[TheMimic]

I've realized something this morning. Every morning, I like to start my day with some Rim news and hitting the forum. over the course of the last few months I noticed a trend that seems to be getting worse. No matter what Rim does, they are always in the wrong.

I'd like to start at the launch of the PB where it all seemed to go down hill. Everyone complained the PB was half baked and Rim should have made sure it was fully functional and had all the features before launching. Then they complained the product line was aging and that no new phones were being produced. Also that BB6 was crap and we had no apps nor app dev support.

So a few months ago, Rim start releasing a bunch of new phones. 9900, 9810, 9860. Apparently not good enough.

They put os7 on it. People complained that it wasn't QNX

They get going on the android player and everyone complains it doesn't run EVERY droid app.

They bring a bunch of tools for devs to produce new apps for bbx and took away a bunch of red tape for app world. People complained that they should be running android and that no one would want to write for BBX because there isn't enough PBs out there to justify it and as a result BBX won't be worth while. Further, since they have the android player, why would they bother writing bbx apps?

People complained the PB was overpriced for what it had. They drop the price to 199$ to get it in peoples hands and then people complain it's too cheap and they killing the value.

They got Saunders trying to get Dev support, no one cares.

They looking to release 2.0 in February to make sure it's fully baked and people are angry that it's taking too long.


I don't think they will ever satisfy anyone.

[sleepngbear]

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Some people just need to see their pearls of wisdom in a public place. I think it gives them a sense of purpose. My opinion, buy what you like; and if you don't like something you bought, it's nobody's fault but your own. I mean, why can't Dr. Pepper taste more like a soft drink I like.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[nyplaya610]

I personally am routing for RIM. PB is a great device, hoping 2.0 will make it better. As for the phones, they are great even though the OS needs work.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[GingerSnapsBack]

I think what a lot of people are mad about is that RIM takes so long to do anything and by the time they do, it's too late. OS7 should have been out last year, but they drug their feet and got left behind again. Apple and Android are marching boldly into the future and RIM is still at the starting line, tying their shoes.

If they really want to win audiences, have a handset that you can actually update rather than need a new one whenever a new OS comes out, like Apple does. All the phones from 3G on up could update to iOS5. None of the OS7 BBs will get BBX and so on. You'll need a new phone. That act alone would wow a lot of people, myself included. I don't get a new phone whenever the next it thing comes out. I get a new phone when the one I have breaks, but it'd be nice to be able to update my OS whenever a new one comes out, rather than be stuck with the OS preinstalled on my BB. With my Storm2, I'm forever stuck at OS5.

[TheMimic]

I think what a lot of people are mad about is that RIM takes so long to do anything and by the time they do, it's too late. OS7 should have been out last year, but they drug their feet and got left behind again. Apple and Android are marching boldly into the future and RIM is still at the starting line, tying their shoes.

If they really want to win audiences, have a handset that you can actually update rather than need a new one whenever a new OS comes out, like Apple does. All the phones from 3G on up could update to iOS5. None of the OS7 BBs will get BBX and so on. You'll need a new phone. That act alone would wow a lot of people, myself included. I don't get a new phone whenever the next it thing comes out. I get a new phone when the one I have breaks, but it'd be nice to be able to update my OS whenever a new one comes out, rather than be stuck with the OS preinstalled on my BB. With my Storm2, I'm forever stuck at OS5.

But can we agree that Rim has done alot i nthelast 6 months? I mean, between the os7, new devices, PB price cut and trying to get devs on board for bbx? I just don't know how realistic our expectations are. It seems we want everything yesterday. I'm not saying Rim has been quick on execution but they are at the very least getting on top of their main issues no?

[nyplaya610]

But can we agree that Rim has done alot i nthelast 6 months? I mean, between the os7, new devices, PB price cut and trying to get devs on board for bbx? I just don't know how realistic our expectations are. It seems we want everything yesterday. I'm not saying Rim has been quick on execution but they are at the very least getting on top of their main issues no?

Have you ever heard the saying "if you try to catch two rabits at once, how many do you catch?"

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[anon3396357]

OS7 is good, not great. Does effort mean anything if the results are "meh"? At the end of the day, consumers vote with their wallet. They're (mostly) gonna buy the product which gives best value for their money, not based on how hard a company tries to make a product.

