08-19-10 05:53 PM
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  1. fecurtis's Avatar
    I take it you don't know much about Waterloo then.

    There is something to be said for being next door to the University of Waterloo



    And then there is the Perimeter Institute.

    Waterloo is also home to a number of financial institutions and insurance companies.

    It's not quite the backwater little town some may think it is.
    I never suggested that it was backwater. I actually like Ontario a lot, my point was, while yes it has tech roots (RIM probably brought a lot of that in) in terms of innovation, Apple, Google, Microsoft and a lot of major companies are all based around Silicon Valley and there it's this crazy culture.
    08-06-10 02:06 PM
  2. Radius's Avatar
    I take it you don't know much about Waterloo then.

    There is something to be said for being next door to the University of Waterloo



    And then there is the Perimeter Institute.

    Waterloo is also home to a number of financial institutions and insurance companies.

    It's not quite the backwater little town some may think it is.
    I am not a firm believer that location or even education defines how good someone or something is going to be. In the software world there is so much innovation coming from self educated people it's really refreshing. Someone who comes from any backwater can be as good or greater than someone who grew up in Silicon Valley.

    I have heard of Waterloo though, I know it's a good spot.
    08-06-10 02:07 PM
  3. fecurtis's Avatar
    Ever hear of outsourcing? The USA is losing so many programmers it's scary.
    I doubt that, skilled labor is a far more difficult thing to ship off to some other country.

    The bulk of your R&D is no longer done in the US overall. And Canada can go toe to toe with your app developers any day, that's a given. Why do you think so many of us are head hunted for US companies? I have been as well but I turned it down in the end as I don't want to leave this city. Although a starting wage of $80K and a travel allowance to return to Canada every weekend was something I really had to mull over, it was not an easy choice.
    Oh I bet they can, the only reason they can is because of people like Apple and Google with the insight and innovation to actually give RIM a run for their money. There's a reason why OS 6 is the way it even is.
    08-06-10 02:08 PM
  4. Radius's Avatar
    I doubt that, skilled labor is a far more difficult thing to ship off to some other country.



    Oh I bet they can, the only reason they can is because of people like Apple and Google with the insight and innovation to actually give RIM a run for their money. There's a reason why OS 6 is the way it even is.
    Seriously, have you even seen the state of outsourcing? I have my finger on that pulse and it is in no way difficult to get developers in other countries. Many of them are just as good and willing to work for a fraction of what a North American will.

    As for the other comment, I was talking in a broader sense. Apple and Google drive a mere fraction of technologies out there despite their size. Both are actually very niche-oriented companies when compared to the likes of Daewoo and others. Canadians aren't following up to keep at pace with what the other companies are doing all the time, we are actually innovators too.
    08-06-10 02:13 PM
  5. fecurtis's Avatar
    Seriously, have you even seen the state of outsourcing? I have my finger on that pulse and it is in no way difficult to get developers in other countries. Many of them are just as good and willing to work for a fraction of what a North American will.

    As for the other comment, I was talking in a broader sense. Apple and Google drive a mere fraction of technologies out there despite their size. Both are actually very niche-oriented companies when compared to the likes of Daewoo and others. Canadians aren't following up to keep at pace with what the other companies are doing all the time, we are actually innovators too.
    Oh I'm not arguing that you aren't innovators.

    Since you yourself are a programmer, I'll just have to take your word for it. You'd be more knowledgeable about the state of your industry than I would be.

    Besides, we're merely debating a utterly hypothetical and highly unlikely (in the foreseeable future) event. Happy Friday.
    08-06-10 02:20 PM
  6. Radius's Avatar
    Oh I'm not arguing that you aren't innovators.

    Since you yourself are a programmer, I'll just have to take your word for it. You'd be more knowledgeable about the state of your industry than I would be.

