[mike71857]

The so called experts were dead wrong about RIM being in trouble. Sales are surging especially overseas. The stock is way up recently. They're not going out of business.

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[Fubaz]

Yeah, most analytics focus on USA or North America

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[the_sandman_454]

The so called experts were dead wrong about RIM being in trouble. Sales are surging especially overseas. The stock is way up recently. They're not going out of business.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Look at reality though, they are losing high end consumer device sales, at least in the US.

I agree, they're not going out of business, but they aren't as strong as they would be now if they had been producing truly high end/cutting edge consumer devices with all the traditional BB benefits plus advanced multimedia/web capabilty starting around the time the iPhone came out.

For those folks who say the current models are fine, RIM should continue producing those, but add a line of bleeding edge consumer devices that still have BB functionality.

[stackberry369]

The problem is:BB phones are perceived to be business devices only,RIM needs to change the way bb's are looked at without being called sellouts by their current base of users.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[the_sandman_454]

The problem is:BB phones are perceived to be business devices only,RIM needs to change the way bb's are looked at without being called sellouts by their current base of users.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

They're perceived as business devices because they have virtually no multimedia capabilities vs the other device brands that can do at least an adequate job as business devices, but kick backside with multimedia/web/apps/entertainment.

As I mentioned, the obvious solution is keep their current product lines as-is but make another separate product line with current hardware and such.

[hootyhoo]

They are going down the same path that nokia has taken. Evetually as they lose the market in the us, canada, and Europe, they will be stuck selling cheap phones in emerging markets. While they're doing fine now, like nokia, their profits will erode. IMHO.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[brothamoveson]

I don't think they will go the way of Nokia. There will be a resurrgance of RIM in the US.

[hootyhoo]

That's what they kept saying about Palm.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[BlackBerryMonk]

RIM is stronger now than they have ever been. They have over 40 millions subscribers, when just 8 years ago, in 2002, they had 2 million subscribers. They market themselves to businesses and advertise a truly encrypted and secure network for sending email traffic over a corporate infrastructure. No one else does this; not Android and certainly not Apple. RIM has just started getting into the "toy market" of making devices for consumers, such as the Torch and the Playbook, but they have built their huge corporation on the secure-email-infrastructure idea for businesses and it has worked very well for them. I think we will see more consumer "toy" products, like the iPhone, in the months to come, but if they decide not to do this, I hardly think it will hurt their bottom line since their subscribers and sales keep growing.

[_StephenBB81]

Look at reality though, they are losing high end consumer device sales, at least in the US.

I agree, they're not going out of business, but they aren't as strong as they would be now if they had been producing truly high end/cutting edge consumer devices with all the traditional BB benefits plus advanced multimedia/web capabilty starting around the time the iPhone came out.

For those folks who say the current models are fine, RIM should continue producing those, but add a line of bleeding edge consumer devices that still have BB functionality.

High end cutting edge devices cost more to build, cost more to research, and utilize less of the same components, all things that are negative to increased profit margins.

NOW I do agree that it would be nice for RIM to have devices that have more horse power, and that the function of OS6 should have come out with OS5 but RIM is in the business to make money, and they are very good at that business, vast majority of world wide users don't need the media rich experience of the iPhone/Android, and that is who RIM has targeted, they'll attack the deep pocketed media hungry crowd with the Playbook, the loud mouthed no money consumer is the last thing they are targeting, RIM doesn't seem to be after the cult following in the consumer end, their advertising seems to Still be geared toward the 25+40 demographic, not te 18-25 that the iphone is.

[_StephenBB81]

They are going down the same path that nokia has taken. Evetually as they lose the market in the us, canada, and Europe, they will be stuck selling cheap phones in emerging markets. While they're doing fine now, like nokia, their profits will erode. IMHO.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Nokia fell into the game of selling low margin devices, RIM has been increasing margins, NOT decreasing them, though I suspect next year will see a decreased margin unless they find a way to sell the Playbook direct as I suspect not as deep of margins will have been built into it.

RIM is not losing Market share in Canada as quickly as it has in the US, with multi teared dataplans RIM phones offer advantages over other smartphones in monthly data. the Torch in Canada has been a solid selling devices, actually having weighting lists!!

[grover5]

If RIM ever does fail, there are a large number of folks on this site that will be searching for ways to fill their lives outside of forecasting the demise of the blackberry smart phone.

