[KermEd]

No matter what Rim does, they are always in the wrong.

I don't think they will ever satisfy anyone.

Meh! I've never been one to hop on board with everyone else. I love my PB. It was worth every cent As far as I'm concerned, RIM can do no wrong with me. I've definitely gotten my moneys worth out of it - and I paid full price

I try to remember, in customer service it is assumed that for every complainer there is usually 10 happy customers. And I've seen many threads where the PB has proven that.

I just think people make the mistake of always comparing things to Apple. Reality is, they (edit: Apple) are kind of a dirty, ugly company. And companies should be aiming higher than them. I have plenty of Apple products. But they make their 'premium' off their customers, and their pathetically low wages lol.

They are one of those companies that are pretty on the outside.

~ed

[kevinnugent]

I have a suggestion:
Kevin and co make me a moderator for one day (even an hour).
Any one slating a BB device on IT'S OWN FAN SITE, I will strike off the site PERMANENTLY.
That should do it

Yep, there'll be four or five hard-core say nothing wrong about RIM ever types left.

It'll be a great forum with them all agreeing with each other and liking every post of each other's.

[tmelon]

I don't want to offend you tmelon but this is a perfect example of an non-BB user giving me info I have no use for. You're telling us other companies are ahead, why waste your time in a BB fan site with this kind of non-information

Face recognition is interesting and I'm sure RIM explored that a long time ago. Their head office is right beside a university. Maybe they have issues with face recognition and security.

You talk about iCloud like Apple invented cloud computing. A lot of people already use things live Evernote and Dropbox etc..I have those apps on my BB phone.

And again, in a BB fan forum you're telling us "they're still trying to put email on the playbook". What do you expect to gain from this statement. It seems like you're trying to put salt on a wound. Go to an iPhone forum and talk about email not being on the playbook. Yes, no one cares, which means you're here to Troll.

Forum moderators should try harder to remove this element from BB forums.

I "waste my time" here because I'm a former BlackBerry user and I'm interested in the path that RIM is heading. If you're aren't interested in an outside perspective then you don't have to read my posts.

I'm simply answering the question of the OP with examples such as the email on the PlayBook. From the public perspective, RIM can do no right because they release things long after everyone else when all of the hype has worn down.

[anon3396357]

The iOS 5 going on the 3Gs is not the iOS 5 that went on the 4Gs. They can call it whatever they want, but it's still an incremental upgrade on older iPhones. As far as I know, older BB's continue to get updates for a few years. So an old Curve wont get BB6, and a 9000 won't get BB7, and the BB7 phones won't get BBX. They still get updates. Same thing, different name. Of course when RIM does give an OS a new number, everybody still jumps on them for just changing the name on basically an old OS. So, it's pretty much as the OP said, isn't it.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Really? Are you kidding?

How is an update from .666 to .706 giving me new features on my 9780? They don't even come with a change log and nobody knows what changed! And for the record, OS6 users still can't remove panes on the stock theme.

[Branta]

If they really want to win audiences, have a handset that you can actually update rather than need a new one whenever a new OS comes out, like Apple does. All the phones from 3G on up could update to iOS5. None of the OS7 BBs will get BBX and so on. You'll need a new phone. That act alone would wow a lot of people, myself included. I don't get a new phone whenever the next it thing comes out. I get a new phone when the one I have breaks, but it'd be nice to be able to update my OS whenever a new one comes out, rather than be stuck with the OS preinstalled on my BB. With my Storm2, I'm forever stuck at OS5.

Look at the longer history. RIM has released many software upgrades for various models. However you need to remember the hardware and software must work together, and the current line of phones has been around for rather longer than iPhone or android devices. The design and capability has been pushed and extended to the limit, probably much further than the original designers anticipated. The time has come for a complete redesign and a new product line. I'm sure you will see the same quantum changes in many of the competing phones if you wait another few years.

