[NiteWatchman]

After several tries I have finally received what I believe is a very clear statement by Research In Motion about the GPS capabilibities of the BB 8830.

The BlackBerry 8830 smartphone houses a proprietary, autonomous GPS receiver. This
receiver is able to calculate the handheld's location relying solely on GPS
satellites with no input from cellular towers. While the device does have assisted
GPS, i.e. A-GPS capability, it houses a "full" GPS system similar in nature
to GPS systems used by GPS-only car kits and mobile devices. This is designed to
be accessible by second- and third-party applications such as BlackBerry Maps, Google
Maps, and TeleNav. Such programs do need a wireless data signal to download mapping
information, though they can figure out where the BlackBerry is in terms of latitude
and longitude with just the GPS signal.

The BlackBerry 8830 smartphone as released by Verizon has had this "full"
GPS capability disabled at a software level. Verizon has indicated that they plan
to release their own proprietary GPS mapping solution at a later time; possibly
VZ Navigator. AT&T and T-Mobile have both taken similar routes with their 8800
series handhelds; locking out GPS access for 3rd party programs and only enabling
access to the built-in receiver to the TeleNav program that they sell themselves.

If you would like Verizon to enable GPS functionality on the BlackBerry 8830, I
suggest you contact them and advise them as much.

Thank you again for contacting us, Dennis. If you have any questions or comments,
feel free to contact us.

Sincerely,

Adam
BlackBerry Customer Support
Research In Motion Limited


What say you Verizon!

So my question here is... Is there satellite GPS software that will run on the 8830? IF the satellite GPS chipset is working but the Assisted GPS system (which uses VZW cell towers) is blocked by VZW, why not bypass the A-GPS with software written that uses the satellite GPS? Sounds like what we need here is a BB version of Garmin, or TomTom. Another thought... Google maps uses the A-GPS; A-GPS "pings" cell towers to triangulate location. Could VZW simply disabled that ping request from being sent out? Without knowing a lot about the situation, I am just trying to figure out how VZW disabled the GPS and how to get around it.

[ncc1701p]

So my question here is... Is there satellite GPS software that will run on the 8830? IF the satellite GPS chipset is working but the Assisted GPS system (which uses VZW cell towers) is blocked by VZW, why not bypass the A-GPS with software written that uses the satellite GPS? Sounds like what we need here is a BB version of Garmin, or TomTom. Another thought... Google maps uses the A-GPS; A-GPS "pings" cell towers to triangulate location. Could VZW simply disabled that ping request from being sent out? Without knowing a lot about the situation, I am just trying to figure out how VZW disabled the GPS and how to get around it.

Stupid question here.. But what about telenav. I saw on the telenav website that it works on the 8830... But you need a 'external' bluetooth gps receiver. You think that VZW would allow the use of telenav? I use telenav on my b7520 and it works great and I travel around the country.
Cheers

[NiteWatchman]

Stupid question here.. But what about telenav. I saw on the telenav website that it works on the 8830... But you need a 'external' bluetooth gps receiver. You think that VZW would allow the use of telenav? I use telenav on my b7520 and it works great and I travel around the country.
Cheers

To be honest, I never heard of TelNav. I looked them up and yes it looks very cool, but it is an extra $10 per month. They (TelNav) advertise that they have a system that works with the BB 8830 from Verizon.
GOOD NEWS! So that is very cool. I just wish there wasn't a monthly fee involved. VZW will probably be offering their service for the same price (maybe). GoogleMaps is free; it would just be cool if it worked. I am paying enough in monthly fees already. But if VZW offers GPS with a $10 per month fee, and I really want it that bad, I'll go with TelNav instead. LOL Thanks for the tip.

[ncc1701p]

To be honest, I never heard of TelNav. I looked them up and yes it looks very cool, but it is an extra $10 per month. They (TelNav) advertise that they have a system that works with the BB 8830 from Verizon.
GOOD NEWS! So that is very cool. I just wish there wasn't a monthly fee involved. VZW will probably be offering their service for the same price (maybe). GoogleMaps is free; it would just be cool if it worked. I am paying enough in monthly fees already. But if VZW offers GPS with a $10 per month fee, and I really want it that bad, I'll go with TelNav instead. LOL Thanks for the tip.

Again.. ONLY drawback is the fact that yo have to buy another external GPS receiver and connect it via bluetooth.. where you already have GPS in this phone.. Stupid and I see why people are complaining.. yes its an extra fee which im glad work picks up that tab

[plsqldba]

I am a sprint user and the GPS nav is cool on my 8830, however Sprint did get an extra $25 bucks/month out of me for Blackberry data and nav service. I was paying $15/mo for unlimited data and I could use my treo as a modem. Don't get me wrong I love having the gps and nav, however to have to pay for gps and satellites is just wrong - I have a garmin unit and its free. I was wondering when they'd start charging for that. Anyway - glad to be on Sprint when I read all this crap about VZ disabling GPS. Verizon is so expensive I always wondered how they got so many subscribers.