[the_sandman_454]

High end cutting edge devices cost more to build, cost more to research, and utilize less of the same components, all things that are negative to increased profit margins.

Other than corporate customers though, at least in the US, it appears that sales are dropping. On Verizon for example, sales have tanked. When they drop the prices to boost sales, etc that will hurt Verizon if they're still paying RIM full prices for the devices. RIM devices won't command the $200 pricetag they've been trying to sell them at, at least in the consumer market where individuals see they can get much higher performing devices with better multimedia capabilities for the same price.

NOW I do agree that it would be nice for RIM to have devices that have more horse power, and that the function of OS6 should have come out with OS5 but RIM is in the business to make money, and they are very good at that business, vast majority of world wide users don't need the media rich experience of the iPhone/Android, and that is who RIM has targeted, they'll attack the deep pocketed media hungry crowd with the Playbook, the loud mouthed no money consumer is the last thing they are targeting, RIM doesn't seem to be after the cult following in the consumer end, their advertising seems to Still be geared toward the 25+40 demographic, not te 18-25 that the iphone is.

I don't know what you're talking about with the "loud mouthed no money consumer" bit. There are quite a lot of people not fitting that description utilizing iPhones and Androids.

Playbook is absolutely worthless to someone like me. If I wanted to carry a larger device, i'd just grab my laptop... There are more and more people all the time realizing they want their smartphones to be smarter, more powerful and able to cover more roles than ever before.

Funny that you mention money, as the device RIM makes, years behind the competition are destined for the bargain bin in the US. It looks to me as if the no money consumer folks will be buying these and not the high end devices out there...

[_StephenBB81]

Other than corporate customers though, at least in the US, it appears that sales are dropping. On Verizon for example, sales have tanked. When they drop the prices to boost sales, etc that will hurt Verizon if they're still paying RIM full prices for the devices. RIM devices won't command the $200 pricetag they've been trying to sell them at, at least in the consumer market where individuals see they can get much higher performing devices with better multimedia capabilities for the same price.



I don't know what you're talking about with the "loud mouthed no money consumer" bit. There are quite a lot of people not fitting that description utilizing iPhones and Androids.

Playbook is absolutely worthless to someone like me. If I wanted to carry a larger device, i'd just grab my laptop... There are more and more people all the time realizing they want their smartphones to be smarter, more powerful and able to cover more roles than ever before.

Funny that you mention money, as the device RIM makes, years behind the competition are destined for the bargain bin in the US. It looks to me as if the no money consumer folks will be buying these and not the high end devices out there...

54% of RIM's sales are Still Canada and the US, the media says their sales are shrinking in the US, when in fact it is just Market share is shrinking sales are still strong.

The "loud mouthed no money consumer" is the consumer who must buy on contract, will complain about every little thing about their phone they purchased, but wont do anything about it, I am not saying every Android/iphone is one, I am saying that the Loud mouthed consumer is who Android is targeting with flash and bang! they are too fragmented to be targeting business, and don't have the following of Apple, your loudest of loud are buying the Androids.

Playbook might be useless to you, and will be to many, but it will be useful to someone like me, and useful to many others, the iPad proved their IS a tablet market out there, and RIM is looking to use the Tablet as revenue stream from those who already like RIM products, it will be their media toy.

As for your views of where the devices will go, and mine, neither of us can be right, but my experience with the consumer always tells me that the consumer with the least amount of money always wants the biggest bang for their buck, and shops for hype/deals, so my feelings are that RIM's devices are going to fall into Middle Class life, they will be functional, and not expensive to replace, the person who has other things in life as flash and doesn't need their phone to be flashy,

I am hopeful RIM in 2011 does make the flashy phone, I want to see a Torch remake with EVO 4G like stats, Running QNX, or a 9000 remake similarly, do I truly expect to see that? no not really, RIM is Profit margin driven, HTC, Motorola, Samsung are NOT profit margin driven, at least they don't appear to be looking at their financials.

[the_sandman_454]

54% of RIM's sales are Still Canada and the US, the media says their sales are shrinking in the US, when in fact it is just Market share is shrinking sales are still strong.

Just think how much stronger their sales could have been if they even marginally improved their device offerings though? I think they made a serious mistake in the beginning by not directly attacking iPhone and Android devices right away. Who knows, if they'd done well enough, Android might not have had a sufficient chance to blossom and flourish like it is today.