So... what choices does RIM have?
(a) Retain the existing core design and software with step changes... Condemned by the media and users who denounce it as old technology without innovation.
(b) Innovate and develop the next generation, sacrificing backward compatibility to take advantage of the latest developments... Condemned by the media and (different) users because it is not backward compatible.

I was crippled for 3 days when BIS went out and I had a BB brand paperweight. I'm not around computers all day long and depend on my phone to work right. They fixed it, but by then, it was too late. I got an iPhone about a month ago.

Your posts indicate you are located somewhere in USA. IIRC the "great BIS outage" only impacted service to US consumer-users for one day... but maybe that fact doesn't work so well to explain your migration to iPhone?

[sam_b77]

^ Couldn't be put any better.
People so quickly forget how Apple dumped PowerPC when they switched to OSX and Intel processors.
It was needed to step up the technology.
The BBOS has served well for so long, and now to give the latest features they need to have a completely new architecture.
And its not as if BBOS will stop functioning. That's what RIM is trying to do, make BBX and BBOS work together.
But people wanting BBOS phones to be upgradeable to BBX is a little too much.

[howarmat]

^ Couldn't be put any better.
People so quickly forget how Apple dumped PowerPC when they switched to OSX and Intel processors.
It was needed to step up the technology.
The BBOS has served well for so long, and now to give the latest features they need to have a completely new architecture.
And its not as if BBOS will stop functioning. That's what RIM is trying to do, make BBX and BBOS work together.
But people wanting BBOS phones to be upgradeable to BBX is a little too much.

is it too much to ask that OS 5 phones could step up to OS 6, how bout OS 6 phones step up to OS 7

Honestly my storm 1 got upgraded to OS 5 and i was happy about that. But my storm 2 not getting any OS 6 love is stupid. I am stuck on 1046 or whatever. Now i do applaud RIM for fixing pretty much everything in that build finally. but ever OS from 517 to that final build was crap and had missing functionality. I still think that 517 is the best overall OS for that device. Many people I think agree.

[Branta]

is it too much to ask that OS 5 phones could step up to OS 6, how bout OS 6 phones step up to OS 7

Honestly my storm 1 got upgraded to OS 5 and i was happy about that. But my storm 2 not getting any OS 6 love is stupid. I am stuck on 1046 or whatever. Now i do applaud RIM for fixing pretty much everything in that build finally. but ever OS from 517 to that final build was crap and had missing functionality. I still think that 517 is the best overall OS for that device. Many people I think agree.

Can you suggest how product designers can "design ahead" for the requirements of several generations of software which do not yet exist? For a device with a market life expectancy around 9-19 months it is not commercially reasonable to over-specify the hardware in a vague hope it might be needed for the future.

Or should enhancements in later versions be rejected if they are not compatible with legacy hardware?

[howarmat]

all they needed to do was put more RAM in the damn phones. its not like it would take a an engineer that much to figure that out.

[Moonbase0ne]

Can you suggest how product designers can "design ahead" for the requirements of several generations of software which do not yet exist? For a device with a market life expectancy around 9-19 months it is not commercially reasonable to over-specify the hardware in a vague hope it might be needed for the future.

Or should enhancements in later versions be rejected if they are not compatible with legacy hardware?

I find it almost sad that the 9800, for example, running BB6 cannot be upgraded to BB7. That's not several generations of software, that's approx. 1 year of software, that they had to know about months, if not a year+ ahead of release.

Sure, no one has to have the latest OS/Phones. But, the option to at least upgrade the OS on a phone that's going to be replaced in 10+ months would be nice.

Also, from what I have read, mostly on CB, the reason the 9800 can't upgrade from BB6 to BB7 is because of hardware. Why not improve the hardware to be able to handle the new OS that's about a year away?

And, the same exact thing will be happening again with BB7 and BBX, though that I can understand more.