[dlathem]

So my question here is... Is there satellite GPS software that will run on the 8830? IF the satellite GPS chipset is working but the Assisted GPS system (which uses VZW cell towers) is blocked by VZW, why not bypass the A-GPS with software written that uses the satellite GPS? Sounds like what we need here is a BB version of Garmin, or TomTom. Another thought... Google maps uses the A-GPS; A-GPS "pings" cell towers to triangulate location. Could VZW simply disabled that ping request from being sent out? Without knowing a lot about the situation, I am just trying to figure out how VZW disabled the GPS and how to get around it.

The GPS on the 8830 is ONLY working for the purpose of E911 Mandated by the FCC. All access by all software to any of the location information data provided by either the A-GPS or the GPS itself is BLOCKED. Verizon simply modified the Blackberry software so that GPS location information is not handed off to any third party software.

I have an external Bluetooth GPS puck that I can use with both Blackberry Maps and Google Maps. The problem is the Blackberry Maps has yet to locate any address I have put into it. This really does not help you find directions. The software also does not provide turn by turn instructions and is very slow to load. I have actually outrun the current map display waiting on the update to load. This was in full signal strength areas. The algorithm used to get directions is squirrely and you end up with longer routes than necessary. Also, the maps are very out of date in many areas.

Unless you just want to watch yourself go down the road on a map it is basically useless. Google maps was even worse, but at least you could look at your self as a blue dot on the satellite photo. Both are resource and battery hogs.

I just think I will buy a Magellan and use a system that I know works.

Perhaps Verizon blocking the GPS data of the phone was a favor to all of us.

[HoldHard]

I just think I will buy a Magellan and use a system that I know works.

Perhaps Verizon blocking the GPS data of the phone was a favor to all of us.

Even if VZ comes out with a navigation aid, I'll stick with my TomTom GO 910. Bigger screen, touch-screen interface, selectable compass display, easy to use, 20GB of storage for music, selection of languages and voices, automatic change of color scheme for night driving and very accurate. The on-board battery runs for about 20+ hours and the car charger is included.

Remember the GPS signals are free. Why would you pay a monthly fee for something that's already there?

If you drive in Europe, they also provide updated lists of the traffic camera locations that are used to mail out tickets to people who exceed the speed limit. There is a docking station connection for the TomTom that connects to a USB port on your PC and the downloads are free. Very handy.

Just my 2 cents.....

HH

[wabbit]

I do think vz made rim mfg the phone with a agps antena instead of the ones found on other providers. I doubt this is software locked.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[wabbit]

Verizon is so expensive I always wondered how they got so many subscribers.

verizon works everywhere and it rings when you call it.

[plsqldba]

verizon works everywhere and it rings when you call it.

I've had all the major carriers over the past 10 years - T-mobile being the absolute worst followed by cingular, and I'd put my experience with Sprint and Verizon at equal - except when you compare customer service and value - Sprint exceeds in both. When my contract ran out I re-signed with Sprint - but I would agree with you that Verizon does have reliable service. JMHO.

[taichiubg]

Why doesn't someone order the GPS and see what software changes on their phone. Then try to duplicate this change manually.

[trinston]

verizon works everywhere and it rings when you call it.

Exactly. I ALWAYS get service, no question! And for that, it's worth the price. Knowing that you can get in touch with your family, police, etc. from virtually anywhere is priceless in my opinion.

[JRSCCivic98]

Why doesn't someone order the GPS and see what software changes on their phone. Then try to duplicate this change manually.

That would be because there's no GPS option software from VZW yet.

[wabbit]

Why doesn't someone order the GPS and see what software changes on their phone. Then try to duplicate this change manually.

because their navigation or gps will use agps like any raza or any phone they offer, that dont have gps, it will triangulate your location from actual network.

[DC.Russell]

What I do is I go to Verizon's website and chat with a representative.

Simply go to any Blackberry portion and once you are there for about 30 sec a window will open up in which you can chat with a rep. I ask them why things are the way they are and give them a ear full. In doing so I hope that eventually they get flooded and and can't use that feature. If I can't use my features then they can't either.

Even if my plan never works at
least I have someone to take my aggression out on.

[wabbit]

What I do is I go to Verizon's website and chat with a representative.

Simply go to any Blackberry portion and once you are there for about 30 sec a window will open up in which you can chat with a rep. I ask them why things are the way they are and give them a ear full. In doing so I hope that eventually they get flooded and and can't use that feature. If I can't use my features then they can't either.

Even if my plan never works at
least I have someone to take my aggression out on.

Do you really think the other side is a person typing to you? Btw, sprint I think closed about 1000 acct of people calling too much, verizon can probably do the same.

What I really am interested in, if the vz block can be hacked and they launch vz navigator, a class action suit over actually forcing someone to use a pay per svc and disabling a feature for said purpose.


After all verizon didn�t supply the equipment you purchased said equipment.

[wabbit]

On a total diffrent side note, i found from googling around last year the bb code structure was hacked, and decomplied.

Problem is its as of 06, idk if I can post a link but its pretty interesting reading.