    Besides, we're merely debating a utterly hypothetical and highly unlikely (in the foreseeable future) event. Happy Friday.
    Hey, hypothetical is far better than a reality crashing down on top of you. Like me switching to an iPhone, ain't gonna happen.
    08-06-10 02:42 PM
  7. sonicxtacy02's Avatar
    Microsoft buying RIM, man what an abortion that would be. I dont think RIM is going anywhere despite my views on there current line of products or line of thought.
    08-06-10 02:51 PM
  8. The Legendary's Avatar
    All the programming, planning, and R&D would be done here (all the skilled labor basically). Besides, I bet RIM would be better off around other tech geek creative minds that inhabit Silicon Valley, it's a culture and way of life out there, unlike in Waterloo. Just my opinion, but to even fathom RIM being bought is a long stretch at this time.

    I use apps for many things, be it social networking, productivity, looking up metro delays, finding today's happy hour deals in relation to where I am, looking up the latest news feeds, etc etc.
    Talk about not knowing what your talking about Microsoft, Apple, Google and RIM all higher directly out of the University of Waterloo, which is next to RIM.

    ALSO at the guy who says RIM uses out sourcing, everything is built in Canada. I have been in the RIM manufacturing plant majority of the stuff is done right there. Even customer support has its own building in the "head office". There are 25 RIM buildings in their main campus. So ya as much as you Americans want our jobs too bad you can't have them.
    08-06-10 03:05 PM
  9. Radius's Avatar
    Talk about not knowing what your talking about Microsoft, Apple, Google and RIM all higher directly out of the University of Waterloo, which is next to RIM.

    ALSO at the guy who says RIM uses out sourcing, everything is built in Canada. I have been in the RIM manufacturing plant majority of the stuff is done right there. Even customer support has its own building in the "head office". There are 25 RIM buildings in their main campus. So ya as much as you Americans want our jobs too bad you can't have them.
    I hope you don't mean me, I never said RIM was outsourcing. Except to Mexico, but anyhow...

    I think what people are missing is even though growth may be slowed in North America it's really taking off in Asian markets. It's like the sham bailout of the auto makers, the government gave billions to GM who in the same year the "required" a bailout built a few new manufacturing plants in China and saw a revenue increase of about 18% in Asian markets. It's all smoke and mirrors.
    08-06-10 03:10 PM
  10. fecurtis's Avatar
    Talk about not knowing what your talking about Microsoft, Apple, Google and RIM all higher directly out of the University of Waterloo, which is next to RIM.
    They hire solely in Canada?!?! My God I could've sworn they also heavily recruited from where I went to college too.

    Coming from the guy who couldn't differentiate "hire" from "higher", it's of no surprise that you missed my point.

    ALSO at the guy who says RIM uses out sourcing, everything is built in Canada.
    Except for the things they manufacture in Mexico.

    I have been in the RIM manufacturing plant majority of the stuff is done right there. Even customer support has its own building in the "head office". There are 25 RIM buildings in their main campus. So ya as much as you Americans want our jobs too bad you can't have them.
    I said I wanted your jobs? Again your reading comprehension is amusing.
    08-06-10 03:26 PM
  11. fecurtis's Avatar
    I hope you don't mean me, I never said RIM was outsourcing. Except to Mexico, but anyhow...

    I think what people are missing is even though growth may be slowed in North America it's really taking off in Asian markets. It's like the sham bailout of the auto makers, the government gave billions to GM who in the same year the "required" a bailout built a few new manufacturing plants in China and saw a revenue increase of about 18% in Asian markets. It's all smoke and mirrors.
    How so? They aren't doing business there because it's simply cheaper, GM makes a lot of money out in China (Buick is viewed as a high class luxury vehicle out there...hard to believe I know). Besides, GM has hired folks stateside as well and they still build a lot of their cars here, including the upcoming Volt.

    The demand there is booming at a far greater pace than it is here in America (same can be said for India). Why not create jobs out there and do business there? It's virtually an untapped market with plenty of potential for businesses.

    It's hardly smoke and mirrors, it's just business.
    08-06-10 03:28 PM
  12. FMB8900's Avatar
    Sold? That's purely ridiculous!

    The stock trades at $52 a share today. It's been up, it's been down.