War Is All We Know

[sam_b77]

With the way hardware is going, what might seem good for another year actually gets outdated in six months. And each new OS version would be designed to take advantage of the latest hardware available.
Currently you have the latest Androids running on Dual core processors. In 8-10 months theyare predicting that phones would be running on Quad Core processors.
How can RIM or anyone make a phone today which runs on Dual Core and yet be upgradeable to software written for Quad Core?
If they release the same OS which is written for Dual Core then it wont be able to fully utilise the Quad Cores, and if it were to perform on Quad Core, it won't be able to run on Dual Cores.
The Torch 9800 was caught up in the same cycle. The processors for OS7 have doubled in speed.
If someone wants the absolute latest, then spend money and change your phone every 6 months. Otherwise keep your peace with what you bought. The hardware progress won't slow down to provide people with a sense of glow for their 8 month old phone.

[Danf]

What it boils down to is there are a lot of people that want something for nothing.

They bought a phone with a particular OS on it and received no promises that their purchase would run the next generation of OS. And yet they still cry like they were somehow cheated.

I wonder if they hang out on car forums and bellyache how the new model year of the car they bought last year has newer and better features and the manufacturer should upgrade their car so it has the same features.

[houshinto#IM]

Again, let get back on topic. As for whether RIM can do no right, it seems that RIM has done right with the steep discount. The Playbook is flying off the shelves and demand is up. Of course the pessimistic view one could have is, well they are practically giving it away, but let's try to be constructive here.

This could be a kick to developers to get their apps out and make some $$ and for RIM, at the very least, get the stock out there as opposed to having it stuck in inventory and written off completely.

I see it as another example of painful bloodletting that needs to be done to ensure platform has a solid foundation and can grow.

[TheMimic]

What it boils down to is there are a lot of people that want something for nothing.

They bought a phone with a particular OS on it and received no promises that their purchase would run the next generation of OS. And yet they still cry like they were somehow cheated.

I wonder if they hang out on car forums and bellyache how the new model year of the car they bought last year has newer and better features and the manufacturer should upgrade their car so it has the same features.

This was exactly what I was thinking as well.

I'd also like to mention, the price of your smartphone will go up with the added RAM and faster or more cores. People are already unhappy with how expensive the current price of the new BBs are. Imagine if it cost even more jsut to have more juice that some user might want to use in the future.

Side note, I just helped a friend switch over from her storm 1 to a 9860. She was still running the original software from when she got it...

[Branta]

all they needed to do was put more RAM in the damn phones. its not like it would take a an engineer that much to figure that out.

Memory costs money. When the phone was designed 3+ years ago that was dead cost to reduce the competitive advantage for no potential gain in >90% which have already been retired or users dont want to upgrade.

Then... subspeed processor but adequate for the original design and software.

[kevinnugent]

Can you suggest how product designers can "design ahead" for the requirements of several generations of software which do not yet exist? For a device with a market life expectancy around 9-19 months it is not commercially reasonable to over-specify the hardware in a vague hope it might be needed for the future.

Or should enhancements in later versions be rejected if they are not compatible with legacy hardware?

This post reminded me of a news item I saw the other night. The guy that recorded the english male voice for Siri - did so about 5 years ago. They wouldn't tell him what it was for then, but he remembers he got paid very well by Apple and was happy for the work.

Five years ago. That's how long Apple have been thinking about/doing something about todays' phones.

[Tre Lawrence]

What it boils down to is there are a lot of people that want something for nothing.

They bought a phone with a particular OS on it and received no promises that their purchase would run the next generation of OS. And yet they still cry like they were somehow cheated.

I wonder if they hang out on car forums and bellyache how the new model year of the car they bought last year has newer and better features and the manufacturer should upgrade their car so it has the same features.

I see your point, but wouldn't you agree that implied upgradeability is a valuable feature to have? It certainly plays a part in my device purchases, as I like to keep my devices for long periods.

[SnoozerBold]

At least this time around RIM has been straight up since the start that OS 7 devices will not run BBX so there will be no surprises for people this time around. Though when BBX comes out it won't stop the complaining.

