09-21-11 01:23 PM
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  1. _StephenBB81's Avatar

    You haven't given me any decent reason why the phone should be that high.
    A reason was given
    you choose to dismiss it because form factor is not a factor in your decision process.

    The BEST device of it's form factor can demand a higher premium.
    09-19-11 08:29 AM
  2. Jaguarr40's Avatar
    Phone prices are getting ridiculous! $250 for the Thunderbolt I nearly passed out!

    What happened to the $99 price point? Are the newer phones really that much more to build or subsidize?
    Just to prove a point to your question Chrisy(I don't mean in a bad way) and let's just take the Iphone... When you have to companies producing 85% and 15% ofthe phones being shipped at least the new iPhone 5 and they are in the millions look at the cost of this phone ($199.00 for a 16gb) and it has been that way forever it is because they know how to market it, produce lots of advertising so therefore with the money Apple has they can afford a great pricepoint and always will.

    I forgot the comment that was made on here that the new OS 7 phone are so much is because they are "Premium" phone. I disagree, I think they are so much better than previous phone but enough of Premium status to warrant the price point.

    Yes I upgraded and got $30.00 off for NE2 but Premium to me means many kinks in the hardware and OS have been refined but they have not so that is why so many other phones can warrant lower pricing and or instant or mail in rebates. Does not seem that BB carriers have gotten away from that now.
    Last edited by Jaguarr40; 09-19-11 at 12:03 PM.
    09-19-11 11:47 AM
  3. Jaguarr40's Avatar
    Inflation? Profit margins? Perception?

    In Ontario the minimum wage has increased more than 60% in the last 6 years, if you look at things like that pricing going up is unfortunately easy to understand

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Ahhhh I get it now... Since your minimuim wage went up 60% the carriers got into it and said let's go ahead and gauge everyone on BBs pricing because people can pay more since their wage increase.... Of course I am just making light of this and don't mean anything but it sure sounds like it.... The more you make the more we can charge for our BBs new "Premium" OS 7 devices. That does not sound like sound economics to me if they want to see as many units as the carriers seem to be selling Android and iPhones.
    09-19-11 11:54 AM
  4. Jaguarr40's Avatar
    Wow! If an extra $100 every two years stresses your bank account, you probably shouldn't have a cell phone at all.

    Don't want to pay all that money up front? try saving $5 a month over the length of your next contract and you'll have enough to choose any phone you want and not be restricted by the weight of your bank account.

    Oh, that's right. Some people don't know how to save money anymore (as evidenced by the state of the economy).
    I don't disagree about the $100.00 and the bank account but some people it does stress them out. You also have to consider that since most people no longer are able to buy unlimited Data this may also hurt since their bill will be higher for less data. It is just up to the individual and how much they can afford.
    09-19-11 12:00 PM
  5. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Ahhhh I get it now... Since your minimuim wage went up 60% the carriers got into it and said let's go ahead and gauge everyone on BBs pricing because people can pay more since their wage increase.... Of course I am just making light of this and don't mean anything but it sure sounds like it.... The more you make the more we can charge for our BBs new "Premium" OS 7 devices. That does not sound like sound economics to me if they want to see as many units as the carriers seem to be selling Android and iPhones.
    Actually it was more to do with the cost of doing business going up which is why the value of a discount price point as gone up
    products that once got discounted to $99 are now discounted to $199 based on the economics,
    you don't want me to ACTUALLY go into this. with talks about raw material costs, wage costs, shipping costs, and such, since I get to do that during work.
    it isn't Just RIM, it is all the manufacturers.

    as for your opinion of what Premium means, there isn't a Better CandyBar Keyboard device on the market which makes the 9900 a premium, I don't rate the 9850/60 as a Premium, and if you look at it's pricepoint, nor do the Carriers.
    09-19-11 12:04 PM
  6. Jaguarr40's Avatar
    Actually it was more to do with the cost of doing business going up which is why the value of a discount price point as gone up
    products that once got discounted to $99 are now discounted to $199 based on the economics,
    you don't want me to ACTUALLY go into this. with talks about raw material costs, wage costs, shipping costs, and such, since I get to do that during work.
    it isn't Just RIM, it is all the manufacturers.

    as for your opinion of what Premium means, there isn't a Better CandyBar Keyboard device on the market which makes the 9900 a premium, I don't rate the 9850/60 as a Premium, and if you look at it's pricepoint, nor do the Carriers.
    Without a doubt I agree 100% wit hyour last sentence. I just truly have to beleive that if RIM and the carriers cared to put out and sell more ofthe new OS 7 devices they would do alot more advertising than they do as opposed to other phones be it Android or IOS but it does not seem that way and with the exception of seeing adds on websites you don't see nearly the adds on other media like TV as you do for these other phones.