Now the only thing is as a year changed devices changed and stuff gets added, but can a rim signed file be actually altered and resigned 3rd party ? not much really needs to be done i think just rename the links for vz to sprint or any other cdma carrier that has gps enabled just a thought tho

[sam_turman]

Guys, I have MS degree in electronics and GPS was one of my specialties. Probably that�s why I am so emotionally attached to it.
I am telling you that GPS doesn�t depend on any cell phone network. It acquires it�s position from satellites. This basically means that GPS in blackberry 8830 is capable to give you elevation, altitude and longitude even on deserted island. GPS signal is free and getting your position is similar to listening to FM radio. The only difference is that GPS broadcasts everywhere on this planet.
Some advanced GPS receivers also use local correctional signal but only get better accuracy (from +-20M to +- 2M). But it�s not vital for acquiring coordinates.
Getting the map is a different story. 8830 gets maps from internet (which you already paid for). Then the software puts you on the map using coordinates from GPS.

So not long ago I bought BB 8830 (paid full price � 520$) and found that GPS is disabled on it. I was especially pissed driving by gmap directions and knowing that the device is perfectly capable of giving me my location on the map but I am not allowed to see it.
Let�s get it straight: Police, government and Verizon can get my location at any time but not me?
I e-mailed Verizon my disappointment and got a response:
�To alleviate concerns regarding access to data by malicious applications and misuse of location information, Verizon Wireless' location based services utilize a solution that requires each location request to be authenticated and accepted prior to a user's location being obtained through the network and used by authorized applications.�
Translated to English it means �no way�.
That�s fine with me. I do respect Verizon policy and they can do whatever they want simply because they own the network. Verizon if free to build their business the way they want.
I was Verizon customer for too long and now I realize that they are not right for me!
It�s time to move somewhere else. And that�s what I am going to do in nearest future. I want to make my own decisions about my security. I have my policy too: �Live free or die!�.

I am looking in T-mobile. Cold you guys share your experience with it?

Respect to everybody!

[sam_turman]

Don’t get me wrong I am not going to hack verizon. I better switch to another provider who gives unlocked phones. It saves time and aggravation.
But for curiosity sake…
Here is what I found. When I start gmap it tries to get the location and fails saying “signal too weak”. If you press Alt - LGLG you can see the logs. (I found it in O’Raley book “Blackberry Hacks”).

I think these two events are related to gmap.

Name: Location API
GUID: 277d769e659b97fd
Time: Aug 22, 2007 02:22:04
Application must set valid PDE IP and Port to get Location

Name: System
GUID: 97c9f5f641d25e5f
Time: Aug 22, 2007 02:22:04
CMM: com_google_gmaps_lib(664) no sig from 0x33

Probably all location APIs are getting forwarded for authentication or they are simply disabled in the Service Book of the phone.
If you go to Advanced options ->Service Book and look through the records you can find “Google talk”. It seems gmap is not in the list and that’s why API or authentication is disabled.

By the way here is the link to BB location API doc:
www.blackberry.com<slash>developers<slash>docs<sla sh>4.1api<slash>index.html
Click on javax.microedition.location
The API is free but not for us! Verizon thinks it’s better for us not to know our own location. It’s for our own safety against malicious software!
To be absolutely safe keep your phone powered down and don’t forget to pay you bills.

[Mobilegeek]

The new Motorola Q 9m has finally been released today by Verizon. I can't believe that they left the sGPS enabled on this phone and disabled it on the 8830. That stupid statement that Verizon's exec made about GPS damaging Verizon's network is baloney. If Verizon really thought that GPS could hurt their Network then they probably would have disabled it on the Moto Q as well. Maybe Motorola told them to take a walk when Verizon asked for it to be disabled. Come on Rim, start standing up for yourself. When will Verizon stop lying to its customers?

[Crack-On]

Has anyone tried overwriting the Verizon version of the BB-OS with the (un-hobbled) one available from Sprint or RIM, and then changing the network settings back over to Verizon's?

[jkendrick]

jkOnTheRun: Verizon BlackBerry update

[sam_turman]

I don’t think Verizon will ever make GPS absolutely free for all third party applications.
I think they want to make money not only on VZNavigator but also on advertising local businesses on the map. If you want you gas station or restaurant to appear on Verizon map you will need to pay. It’s too sweet peace of business for them. If they let any free navigator on the phone that peace of business will be gone. It’s perfect example of corporate greed. First sell phone with GPS, then data plan, then charge monthly for navigation, and finally sell space on their map!

So they probably don’t care when regular customers leave them. They are after business customers. But the risk is that they will loose both. I am leaving them anyway.

[ibmman69]

I am glad to hear this but I will believe it when I see it.

Aren't BB's supposed to be the most secure phones on the market?

Did he outline the "security concerns" RIM ignored? I think customers would be more understanding if VZW would be a little more open.

How accurate has information from this guy been in the past?

jkOnTheRun: Verizon BlackBerry update

[jkendrick]

As it was explained to me many GPS programs transmit the user's exact location over the network and there are privacy concerns.