    But everyday something changes...like this


    RIM's official statement was equally as staunch:
    Any claims that we provide, or have ever provided, something unique to the government of one country that we have not offered to the governments of all countries, are unfounded. RIM cannot accommodate any request for a copy of a customer's encryption key, since at no time does RIM, or any wireless network operator or any third party, ever possess a copy of the key. This means that customers of the BlackBerry enterprise solution can maintain confidence in the integrity of the security architecture without fear of compromise.
    The potential ban could also be an excellent jumping off point for the company's marketing strategy if it plays up its high-level security and reasserts its willingness to put user privacy ahead of the bottom line.
    In doing so, RIM would finally be able to differentiate itself from the pack.

    RIM is not a Palm, a Microsoft, or an Apple or Google. It's RIM. It has it's own unique product that will go up and down like anything else.

    If that were the case, then Microsoft should have been bought out for putting out a product like Windows Vista! lol.

    They're not going anywhere...that's just silliness!

    EDIT ADD: Let's see the wave come back to BB when a virus hits androids or iphones!
    Very well said! I especially love the part about how microsoft should have been bought out because of vista! Haha

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-06-10 03:40 PM
  13. JohnnyTheCanuck's Avatar
    RIM is in a place right now that is slightly precarious, as a proud Canadian and RIM products user I can admit that.

    This nonsense about the dark-ages nations (Meant in a mostly social not so much economical tone) like UAE, Saudi Arabia, India etc... and their threats against RIM will affect share prices and the value of the company period. This can not be ignored or just brushed aside. Remember that the commerce and trade coming to/from the middle east and south asia is huge. You can't just put the blinders on and state:
    RIM is doing so well in America and Europe that it doesnt matter even if UAE and Saudia Arabia ban its services, which they wont do.
    They might do, in fact the lights went out for a 5 hour window just today/last night.

    And if they do, it will be all that the US and Canadian foreign offices can do to get things hashed out.

    As far as innovation and products, we have to remember that enterprise will stay the course, especially when the old addage of "if it's not broke don't fix it" applies to the people that make buying and technology decisions in the Business world.

    An Information Executive doesn't really care if his sales force and management team wants a device that has cool apps and media capabilities, they want bullet proof communications tools for industry. If they can have their cake and eat it too, it's a bonus, and certainly cost would then come into play... why opt for expensive devices when current, yet more cost effective devices can be on offer? It's the same as companies and their fleet vehicles... they don't hand out Vettes, Camaro's, Challengers, etc they use Ford Trucks, Fusions, Focus', Chev Malibus, Uplanders, Cobalts, Dodge Avengers, etc...

    Function over Fashion for the corporate sector.

    While RIM might be lagging and plodding a bit on the fun and form factors of consumer offerings, the Enterprise has always been their bread and butter and I don't see that changing anytime soon. THIS issue is the only one that RIM is in toruble over imho... keeping average Joe that likes a toy for a phone is the one who will opt first for iPhone or Droid etc becuase of the current hardware/software stuff from RIM.

    My Humble $0.02 on the matter.
    Last edited by JohnnyTheCanuck; 08-06-10 at 04:02 PM.
    08-06-10 03:57 PM
  14. Anonymous94587689's Avatar
    Funny, two days earlier that same guy wrote

    "...The BlackBerry Torch, and BlackBerry 6 OS catapult RIM back into the smartphone race..."

    " .... While Apple has made significant strides to provide IT admins with tools to provision, manage, and protect iPhones within a corporate network, RIM is still the standard. With the BlackBerry Torch, perhaps RIM can regain some of its lost market share and remain the leading smartphone platform for the foreseeable future...."

    ( see RIM Regains Lost Edge with BlackBerry Torch - PCWorld Business Center )

    and before that ...
    iPhone-Like BlackBerry Can Inject New Life into RIM - PCWorld Business Center
    08-06-10 04:04 PM
  15. anon1727506's Avatar
    Most consumers don't know jack and that's the truth. Most people never research before they buy and just go for simple numbers like CPU speed, screen size and memory. Sorry, but those are pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
    I agree. That typical U.S. society. Feed us all this glitter and glam and watch us get herded like sheep. DO YOUR HOMEWORK, PEOPLE!
    Think it is THE manufacture that might need to do THEIR homework... If "most people never research....go for simple numbers like CPU speed, screen size and memory". Then maybe if THE manufacture wanted to sell smartphones they might consider building what customers are BUYING and not what THE manufacture thinks they should have.