    I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the thought of Premium because of the keyboard when there are so many more other devices being sold be it with a virtual keyboard that is accurate and works well and you have to admit even with the Torch OS 7 as well.

    No argument out of me on this point you are trying to make as much as that I am just trying to make my point but does not mean that I dissagree where you are going with it.

    You cannot always get around the suppliers, raw materials and such when the bottom line is the numbers. It is always about numbers and Q1,2,3,4, profits that count the most.
    09-19-11 12:24 PM
  7. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Without a doubt I agree 100% wit hyour last sentence. I just truly have to beleive that if RIM and the carriers cared to put out and sell more ofthe new OS 7 devices they would do alot more advertising than they do as opposed to other phones be it Android or IOS but it does not seem that way and with the exception of seeing adds on websites you don't see nearly the adds on other media like TV as you do for these other phones.

    I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the thought of Premium because of the keyboard when there are so many more other devices being sold be it with a virtual keyboard that is accurate and works well and you have to admit even with the Torch OS 7 as well.

    No argument out of me on this point you are trying to make as much as that I am just trying to make my point but does not mean that I dissagree where you are going with it.

    You cannot always get around the suppliers, raw materials and such when the bottom line is the numbers. It is always about numbers and Q1,2,3,4, profits that count the most.

    Lets pull the keyboard debate out and put it into another product. CARS

    if your NEEDS are a Truck with 4x4 capabilities, (portrait keyboard) it doesn't matter how amazing or beautiful the other 2X4 Trucks are, so the dealers CAN, and DO price those 4X4 trucks considerably more than the added cost of 4x4 should warrant, and the BEST of the 4X4's would be called the Premium model, no matter how much it lacked compared to the 2X4 markets premium models
    09-19-11 12:45 PM
  8. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    $100 every two years doesn't stress my bank account, because I just get phones that don't cost that high. You're suggesting I simply throw money down the toilet, cause I can? That's more than my phone bill is. It's not a trivial amount of money, irregardless of how much I may or may not have.

    HTC and Samsung aren't the ones floundering. I just wanna know why the phone is so damn expensive. I don't see any technical reason why that's the case and the form factor excuse is pretty bad.

    Bold 9780 wasn't that expensive and it was still the only Bold being sold by my carrier. Does not compute.

    THE world doesn't revolve around my choices. My purchases revolve around prices and percieved value.
    09-19-11 06:40 PM
  9. katiepea's Avatar
    in all fairness RIM doesn't set the price, if anyone asked my opinion, i would say carriers only want the phones to sell to die hard enthusiasts who won't be lining up to complain about a lack of support and updates in a few months when QNX launches. imagine if the os7 phones were seriously flying off the shelves, people lining up for them, that wouldn't exactly be doing the carriers, RIM, customers any real service for the launch of QNX. these phones were meant to hold the ground until then, not be blockbuster devices.
    09-19-11 06:44 PM
  10. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    As long as the device I brought is supported decently I can care less about whether or not it's upgraded to QNX. That's not an issue for me. If they're ready and willing to support the issues QNX phones coming out soon shouldn't be an issue.

    In any case, lower prices probably would help them sell more phones - at least being price competitive with competing high end smartphones.

    I'm aware RIM doesn't set the subsidized prices in the store, but they do have MSRPs and they can lobby the carrier (T-Mobile in this case) to not sell the phone for such outrageous prices.

    The carriers are probably doing it to recoup some costs from BIS.
    09-19-11 06:48 PM
  11. katiepea's Avatar
    As long as the device I brought is supported decently I can care less about whether or not it's upgraded to QNX. That's not an issue for me. If they're ready and willing to support the issues QNX phones coming out soon shouldn't be an issue.

    In any case, lower prices probably would help them sell more phones - at least being price competitive with competing high end smartphones.
    the issue is more that the company's future likely depends on how well QNX phones launch, and if all their customers just locked themselves into new 2-3 year contracts 4 months before it launches, that doesn't bode well for QNX launch sales at all. it's not about the current phones not being upgraded to QNX, we already know they won't be, it's that RIM and carriers likely don't want to flood the market with devices that were never meant to be long term investments.
    09-19-11 06:51 PM
  12. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    As long as the device I brought is supported decently I can care less about whether or not it's upgraded to QNX. That's not an issue for me. If they're ready and willing to support the issues QNX phones coming out soon shouldn't be an issue.

    In any case, lower prices probably would help them sell more phones - at least being price competitive with competing high end smartphones.