[Danf]

I see your point, but wouldn't you agree that implied upgradeability is a valuable feature to have? It certainly plays a part in my device purchases, as I like to keep my devices for long periods.

Guaranteed upgradeability would be even better. And I am with you, I'd much prefer to keep my device for a while and be able to benefit from OS upgrades. Fortunately that is what has happened to me so far. I bought and Os 5 device and was able to upgrade to OS6 .That wasn't a fluke, or luck, I did my research before buying so i knew it would be upgrade-able when I bought it.

[montelatici]

I dropped Blackberry a few years ago after I bought the first Storm. It was such a terrible phone. RIM is on its way out I'm afraid, it will be slow but the end is near. I tried both Android and Iphone and settled on Iphone for now. It does everything well, but I see that Android prices are really going down and the Iphone 4S is not as much of an upgrade from the 4 as it should be, so I could switch to Android since my company works with both.

[sam_b77]

This post reminded me of a news item I saw the other night. The guy that recorded the english male voice for Siri - did so about 5 years ago. They wouldn't tell him what it was for then, but he remembers he got paid very well by Apple and was happy for the work.

Five years ago. That's how long Apple have been thinking about/doing something about todays' phones.

Wow that's some spin you gave to the "News" article.

Apple didn't know sh!t about SIRI five yrs ago or 5 months back.
The person you are referring to is Daniel Briggs. He recorded the voice for a company called Scansoft which was later merged with Nuance Technologies. Nuance has made the SIRI voice was Apple.
Nuance has been powering BB voice recognition for quite some time now. I remember I had it on my 8800 as well.
Your point about Apple gazing into the future falls flat.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Branta]

all they needed to do was put more RAM in the damn phones. its not like it would take a an engineer that much to figure that out.

No... it needs a crystal ball. The software architect would have to commit to hardware requirements for a future OS version which doesn't even have a specification at that stage. In fact the "next generation OS" probably doesn't have a project and the software architect hasn't been appointed at the stage when device hardware is specified to run on the current OS. Then it needs Marketing to decide if the extra cost of hardware to meet a speculative Wild Assed Guess will have an adverse impact on the selling price and performance.

For my WAG... a phone like S2 would need to ship with minimum 4gig RAM to be sure it would support a new OS version 2-3-4 years down the road. The extra cost of hardware at design time would be prohibitive, and by the time it hit the shelf-edge price it would make the device uncompetitive.

Next troll please?

[sam_b77]

What Branta said!!! Aces...
I wonder why people don't criticise Apple for doing the same thing with Laptops.
At any given price a Macbook is far lower specd than any PC. Yet the software and hardware is designed to work together and it works well.

Just yesterday I went to have a look at the Samsung Galaxy Note. I was intrigued seeing it on TV and liked the concept.
The spec is 1.5Ghz Dual Core processor, yet the scrolling and picture handling of the 9900 was much better. RIM has made the hardware/software combo work well, and Apple does that too, hence both of them don't need to have the latest/fastest processor.

I feel Android is the Windows of mobile phones. As Android is not designed from the ground up to work with a particular hardware profile, they are not able to leverage the hardware for max performance. Hence you only see the Android makers and Android users shout out the Ghz and GBs.

I remember when I was using Windows, it was always waiting for more RAM and more GHz like the Android fans of today.
When I got my Macbook, I stopped caring about the fastest/latest. Even iPhone users don't focus on the hardware specs.

[howarmat]

im not saying 2-3-4 years. I am just saying it should be able to support a OS that is released 10 months after the device is released.

[Danf]

im not saying 2-3-4 years. I am just saying it should be able to support a OS that is released 10 months after the device is released.

I do not necessarily disagree with that but I think it is really dependent on how big of an upgrade the next OS is. If the next OS is just an incremental upgrade then yeah. While many see OS 7 as an 'incremental upgrade" the inclusion of TAT's "liquid graphics" (Which broke the theme builder application) with it's much higher hardware demands is what put OS7 out of the reach of the previous generation phones.