    And while those numbers are not the whole picture... they are far from being "meaningless in the grand scheme of things".
    Where would RIM be if the 9800 had a current 1Mhz processor, in place of a two generation old 624Mhz processor? (maybe fewer "fire" puns)
    Where would it be if the OS were installed on a 4GB drive, with a full 512MB of dedicated RAM? (maybe it would not need to be replace next year when OS7 drops)
    And how much better would it have looked with a higher quality screen when it is sitting in an AT&T store next to all the other new high end devices? (maybe someone other than a corporate user that is stuck with BB or a BB super-fan would buy one)

    I agree people need to do their homework... just not sure RIM will be happy if they do - because most people don't need instant email - 5minute will do just fine, and most people do not require super secure systems, and the other biggie Battery Life... well if the 9800 with a smaller battery is anything like my 9530, can't image that is going to be anything brag about.
    08-06-10 04:22 PM
  16. JohnnyTheCanuck's Avatar
    Being as the above post in consumer-centric and not at all keeping in mind the Enterprise, it sparked a question for me.

    is there any statistical data of any merit showing what the rate of BB users are as far as Enterprise vs basic consumer?

    would there be any way to show/track that?
    08-06-10 04:39 PM
  17. JohnnyTheCanuck's Avatar
    RIM is doing so well in America and Europe that it doesnt matter even if UAE and Saudia Arabia ban its services, which they wont do.
    I give you:
    The regulator, the Communications and Information Technology Commission (CITC), did not say whether it had begun enforcing the ban. Saudi Arabia is RIM's biggest Middle East market with about 700,000 users.
    Neighbouring UAE has 500,000 BlackBerry users and plans a more sweeping ban from October 11 targeting not only Messenger but also email and web browsing on the device.
    UPDATE 2-BlackBerry maker, Saudis working on fix-source | Reuters

    That is nothign to sniff at, the article claims the countries threatening make up about 5% of RIM's market.
    Last edited by JohnnyTheCanuck; 08-06-10 at 04:55 PM.
    08-06-10 04:52 PM
  18. Radius's Avatar
    Think it is THE manufacture that might need to do THEIR homework... If "most people never research....go for simple numbers like CPU speed, screen size and memory". Then maybe if THE manufacture wanted to sell smartphones they might consider building what customers are BUYING and not what THE manufacture thinks they should have.

    And while those numbers are not the whole picture... they are far from being "meaningless in the grand scheme of things".
    Where would RIM be if the 9800 had a current 1Mhz processor, in place of a two generation old 624Mhz processor? (maybe fewer "fire" puns)
    Where would it be if the OS were installed on a 4GB drive, with a full 512MB of dedicated RAM? (maybe it would not need to be replace next year when OS7 drops)
    And how much better would it have looked with a higher quality screen when it is sitting in an AT&T store next to all the other new high end devices? (maybe someone other than a corporate user that is stuck with BB or a BB super-fan would buy one)

    I agree people need to do their homework... just not sure RIM will be happy if they do - because most people don't need instant email - 5minute will do just fine, and most people do not require super secure systems, and the other biggie Battery Life... well if the 9800 with a smaller battery is anything like my 9530, can't image that is going to be anything brag about.
    So then they choose a phone that's right for them. And for the record, once you get used to instant email you wouldn't go back. I can use IM programs in push mode and almost no one knows I'm not actually logged in.

    I understand what you're saying but I find it sad any company has to cater to complete ignorance. I hate to think I am one of the few people left in this world who can put two and two together to get the most out of my system with a few well placed choices.
    08-06-10 07:22 PM
  19. grahamf's Avatar
    Think it is THE manufacture that might need to do THEIR homework... If "most people never research....go for simple numbers like CPU speed, screen size and memory". Then maybe if THE manufacture wanted to sell smartphones they might consider building what customers are BUYING and not what THE manufacture thinks they should have.