The "loud mouthed no money consumer" is the consumer who must buy on contract, will complain about every little thing about their phone they purchased, but wont do anything about it, I am not saying every Android/iphone is one, I am saying that the Loud mouthed consumer is who Android is targeting with flash and bang! they are too fragmented to be targeting business, and don't have the following of Apple, your loudest of loud are buying the Androids.

How many consumers do you know who don't buy on contract? I don't know of any in person. The only ones I can think of who wouldn't buy on contract and/or would buy new devices while still under contract with something else are the true technophiles who are unlikely to be BB users since they aren't exactly making much a technophile might be interested in. Surely not enough to get someone excited enough to buy a new one outside of a contract.

Interesting that I don't hear a ton of griping about Android. Infact, it seems to me some BB users seem to fit your complaining format better than Android users. Especially the BB fanatics who try Android for a few minutes and gripe up and down the forums about how hard/inefficient/whatever the device is without investing the time to learn new shortcuts on a new to them OS.

Playbook might be useless to you, and will be to many, but it will be useful to someone like me, and useful to many others, the iPad proved their IS a tablet market out there, and RIM is looking to use the Tablet as revenue stream from those who already like RIM products, it will be their media toy.

It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out I suppose.

As for your views of where the devices will go, and mine, neither of us can be right, but my experience with the consumer always tells me that the consumer with the least amount of money always wants the biggest bang for their buck, and shops for hype/deals, so my feelings are that RIM's devices are going to fall into Middle Class life, they will be functional, and not expensive to replace, the person who has other things in life as flash and doesn't need their phone to be flashy,

Who doesn't want the biggest bang for their buck? I imagine if you chose people at random and asked them, chances are you'd find most everybody wants more functionality vs less functionality.

Most of the Android users I know fit into the middle class. Many of them, like me, are former BB users who grew tired waiting for RIM to hit a home run. I don't think the same old rehashed device will be enough to keep sales strong, and we'll eventually see sales and marketshare slip further.

I am hopeful RIM in 2011 does make the flashy phone, I want to see a Torch remake with EVO 4G like stats, Running QNX, or a 9000 remake similarly, do I truly expect to see that? no not really, RIM is Profit margin driven, HTC, Motorola, Samsung are NOT profit margin driven, at least they don't appear to be looking at their financials.

I suspect the other companies are quite satisfied making a smaller profit but moving more devices. I haven't delved into their financials much though, as I'm not interested in investing in them.

There is nothing wrong with making a high powered device. I see no harm at all in giving consumers what they're demanding. I suspect they will be able to be fairly competitive in the consumer market if they make a real assault on the competition. Either that or they'll continue to lose the consumer market as customers find they realize RIM apparently doesn't want them as customers.

[BoldtotheMax]

Sandman, I just want to know what the difference is that makes your phone so much media friendly over a BB?

I have had andriods, mytouch3G and a Cliq and messed around on many new ones. I don't see any difference. Mine is just as fast on the browser since os6 came out and I can view pics fine, listen to music, just like you can...

So what is so different besides screen size and resolution? Yeah you have the bigger processor, but really needs it to support all that jazz to where ours don't and skims along just fine.

I know you had a lot of issues with your Tour, but maybe you just had a bad one?

You are really starting to sound like just another user that has to glow about his phone does this so much better...tis a shame...

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[_StephenBB81]

Just think how much stronger their sales could have been if they even marginally improved their device offerings though? I think they made a serious mistake in the beginning by not directly attacking iPhone and Android devices right away. Who knows, if they'd done well enough, Android might not have had a sufficient chance to blossom and flourish like it is today.

This is the age old question in business, where to you hedge your bets, battle hard and go for Revenue over profit, or stick to your plans and focus on profit, BOTH methods are proven, and both methods are valid, RIM chose to focus on profit margins over revenue, and it has worked for them giving them a larger cash flow, a larger cash flow from focusing on profits has allowed them to make these acquisitions without bleeding their cash supply.
RIM is the only contender that doesn't have an alternative revenue stream to generate cash flow.

How many consumers do you know who don't buy on contract? I don't know of any in person. The only ones I can think of who wouldn't buy on contract and/or would buy new devices while still under contract with something else are the true technophiles who are unlikely to be BB users since they aren't exactly making much a technophile might be interested in. Surely not enough to get someone excited enough to buy a new one outside of a contract.

