones".

[Jaguarr40]

Biggest gripe with RIM that I have... Any Company in the Smartphone business that would tout the TOur 9630 the way they did July 2 years ago and DC it a year later to only come out with a clone Bold 9650 should be ashamed of themselves and because they are only making OS available to devices with the Optical Trackpad and wi-fi that they added to the Tours replacement is shameful as well.

[Shodan775]

Hardly..at least until the developing nations get a taste of the modern day "super phones".

They have. Ok, not the deepest part of Africa or South America, but trust me, the smartphones are present everywhere.

[Rickroller]

They have. Ok, not the deepest part of Africa or South America, but trust me, the smartphones are present everywhere.

Running on 2G servers? I thought that was the whole point with RIM setting up their "infrastructure" on some of the countries..because alot of them are still on 2G..

[darkmanx2g]

Rim has lost focus in the 3g markets and are selling off their old hardware that they bought in massive bulk which can't sell in the 4g/3g markets. They are now focusing on 2g markets and leaving the high end quality phones to android and apple.

Its very risky because Nokia did the same thing and they are still number one in worldwide marketshare but they make way less profit than apple. Due to the cheap handsets = lower profit margin.

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[tmelon]

I think you're all on crack. RIM isn't going anywhere. ALL devices that are more complicated than a pencil have somebody somewhere complaining about something about them. No mass-manufacturing process is 100% flawless. Defects happen. In some cases it's a poor design from the outset; RIM certainly has a few of these, but nothing of the magnitude of, say, the Kin. Good companies with otherwise solid product lines figure out how to work through it. I mean, Apple survuved Antenna-gate relatively unscathed. RiM is still thriving despite Storm 1. Nokia on the other hand, not so much. And you see the problems MS is having regaining traction in the mobile market.

I do sympathize with anyone who ends up with a lemon, and that can certainly sour one's opinion os a company (no pun intended ... Ok, maybe a little pun). You also have to remember that, if you're gaging your opinion on what youy see in public message forums, you're never going to see someone post about the incredibly solid bezel on their phone. I've had 3 BB's in the last 5 years, and every one has been absolutely sollid, not the least of which being this Torch. I think there's a whole lot more BB users that feel that way than don't. I guarantee you every other phone maker has its share of users with issues as well. As long as the balance stays favorable, they'll all be around for quite some time.

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It's not realistic to think that a company with a diminishing amount of users is going to be prominent much longer. Take Palm for example, sure they still make phones, but does anyone even care these days?

[jd914]

RIM's formula for making "new" devices, tweak the previous OS by giving it the next number 4,5,6 and so on and use plastic, plastic and more plastic.

I agree with the OP about BB quality issues, good post.

[sleepngbear]

It's not realistic to think that a company with a diminishing amount of users is going to be prominent much longer. Take Palm for example, sure they still make phones, but does anyone even care these days?

Well there's a pretty common misconception right there. RIM is not losing users, it's gaining them ... just not quite as quickly as Apple and the (combined) Android device manufacturers.

And yes, Palm is a very sad story. The Treo 650 was my favorite phone before I started using BB's. Then the Treo 750 with WinMo was my most hated. Now there's a case study in strategic blunders: replacing your perfectly good, reliable, user-friendly proprietary OS with the biggest piece of crap to ever grace a mobile phone.

[the_sandman_454]

The Tour had a weak CDMA radio and/or poor tuning issue that they never did end up getting figured out. They had a terrible launch and issues at launch, and issues with the devices seemed to continue even after that. The inconvenient to remove/clean trackball didn't help much. They should have delayed the launch another 6 months and really poured some development effort into the 9650 Bold to launch just before Christmas.

At least if they were pushing to the front of the technological battleground it would be harder to fault them for their flaws.

Being last to the party and still not bringing quality with you is inexcusable.

[Rootbrian]

HTC rushes launches too.

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[radimus]

All of the smartphone makers rush launches and release devices with issues. Sometimes the issues don't cause a big problem and sometimes they do. Also, if you release a new devices with enough bright and shiny stuff people may overlook the large glaring issues it has. After all, how do you think the iPhone was such a success when it first launched without cut & paste and multitasking?

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[K Bear]

HTC rushes launches too.

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Every manufacturer rushes to market and no device is prefect. Opinions are based on the number of problems, their severity, on how they impact the user.

[Jaguarr40]

The Tour had a weak CDMA radio and/or poor tuning issue that they never did end up getting figured out. They had a terrible launch and issues at launch, and issues with the devices seemed to continue even after that. The inconvenient to remove/clean trackball didn't help much. They should have delayed the launch another 6 months and really poured some development effort into the 9650 Bold to launch just before Christmas.

At least if they were pushing to the front of the technological battleground it would be harder to fault them for their flaws.

Being last to the party and still not bringing quality with you is inexcusable.

SM you know it is not often that we don't see eye to eye but I have to say this as it is not really a dissagreement... I bought the Tour as we spoke before about on Launch day...A sunday and I was one of the people packed at my local VZW. I have never had an issue with my tour not one since purchase, Not with the radio or trackball(Maybe because I have my own way of keeping it clean) and my reception either home or work has been 4-5 bars. A bit less where I work in a building but I do not dispute because of the demise of the Tour after 1 year that they could have held out for the Bold 9650 but that is past tense for sure.

I am on my first and only Tour and for sure last as I get ready to migrate to a new platform in about a month because of this short Tour so to speak for my device but besides memory leaks that I can live with I am ready to move on and why? For the simple reason the moving ahead I do not nor have I heard of anything from RIM itself or at CES that says WOW am I excited about this or that coming out in 6 months ot whatever and because of the lack of this is why I am moving on. It is why I PM you with Questions about your device and you have given me honest answers.

I am sorry RIM has taken this stance and many of the same threads have shown up in the forum asking the same thing disguised as a different toppic.

I am tired of all the retoric and same RIm is this and RIM is that answers although as stated I have a solid device and if I wanted to keep it it would be great but moving forward is where I have to go and to a new and more vibrant platform one of which I have not decided yet.
Thanks as always for your input.