    And while those numbers are not the whole picture... they are far from being "meaningless in the grand scheme of things".
    Where would RIM be if the 9800 had a current 1Mhz processor, in place of a two generation old 624Mhz processor? (maybe fewer "fire" puns)
    Where would it be if the OS were installed on a 4GB drive, with a full 512MB of dedicated RAM? (maybe it would not need to be replace next year when OS7 drops)
    And how much better would it have looked with a higher quality screen when it is sitting in an AT&T store next to all the other new high end devices? (maybe someone other than a corporate user that is stuck with BB or a BB super-fan would buy one)

    I agree people need to do their homework... just not sure RIM will be happy if they do - because most people don't need instant email - 5minute will do just fine, and most people do not require super secure systems, and the other biggie Battery Life... well if the 9800 with a smaller battery is anything like my 9530, can't image that is going to be anything brag about.
    In other words: you want a fully loaded mac pro.
    Retail price: $21,274.85 try it yourself

    also: you REALLY want a MHZ processor in your BB?
    08-06-10 11:56 PM
  20. VIDGMER's Avatar
    I blame Microsoft actually, for teaching people to turn a blind eye to utter crap and just accept it.
    I completely agree with this poster!
    08-07-10 12:14 AM
  21. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I'll preface this reply saying I have not read the Thread just the Article.


    First: The Author is a moron, or at least not a heavy smartphone user. at best he is a smartphone consumer, that uses his smartphone at work. I am not saying that the iPhone, and the Android phones are not business ready, but discounting the blackberry brand as a whole because of specs, saying the BBOS6 is only comparable to the first iPhone, these are such uninformed comments.


    NOW to discuss the very unlikely merger with RIM and Microsoft.

    I actually would love that if they could take the Operating system of RIM, create IE8 for BB, Office 10 for BB, Bring the Best of WinMo Calendar + RIM Calendar.
    Full integration of Desktop Manager with the Office Suit, no more multiple applications, adding Device Sync to Outlook.

    Integrating RIM's MVS with Outlook and Microsoft Exchange server!

    Using Microsoft's Peripheral division to manufacture accessories for RIM devices, such as external Cameras think of a DSLR Lens and half Body's that ingrate with the BB, think Scanners that integrate with the BB, think Printers, and products, you get the point, these would be business essentials.

    RIM's focus on hardware could continue with the Candybar, but with added value from the Microsoft family, they would not need to see the same return for each headset sold so they could spend a little more on hardware costs.

    a MS/RIM would never see the Margins that Apple are getting for there units, but it would certainly give far more skilled engineers the ability to contribute to a tablet platform, and advance a mobile platform!
    08-07-10 12:40 AM
  22. dcsr23's Avatar
    It seems like most here are insecure with having any phone other than a BB, like the BB is to phones, like a Bentley is to cars.

    I actually agree with the article although not entirely. If RIM's forward focus is releasing a phone that's barely any more powerful then a phone that came out a year ago is considered an upgrade, then RIM and anyone buying their phones might as well be living under a rock. Smartphones have been getting smarter and more powerful. No longer are they just messaging devices and communication tools. They are practically Swiss army knives with the multitude of apps available. Blackberry has become nothing more than a two trick pony for email and security, with the other phones quickly moving in to not only out do each others strengths and weaknesses, but also home in on Blackberry as well.

    There's only one phone that can out do the iPhone and that is the iPhone. There is no point for phone makers to try and compete with it directly, but they do know they have to bring alternatives to stay in business. That is why Android is now taking off. They are providing the iPhone like experience that consumers want but can't have without switching to AT&T.

    If RIM doesn't provide a phone that is at least equal in a hardware field and an app marketplace, they are going to quickly get left behind. It isn't all doom and gloom, and they aren't going to close shop tomorrow, but this lack of pushing the hardware limits or at least keeping pace needs to stop. It is a numbers game, and when the avg consumer is shown 2 spec sheets, they will go to the one that offers the higher numbers at the same price.