    I'm aware RIM doesn't set the subsidized prices in the store, but they do have MSRPs and they can lobby the carrier (T-Mobile in this case) to not sell the phone for such outrageous prices.

    The carriers are probably doing it to recoup some costs from BIS.

    Even the MSRP isn't followed by the Carriers, Rogers, and Telus have drastically different off contract pricing, only on contract pricing is similar as it is more competitive.


    as for the increases sales by having a lower price point, the proportionate increase in sales vs the loss in revenue per device probably wouldn't work for the carriers. they are pretty smart and have a lot of metrics to say what their best return for their bottom line is, RIM's market share is irrelevant to them, and RIM is getting harassed for having lower ASP's by anal cysts, so they aren't about to lower their selling prices to the carriers.
    09-19-11 08:21 PM
  13. Rootbrian's Avatar
    I don't have any issues with phone prices. If I save up enough once my term is over, I'm buying the phone regardless. Specs don't matter, premium doesn't matter either. If it satisfies my needs, I'm happy. Besides, wind has no contract. I'll pay full price and it won't hurt me a bit.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-19-11 08:47 PM
  14. myrv's Avatar
    That is just on T-Mobile. On Verizon I can buy a 9930 off contract for $509.99. The thing is, of those Android phones, there are only two I would put in contention with the 9900, the Mytouch 4g Slide and the, HTC. I think a better comparison would be the Galaxy 2 when it comes out.
    09-20-11 08:11 AM
  15. mush10's Avatar
    This is where I think lack of native exchange support is really hurting Blackberry. The 9900/30 stands alone in build type and quality in my opinion. However, it is essentially limited to companies that have BES's or people who do not need access to corporate mail. Enterprise folks will pay the $299, but that market is shrinking on RIM as more large companies allow Exchange support, while small to medium size businesses are give up supporting their BES all together.

    The non corporate mail market looks at the $299 as says it is too high when they can buy an iPhone or Android device for less.

    In my opinion they are missing out on the corporate mail folks (with money), but no BES. This is a category that continues to grow and RIM continues to neglect it. Hopefully QNX will rescue this, but who knows when a QNX qwerty will finally appear.
    09-20-11 12:59 PM
  16. Bromo33333's Avatar
    I don't despute your comments a bit but of course through VZW I paid $249.00 for my 9930 - $30.00 for the NE2 upgrade but I remember 2 years ago buying my Tour it was $199.00 and I received a $70.00 debit card back also. It does not seem that RIM or the carriers are willing to work with pricing anymore, The carriers more than RIM and personally although I paid for it I still think it is too much for this new Bold especially since there is very little advertising from RIM or the carriers.
    The Motorola Droid Bionic is going for a cool US$300 with a 2 year contract from Verizon, $50 more than the Bold. Both are the line's "flagship" devices (regardless of spec). The iPhone4 is around $300+ depending upon memory and is the Apple Flagship.

    So I suppose it depends how you compare the Verizon offering:

    Flagship from the Android (Droid B) is about $300 ($589 w/no contract)
    Flagship from iPhone is $300 ($750 w/no contract)
    Flagship form RIM is $250 ($510 w/no contract)

    Clearly you save $50 on a 2 year contract, and $79-$260 with no commit depending upon the phone.

    So given the relative pricing, I think you are seeing a discount that reflects the current relative position of Blackberry vs. the rest. I think the pricing isn't out of bed - market share has RIM as 2nd or 3rd depending if you are comparing Operating systems or manufacturers. And the Bold is a truly sweet looking phone.

    I know that Verizon is setting both MSRP and subsidized price for all of them - but I think their pricing I think accurately reflects the "state of the flagship" for the phones.

    I agree, though, that the carriers (especially Verizon) have been inching up their pricing on their smartphones - partly it recognizes a "flagship" phone, partly since hot phones regardless of producer command a premium. For Verizon a "top end non flagship" is about $200. Below that somewhere will be the mid tier phones to basic phones.

    We will see a variety of inexpensive smartphones start to fill in the sub-$200 ranks. The updated Curves and lower than 9900 updated Bolds will do this for RIM, there are a crop if single core 800-1000MHz Android phones, and iPhone4GS/3GS will do it for Apple.
    Last edited by Bromo33333; 09-20-11 at 02:06 PM.
    09-20-11 01:47 PM
  17. Bromo33333's Avatar

    The non corporate mail market looks at the $299 as says it is too high when they can buy an iPhone or Android device for less.
    When you compare Flagships, Bold 99XX is at a relative advantage to iPhone and Android phones such as the Droid Bionic.