[sam_b77]

I think this has to be with the way RIM is, in that they listen to what their customers want and even take feedback. This is how they started, with their first paging device and consequent phones, RIM execs met with the carriers and convinced them of the devices, took their feedback and implemented what they wanted.
As smartphones became consumer devices, RIM was slow to interact with their new customers (consumers not enterprise), but they still make the effort.
This has led everyone to believe that they can tell RIM to customze the devices for them.
Thing is, RIM listens. If they tried to tell Apple, then Apple would give them the finger and tell them to buy what Apple sells or to move. I guess Apple can do this at this time as they are the market leader. Also Steve Jobs had this philosophy, where he thought he knew best (and history has shown that he did).
How Apple transforms without Jobs is anyone's guess. Steve Jobs knew what was best, however it remains to be seen if someone else at Apple knows best. And if they don't, will they find people telling them what to do in a few years time?
But yes it is getting preposterous how people think they can lean on RIM to give them customised devices simply because RIM gives them more of a hearing than Apple does.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[GingerSnapsBack]

But can we agree that Rim has done alot i nthelast 6 months? I mean, between the os7, new devices, PB price cut and trying to get devs on board for bbx? I just don't know how realistic our expectations are. It seems we want everything yesterday. I'm not saying Rim has been quick on execution but they are at the very least getting on top of their main issues no?

They've tried. The PB price cut wasn't a "OMGWTFLOLBBQ!" moment for them. It's a last ditch effort for someone, anyone, to buy their PB. They're getting massacred by the iPads of the world and dropped prices to see if they could get someone to buy one. I myself have no need for a tablet so I doubt I'll ever buy one. Both my iPhone and my S2 suit my needs.

I don't want everything yesterday. I just want them to be able to get back their numbers. I read an Arkansas Democrat Gazette article yesterday that said RIM's share of the market was at 43%. Now it's 19%.

You have to have a subscription to the paper to see the article, but I've done screen shots and the article can be read below using the photobucket links.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/article1.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e.../artickle2.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/article3.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/article4.jpg

Point is, RIM spent time developing a music cloud and dragging their feet on releasing OS7 when they should have spent that time developing the wow factor when it comes to phones rather than throwing a bandaid on an artery wound.

[brucep1]

I'd like to start at the launch of the PB where it all seemed to go down hill. Everyone complained the PB was half baked and Rim should have made sure it was fully functional and had all the features before launching.

I'm not sure that consumers asking for a fully functional device is demanding too much.

Then they complained the product line was aging and that no new phones were being produced. Also that BB6 was crap and we had no apps nor app dev support.

BB7 is BB6. Heck, it was even called BB6.1 for a while before launch.

They still don't have app or dev support. I realize they are trying, but that doesn't change the fact.

So a few months ago, Rim start releasing a bunch of new phones. 9900, 9810, 9860. Apparently not good enought.

They put os7 on it. People complained that it wasn't QNX .

See above.

They bring a bunch of tools for devs to produce new apps for bbx and took away a bunch of red tape for app world. People complained that they should be running android and that no one would want to write for BBX because there isn't enough PBs out there to justify it and as a result BBX won't be worth while

People complained the PB was overpriced for what it had. They drop the price to 199$ to get it in peoples hands and then people complain it's too cheap and they killing the value.

It was overpriced, simply by looking at supply and demand. At $500, it had relatively little demand. At $199, it does. Of course, the people paying $500 are gonna feel slighted, whether it was their own faults is a different discussion.

They got Saunders trying to get Dev support, no one cares.

I'm very happy that this guy is actually straightforward and answering consumer questions. I think a lot of people are.

They looking to release 2.0 in February to make sure it's fully baked and people are angry that it's taking too long.

Don't even know where to start with this one. But if I say I'm gonna meet you for lunch at 1, and I show up at 9, wouldn't you be a little ticked?

I don't think they will ever satisfy anyone.

Not with the current decision making process.

[Clinto]

They've tried. The PB price cut wasn't a "OMGWTFLOLBBQ!" moment for them. It's a last ditch effort for someone, anyone, to buy their PB. They're getting massacred by the iPads of the world and dropped prices to see if they could get someone to buy one. I myself have no need for a tablet so I doubt I'll ever buy one. Both my iPhone and my S2 suit my needs.

I don't want everything yesterday. I just want them to be able to get back their numbers. I read an Arkansas Democrat Gazette article yesterday that said RIM's share of the market was at 43%. Now it's 19%.

You have to have a subscription to the paper to see the article, but I've done screen shots and the article can be read below using the photobucket links.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/article1.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e.../artickle2.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/article3.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/article4.jpg

Point is, RIM spent time developing a music cloud and dragging their feet on releasing OS7 when they should have spent that time developing the wow factor when it comes to phones rather than throwing a bandaid on an artery wound.

Wow Coldsunshine, you've really done a great job there on your explanation!
Thanks for providing the articles/fine details. Awesome post!