Leave the US you'll find far more people buying off of Contract.

I know MORE people who buy Near full retail than who buy on FULL contract, but I come from Canada and our Contracts are 3 year terms, so those in the Middle to Upper class, purchase new phones every 18-24 months with $50-$200 off of Full Retail in South America most operate on prepaid service again paying full retail for their mobile phones, and the Prepaid full retail market is also large in Europe

Interesting that I don't hear a ton of griping about Android. Infact, it seems to me some BB users seem to fit your complaining format better than Android users. Especially the BB fanatics who try Android for a few minutes and gripe up and down the forums about how hard/inefficient/whatever the device is without investing the time to learn new shortcuts on a new to them OS.

I am not saying that RIM doesn't have the loud mouthed consumer, I'm saying they are not catering to them, Android IS, so Android should have less complaining from that market than both Apple and RIM,

Who doesn't want the biggest bang for their buck? I imagine if you chose people at random and asked them, chances are you'd find most everybody wants more functionality vs less functionality.

I think "bang for their buck" was a bad term, I more Mean they want as much as possible for as little as possible, I do not need a GPS unit on my phone, as I will gladly pay every 2-3 years to buy a new $300-$400 unit for my Truck, and I'd never use my Mobile phone GPS as a chart plotter on my boat, I choose functionality over cost, I would sooner have 5 items do everything perfect than a single device that I must compromise features just to save money, I may have spent 5-10 times as much, but each device pays for it's self in the long run, consumers like me, are not Android consumers,

Most of the Android users I know fit into the middle class. Many of them, like me, are former BB users who grew tired waiting for RIM to hit a home run. I don't think the same old rehashed device will be enough to keep sales strong, and we'll eventually see sales and marketshare slip further.



I suspect the other companies are quite satisfied making a smaller profit but moving more devices. I haven't delved into their financials much though, as I'm not interested in investing in them.

There is nothing wrong with making a high powered device. I see no harm at all in giving consumers what they're demanding. I suspect they will be able to be fairly competitive in the consumer market if they make a real assault on the competition. Either that or they'll continue to lose the consumer market as customers find they realize RIM apparently doesn't want them as customers.

As mentioned earlier in this post, you have 2 schools of thought as to what makes a business successful, and how to grow your business, Profit vs Revenue, and what is the right balance, RIM is doing well, will they continue to drop functional yet unexciting products? I certainly hope not, I hope they come out with a "home run" device rather than a bunch of "single base hits"

[mike71857]

Sandman, I just want to know what the difference is that makes your phone so much media friendly over a BB?

I have had andriods, mytouch3G and a Cliq and messed around on many new ones. I don't see any difference. Mine is just as fast on the browser since os6 came out and I can view pics fine, listen to music, just like you can...

So what is so different besides screen size and resolution? Yeah you have the bigger processor, but really needs it to support all that jazz to where ours don't and skims along just fine.

I know you had a lot of issues with your Tour, but maybe you just had a bad one?

You are really starting to sound like just another user that has to glow about his phone does this so much better...tis a shame...

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

I agree, I love my Curve. 3G, GPS, great speaker, crystal clear calls, music sounds great on it. The screen is larger, brighter and clearer than my old Sony Ericsson. It's durable and very dependable. My battery lasts all day with heavy use. I'm going to ignore people talking about other platforms. Why don't they go on an Android Forum and sing it's praises there?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Rootbrian]

For the ones hoping rim tailers to the consumers, well, it's completely up to the company to decides where and when it does. Aside from that, if blackberry commercials are on television and RIM's devices are still being used everywhere, the company is at no risk of 'failing'. My $0.02

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[the_sandman_454]

Sandman, I just want to know what the difference is that makes your phone so much media friendly over a BB?

I have had andriods, mytouch3G and a Cliq and messed around on many new ones. I don't see any difference. Mine is just as fast on the browser since os6 came out and I can view pics fine, listen to music, just like you can...

So what is so different besides screen size and resolution? Yeah you have the bigger processor, but really needs it to support all that jazz to where ours don't and skims along just fine.

I know you had a lot of issues with your Tour, but maybe you just had a bad one?

You are really starting to sound like just another user that has to glow about his phone does this so much better...tis a shame...