    Blackberry may have a place amongst business professionals, and you can scream "toy phones" all you want against your "professional" phone, but times have changed. People will stop carrying 2 phones when a solution can be found on one (push email argument, gone), companies are going to stop providing Blackberries to cut cost (those that don't need super secure environments and total control, gone), and at the end of the day, for the consumer who wants an all in one device, they will be looking at the one that gets it done. This will be the phone that has an app market with a wide range of tools, on phones that will last past the one year of introduction.

    Consider this a wake up call to RIM, every inferior device they release is marketshare leaving to a more viable platform. They may not end up like Palm, but they could definitely be going the way of Nokia.
    Last edited by dcsr23; 08-07-10 at 10:43 AM.
    08-07-10 03:00 AM
  23. codythibeauuu's Avatar
    What gets me most is the comparison to other smartphones. There is nothing in there but "it doesn't compare". Well it does and doesn't.

    Most consumers don't know jack and that's the truth. Most people never research before they buy and just go for simple numbers like CPU speed, screen size and memory. Sorry, but those are pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

    Battery life, OS stability, hardware issues, etc. all play into it but no one ever looks at that.

    I blame Microsoft actually, for teaching people to turn a blind eye to utter crap and just accept it.
    So, so true. As a sales rep in smartphones, that's truly all one has to mention. Big numbers in those categories and there's the sale.
    08-07-10 03:18 AM
  24. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    It seems like most here are insecure with having any phone other than a BB, like the BB is to phones, like a Bentley is to cars.

    I actually agree with the article although not entirely. If RIM's forward focus is releasing a phone that's barely any more powerful then a phone that came out a year ago is considered an upgrade, then RIM and anyone buying their phones might as well be leaving under a rock. ]b]Smartphones have been getting smarter and more powerful[/b]. No longer are they just messaging devices and communication tools. They are practically Swiss army knives with the multitude of apps available. Blackberry has become nothing more than a two trick pony for email and security, with the other phones quickly moving in to not only out do each others strengths and weaknesses, but also home in on Blackberry as well.

    There's only one phone that can out do the iPhone and that is the iPhone. There is no point for phone makers to try and compete with it directly, but they do know they have to bring alternatives to stay in business. That is why Android is now taking off. They are providing the iPhone like experience that consumers want but can't have without switching to AT&T.

    If RIM doesn't provide a phone that is at least equal in a hardware field and an app marketplace, they are going to quickly get left behind. It isn't all doom and gloom, and they aren't going to close shop tomorrow, but this lack of pushing the hardware limits or at least keeping pace needs to stop. It is a numbers game, and when the avg consumer is shown 2 spec sheets, they will go to the one that offers the higher numbers at the same price.

    Blackberry may have a place amongst business professionals, and you can scream "toy phones" all you want against your "professional" phone, but times have changed. People will stop carrying 2 phones when a solution can be found on one (push email argument, gone), companies are going to stop providing Blackberries to cut cost (those that don't need super secure environments and total control, gone), and at the end of the day, for the consumer who wants an all in one device, they will be looking at the one that gets it done. This will be the phone that has an app market with a wide range of tools, on phones that will last past the one year of introduction.

    Consider this a wake up call to RIM, every inferior device they release is marketshare leaving to a more viable platform. They may not end up like Palm, but they could definitely be going the way of Nokia.

    This is actually the thing that annoys me the most!
    the same people who condemn people calling iPhones/Androids toys continue to discount RIM's software and the capabilities of the Phones, being not smartphones because they lack a 3rd party app environment and don't have flashy UI's I don't know when flashy became a requirement for smart, I missed that memo, but RIM is easily as advanced if not more so in terms of OS integration and intelligent design, they ARE smartphones, they are far from media phones.

    RIM does need to be looking forward, right now on the GSM side they look to be at a turning point, they couldn't change everything at once, why blow the BIG hardware on a trail phone, this phone will show off OS6, but when they release a much faster phone in the new year OS6 will have all new glory, those of us who buy the 9800 might be miffed that we got a phone with just enough hardware but the device will still be more than capable for those of us that DON'T need a multimedia device.
    08-07-10 03:26 AM
  25. jus10barbour's Avatar
    android OS on a bold form factor would be heaven (and hey, why not throw in some touch capabilities while at it...!)
    08-07-10 04:10 AM
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