[West Coast Flavor]

They have been treating customers like dirt for years. Sloppy upgrades.. Fragmentation when it shouldn't be. Imagine if you bought a Torch 9800 last year and now you see the 9810.. sure the torch is a good phone.. but the 9810 smokes it.. and the fact os7 is on it exclusively ads insult to injury. Is that good business? Nope. Think about the promises that soon turned into lies with the playbook. Is that good business? Nope. Just a few short examples. But the bottom line is.. they deserve every ounce of criticism they receive! They been migrating loyal customers for to long!

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Danf]

It's worth keeping in mind that there is a vast difference between Rim and Apple and Android.

Rim has from the get go been aimed at the corporate market and only the past few years has tried to go after the consumer market. Apple and Android went for the consumer market from the get go and are now trying to break into the corporate market.

Corporate culture is generally conservative and Rim has reflected that in their business model not jumping onto the latest bandwagon or rushing to implement the current "Hot" feature(s).

Rim faces the daunting task of reinventing itself to stay relevant to corporate customers and to break into the consumer market. Frankly I have my doubts bout their success in that endeavor with the current leadership.

[GingerSnapsBack]

Wow Coldsunshine, you've really done a great job there on your explanation!
Thanks for providing the articles/fine details. Awesome post!

You're welcome.

It's worth keeping in mind that there is a vast difference between Rim and Apple and Android.

Rim has from the get go been aimed at the corporate market and only the past few years has tried to go after the consumer market. Apple and Android went for the consumer market from the get go and are now trying to break into the corporate market.

Corporate culture is generally conservative and Rim has reflected that in their business model not jumping onto the latest bandwagon or rushing to implement the current "Hot" feature(s).

Rim faces the daunting task of reinventing itself to stay relevant to corporate customers and to break into the consumer market. Frankly I have my doubts bout their success in that endeavor with the current leadership.

Just because RIM caters to businesspeople does not mean they are excused from releasing quality products on time and not ignoring the problems they have. Business people depend on their BBs as much as the average consumer does. I was crippled for 3 days when BIS went out and I had a BB brand paperweight. I'm not around computers all day long and depend on my phone to work right. They fixed it, but by then, it was too late. I got an iPhone about a month ago.

Many executives now at the hospital I work at have ditched their BBs in favor of Android or iPhone. Why? Support. Updates. The **** thing works when it is supposed to. Accessibility. The hospital used to not support anything other than BB for our Outlook emails, but now, they've added additional security features to include iPhone and Android because the vast majority of people I see on a daily basis here have iPhones or Androids.

Android and Apple both provide support to their business clients as well as their leisure clients. I use both my phones for a mix of both.

[TheMimic]

They've tried. The PB price cut wasn't a "OMGWTFLOLBBQ!" moment for them. It's a last ditch effort for someone, anyone, to buy their PB. They're getting massacred by the iPads of the world and dropped prices to see if they could get someone to buy one. I myself have no need for a tablet so I doubt I'll ever buy one. Both my iPhone and my S2 suit my needs.

I don't want everything yesterday. I just want them to be able to get back their numbers. I read an Arkansas Democrat Gazette article yesterday that said RIM's share of the market was at 43%. Now it's 19%.

You have to have a subscription to the paper to see the article, but I've done screen shots and the article can be read below using the photobucket links.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/article1.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e.../artickle2.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/article3.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/article4.jpg

Point is, RIM spent time developing a music cloud and dragging their feet on releasing OS7 when they should have spent that time developing the wow factor when it comes to phones rather than throwing a bandaid on an artery wound.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the term market share. People don't understand that the market is growing. Just because rims piece of the pie is smaller than it used to be, that doesn't mean its not growing. the pie is just getting bigger and as such the piece get bigger. Didn't they increase their # of users by 40% since last year?

And as for the last ditch effort for the PB. Every major retailer is sold out of the 16 gig and many sold out on 32.

Future Shop Canada 16GB

Future Shop Canada 32GB

Future Shop Canada 64GB

Best Buy Canada 16GB

Best Buy Canada 32GB

Best Buy Canada 64GB

Staples Canada 16GB

Staples Canada 32GB

Staples Canada 64GB

The Source Canada 16GB

The Source Canada 32GB

The Source Canada 64GB

Sears Canada 16GB

Sears Canada 32GB

Sears Canada 64GB

Future Shop USA 16GB

Future Shop USA 32GB

Future Shop 64GB

Best Buy USA 16GB

Best Buy USA 32GB

Staples USA 16GB

Staples USA 32GB

Staples USA 64GB

[joeldf]

I don't think the PlayBook itself was half-baked. It was the OS simply because of the lack of PIM features - email in particular.