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Part of my argument is pricepoint. RIM (well, through the carriers, and set by whatever price they sell to the carriers for) is trying to sell older devices for new/cutting edge device prices. That's hurting their US sales on VZW I'm sure. I may have upgraded to a Bold rather than my Droid 2 if Bold wasn't selling for the same price.

I mean here's another basic difference: 512mb internal memory on Bold vs my D2's 8gb, and the ability if I run out of room on that, to use the sd card for apps. Will I use all of that memory, well who knows, but it's there.

For the same price, would you buy a pc with a slower processor, a 60gb hard drive; or a faster processor, 1 TB hard drive and the same RAM? That was part of what settled the decision for me. If I'm paying a premium price for something, I want the latest and greatest. Doesn't matter if it is a TV, computer or smartphone, I want the most value for my dollar and that means, to me anyway, the newest hardware.

Sure the berry can play MP3s and do some of the other stuff. It doesn't sound like OS6 is quite ready for prime time on devices other than what it rolled out on though, for one, so is still not an option for most consumers, and therefore, they're stuck with the previous browser.

[the_sandman_454]

This is the age old question in business, where to you hedge your bets, battle hard and go for Revenue over profit, or stick to your plans and focus on profit, BOTH methods are proven, and both methods are valid, RIM chose to focus on profit margins over revenue, and it has worked for them giving them a larger cash flow, a larger cash flow from focusing on profits has allowed them to make these acquisitions without bleeding their cash supply.
RIM is the only contender that doesn't have an alternative revenue stream to generate cash flow.

At least they should have the playbook at some time in the future to lean on too.

Leave the US you'll find far more people buying off of Contract.

I know MORE people who buy Near full retail than who buy on FULL contract, but I come from Canada and our Contracts are 3 year terms, so those in the Middle to Upper class, purchase new phones every 18-24 months with $50-$200 off of Full Retail in South America most operate on prepaid service again paying full retail for their mobile phones, and the Prepaid full retail market is also large in Europe

I'm somewhat surprised that sales do so well there then. I would have thought that more consumers would have preferred more performance per dollar. Then again in most of the places you mention, unlimited data isn't as prevalent is it? Without unlimited data, it is harder to take advantage of the better web stuff I suppose. I guess the compression of data helps a bit in those situations too come to think of it...

I am not saying that RIM doesn't have the loud mouthed consumer, I'm saying they are not catering to them, Android IS, so Android should have less complaining from that market than both Apple and RIM,

Many of the so-called loud mouthed consumers have already started to switch to devices from companies that will listen. Doesn't sound like that has hurt RIM much at this point, and hopefully it doesn't in the future. If the needs of more customers change, eventually companies need to reconfigure their decisions/products to meet the market's needs in a more optimal fashion.

I've honestly been surprised at how little the "we're going to make things how we want regardless of the market or competition" has hurt them. It will be interesting to see if they can continue to do that.

I think "bang for their buck" was a bad term, I more Mean they want as much as possible for as little as possible, I do not need a GPS unit on my phone, as I will gladly pay every 2-3 years to buy a new $300-$400 unit for my Truck, and I'd never use my Mobile phone GPS as a chart plotter on my boat, I choose functionality over cost, I would sooner have 5 items do everything perfect than a single device that I must compromise features just to save money, I may have spent 5-10 times as much, but each device pays for it's self in the long run, consumers like me, are not Android consumers,

I think many consumers are value conscious. After using Google Maps with Google Navigation side by side against a stand alone GPS and my phone did just as good a job as the stand alone unit, I simply can't see purchasing a new stand alone. I'm paying for a smartphone already, why not get one that offers more functionality.

The whole point of smartphones is to be able to have more functionality in less space. How else can I carry a GPS, camera, fully functional web browser, day planner, portable wifi hotspot, and any number of the other thousands of things you can replace or do without during the course of a normal day in a pocket?

Smartphones and the future of smartphones involves a whole lot more than just email and a calendar. This isn't the 90's anymore.

Does the smartphone work as well as a stand alone unit? Well, perhaps not. Does it work well enough to let the consumer avoid the hassle and expense of buying a stand alone device? Well, there's a good chance of it. My phone's voice nav (Google, not carrier provided) got me through Boston, Philly, and a number of other cities I wasn't familiar with. That's more than good enough for me.

As mentioned earlier in this post, you have 2 schools of thought as to what makes a business successful, and how to grow your business, Profit vs Revenue, and what is the right balance, RIM is doing well, will they continue to drop functional yet unexciting products? I certainly hope not, I hope they come out with a "home run" device rather than a bunch of "single base hits"

A home run would be nice, or a price reduction...