    But you are correct that as there are lower cost alternatives. The Torch 98XX is one alternative at $200 at Verizon, The Torch 9810 at AT&T is offered at an eye-popping $50 subsidized price, and there are a small army of Android phones at $150-200 single core 1GHz based phones (a few dual cores at $200). But you can and will get into the Redo of the curve in these (presumably sub $200) ranks as well which will have the same spec at the current crop of BB7 devices.

    I think the carriers are currently "holding their breaths" for the iPhone5 which offers the best gross margins and hype of all of the phones right now. It does seem to set the mainstream direction of smartphones because Apple really does "deliver the goods" in terms of high average selling price, margins, paid app buying and billing from the carriers.

    Interestingly enough, BBOS phones are relative data misers compared to Android and iOS - this could factor in to the carrier's attitude. They get an extra $20-80 from their customers for data depending upon how much they want. BB Users can usually buy the cheapest tier of data (or next tier up when the lowest is the tiniest one) and easily stay under the amount.
    Last edited by Bromo33333; 09-20-11 at 02:24 PM.
    09-20-11 02:16 PM
  18. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    But why would I (or anyone) want a 4G phone with a 200MB data plan?

    And yes, I didn't want to bring that up, but the hardware in the new BBs are comparable to the Android/iOS devices that were shipping over a year ago (Galaxy S, iPhone 4, etc.).

    Can always just get another Bold 9780 but I'm not taking the risk of getting another phone with a defective keyboard.
    09-21-11 01:18 AM
  19. ca101d's Avatar
    Despite the circumstances, RIM will not lower prices for its flagship. A brand like Blackberry has built up a premium image and afford to lose it. Besides, if you were a corporate boss, would you like to carry around a device that is anything less than super expensive?
    09-21-11 01:40 AM
  20. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    That makes absolutely no sense.

    Anyways, how much APP storage is in the 9810? Can anyone with one post that (storage for Apps, not total internal storage)?

    EDIT: Eh... I found it in the Review: http://crackberry.com/blackberry-torch-9810-review

    < 200 MB so much for that idea.
    Last edited by N8ter; 09-21-11 at 08:17 AM.
    09-21-11 08:07 AM
  21. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    That makes absolutely no sense.

    Anyways, how much APP storage is in the 9810? Can anyone with one post that (storage for Apps, not total internal storage)?
    RIM has muddied that answer with OS7

    Theoretically the 9810 has 192MB of App storage BUT! then Apps like 3d RollerCoaster deally and NeedForSpeed store data for use in the Apps outside of the App Storage space, Rollercoaster dealer taking up less than 10MB of space in App Storage but more than 60MB of space of my 8GB of storage.
    09-21-11 08:15 AM
  22. guerllamo7's Avatar
    Two things:
    1. If you are looking for a BB then shop online. Amazon, Walmart and others have promotions. Sometimes, even the retail carriers have promotions.

    2. The QNX phones are NOT replacing this awesome OS7 devices. They are just a new phone in the line-up. Mike L said that during the last conference call. Honestly, I just could not figure out how to make the Bold 9930 a better phone. The keyboard is just unbelievable and everything runs super fast. Youtube, web, and of course e-mail and messaging.

    O.K. I have a third item. If you have not noticed, there are a few turkeys out there that don't like BB and post dumb things that are not true (honestly, if they don't like BB then why spend time on this website?). So, don't let them confuse you about QNX or anything else. RIMM will continue to support the OS7 phones for a long time.
    09-21-11 08:18 AM
  23. grover5's Avatar
    RIM has muddied that answer with OS7

    Theoretically the 9810 has 192MB of App storage BUT! then Apps like 3d RollerCoaster deally and NeedForSpeed store data for use in the Apps outside of the App Storage space, Rollercoaster dealer taking up less than 10MB of space in App Storage but more than 60MB of space of my 8GB of storage.
    Exactly. I have about 210 mbs left with about 20 apps installed. Rollercoaster takes up 2 mbs of that with another 50 mbs or so on the 8 gb side. Anything large uses the 8 gb side for the majority of the space requirements it would seem.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-21-11 08:20 AM
  24. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    RIM has muddied that answer with OS7

    Theoretically the 9810 has 192MB of App storage BUT! then Apps like 3d RollerCoaster deally and NeedForSpeed store data for use in the Apps outside of the App Storage space, Rollercoaster dealer taking up less than 10MB of space in App Storage but more than 60MB of space of my 8GB of storage.
    Yea, I took the time and read the whole review. I prefer a better safe than never approach. With 8GB internal, they should have given 1GB for apps, IMO. With it having an SD card slot and all. I may pop by an AT&T store and play with one. I noticed in the review there is a ton of bloatware on it, though...
    09-21-11 01:23 PM
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