"Oh, that will come later in an update... soon..."

Of course, people were thinking a couple weeks, maybe a month...

A whole YEAR later, and still nothing? That is kind of pathetic.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[GingerSnapsBack]

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the term market share. People don't understand that the market is growing. Just because rims piece of the pie is smaller than it used to be, that doesn't mean its not growing. the pie is just getting bigger and as such the piece get bigger. Didn't they increase their # of users by 40% since last year?

I can't answer the market share thing as far as gained or loss. My guess would be here in America, it's a loss. Even in the article I linked screenshot, it said RIM's market share went down significantly dropping from either 43% or 44% to 19%. It may be growing but not nearly at the rate Android and Apple are.

I know in places like India and the UK, BBs are very popular and even in some parts, it's considered a status symbol. All I know is I see a ratio of probably 15:1 as far as iPhones to BBs here in the wild. In my office out of an office of 50+ people, two have BBs. I volunteer for an animal rescue org and over the weekend, we had an adoption event. Out of the 11 of us there, all but 3 had iPhones. One had a dumbphone, one had a BB and the last doesn't own a cell phone. Shocking, I know. I love my Storm2, but I hate being stuck in 2009 with a device that can't be updated.

As for your links, I noticed the vast majority were Canadian. Would make sense that a Canadian branded product would be sold out in Canada.

[Danf]

Just because RIM caters to businesspeople does not mean they are excused from releasing quality products on time and not ignoring the problems they have. Business people depend on their BBs as much as the average consumer does.

Don't believe I ever stated that Rim was excused from anything. My point is actually more in regards to your angst that Rim hasn't released something to "wow" you. As if that were the reason for Rim's existence in the first place.

[BBThemes]

Don't even know where to start with this one. But if I say I'm gonna meet you for lunch at 1, and I show up at 9, wouldn't you be a little ticked?

haha yea but (to carry on your analagy) would you rather turn up at 1 with no clothes on, or 9 fully dressed. they could release OS2 now with the dev beta, but there would be no PIM so.......

as for marketshare, RIM lost % worldwide, however gained in unit sales, so TheMimic is totally correct, RIM is growing, simply not at the rate of the market. Microsoft, conversely lost % (yes, their % is now a tiny measly 1.5%) and lost units, but WP7 is awesome...right?

[anthogag]

The people in this thread telling us how 'bad' RIM is are iPhone and Android users....go figure

Every tablet is up against the iPad The pb wasn't selling at $500, it was lowered, people bought it, more great apps will come to App World......

BB phones are better than iToys and Hemor(And)rhoids

[brucep1]

The people in this thread telling us how 'bad' RIM is are iPhone and Android users....go figure :

I have a Blackberry, iPhone, and Playbook that I use every day.

Every tablet is up against the iPad The pb wasn't selling at $500, it was lowered, people bought it, more great apps will come to App World......:

I have no idea what your point is with this statement.

BB phones are better than iToys and Hemor(And)rhoids

Great addition to the forum.

[TheMimic]

Lets try not to turn this into a iRant or RIM vs Apple please. I want to simply focus on Rim and if there's anything they can do in the next 6 months that will make things better for them.

[GingerSnapsBack]

Don't believe I ever stated that Rim was excused from anything. My point is actually more in regards to your angst that Rim hasn't released something to "wow" you. As if that were the reason for Rim's existence in the first place.

RIM isn't on this earth to wow me? WTF? Next you're gonna tell me Santa Claus isn't real, the Tooth Fairy is a drunk and Kermit the Frog wears dresses.

RIM needs to wow more than just me. I'm not that selfish of a woman or am I that self centered. You can't release OS6.1 and expect people to drop their iPhones or Androids and flood their WSPs and request BBs. That is my point.

The people in this thread telling us how 'bad' RIM is are iPhone and Android users....go figure

Sorry, but I use both a BB and an iPhone. I'm not even gonna comment on the iToy remark.

[Chrisy]

They can release PBOS 2.0 ahead of schedule, and bug free with all the improvements and features promised.

They can release a BBX device for the holidays or before schedule, complete and bug free. Free of major bugs anyway.

They can fix the 9900/9930 bricking issue this month. Add mobile Hotspot in next OS update before the new year.

Will they though?

[omi10468]

For me, my personal experience with the 9900 has been "Right" for me. I haven't had any of the problems that many are having (knock on wood) and I am in love with my 9900! I can't speak on the playbook but I was thinking about picking one up with all the discounts.