[howarmat]

At least they should have the playbook at some time in the future to lean on too.



I'm somewhat surprised that sales do so well there then. I would have thought that more consumers would have preferred more performance per dollar. Then again in most of the places you mention, unlimited data isn't as prevalent is it? Without unlimited data, it is harder to take advantage of the better web stuff I suppose. I guess the compression of data helps a bit in those situations too come to think of it...



Many of the so-called loud mouthed consumers have already started to switch to devices from companies that will listen. Doesn't sound like that has hurt RIM much at this point, and hopefully it doesn't in the future. If the needs of more customers change, eventually companies need to reconfigure their decisions/products to meet the market's needs in a more optimal fashion.

I've honestly been surprised at how little the "we're going to make things how we want regardless of the market or competition" has hurt them. It will be interesting to see if they can continue to do that.



I think many consumers are value conscious. After using Google Maps with Google Navigation side by side against a stand alone GPS and my phone did just as good a job as the stand alone unit, I simply can't see purchasing a new stand alone. I'm paying for a smartphone already, why not get one that offers more functionality.

The whole point of smartphones is to be able to have more functionality in less space. How else can I carry a GPS, camera, fully functional web browser, day planner, portable wifi hotspot, and any number of the other thousands of things you can replace or do without during the course of a normal day in a pocket?

Smartphones and the future of smartphones involves a whole lot more than just email and a calendar. This isn't the 90's anymore.

Does the smartphone work as well as a stand alone unit? Well, perhaps not. Does it work well enough to let the consumer avoid the hassle and expense of buying a stand alone device? Well, there's a good chance of it. My phone's voice nav (Google, not carrier provided) got me through Boston, Philly, and a number of other cities I wasn't familiar with. That's more than good enough for me.



A home run would be nice, or a price reduction...

i feel the same. Google maps on android power phones pretty much beats 95% of the GPS units out there for most conditions. Its ultra fast and updated constantly. Its integration with other apps, contacts etc on the phone is perfect. This is one thing i was floored with when i got my Incredible.

[belfastdispatcher]

Google maps navigation is fine if you live in a good 3G signal or you never go abroad, us it on gprs and google maps will be pulling data almost constantly, all your calls will be going to answer phone and if abroad, you'll end up with a huge bill.

[the_sandman_454]

Google maps navigation is fine if you live in a good 3G signal or you never go abroad, us it on gprs and google maps will be pulling data almost constantly, all your calls will be going to answer phone and if abroad, you'll end up with a huge bill.

(Edited to add: I am posting from the perspective as someone who is a US resident and purchasing products intended for the US market)

Most standalone GPS units (at least the couple year old ones I've used which have been purchased in the US) only have the US in them anyway, and most parts of the US that the majority of people travel in where they need a GPS with turn by turn is going to likely have decent 3g coverage. One would need to either purchase a GPS unit from the place you're traveling to or at least purchase maps for the specific places you wish to navigate in outside of the US.

People in other places or truly out in the boonies where there's no 3g signal aren't going to be able to effectively use Google navigation. These times, things known as "maps" are helpful.

I suppose if I was traveling abroad, I would consider renting a car with built in GPS.

How often are most people going to travel abroad? Everyone needs to decide for themselves what features they need or find useful. For a lot of us though, the built in navigation (free btw) is good enough.

As long as you understand the tradeoffs between using features on smartphones vs stand alone devices, you can make a wise choice as to what you need. That's what everything is, just a series of tradeoffs.

Example:

Using the gps nav on the phone is free and good as long as decent service is available, and you're always going to have it with you.

Using a standalone GPS navi unit works even without a decent signal on the cell network, but is an added expense to procure it, and it is something extra to carry around with you (I try to not leave expensive electronics in my vehicles)... You also have to make sure it has the right maps for where you're at. If it doesn't have them, that could be an additional expense to purchase the maps you need.

[corymcnutt]

Is RIM looking down the road at business trends as more older people retire and the younger executives, that grew up with "more," start demanding more from their company phone other than "functionality?" Right or wrong, these younger workers will demand more than a great communication device and it seems like iPhone and even more so, Android and Windows based phones, are poised to move in and move BB out. I hope RIM will start to adapt to the changing world.