02-29-12 07:10 PM
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  1. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    So if it is the same but different, it really isn't the same.

    I'm just playing around I know what you mean.

    Speaking of 3G/2G, you guys get anymore 3G coverage yet or is GPRS/EDGE still dominant?
    Unfortunately still mostly 2G, 3G only in bigger towns.

    There is one carrier with larger 3G coverage but the downside is it has no 2G, so when you're out you're stuck.
    02-28-12 01:19 PM
  2. currentodysseys's Avatar
    Just my input as a consumer and a long time user of bb phones and owner of a playbook:

    What I believe RIM did wrong (in what regards me as a user and client) is the dumping of the torch 9800. I went crazy and paid a hefty ammount to get hands on after my bold 9000 decided to "drink" a tequila sunrise.

    I could try fixing my bold but the mere idea of having the Torch with bb6 was smelling heaven to me, and in reality, for a bb old timer it was! I was fully in love (and still am) with my torch 9800 on bb6. and here is where os7 got to mess it up a bit IMO.

    Just a few months later my phone was doomed to be a past generation phone and bb7 would not be compatible with my "poor hardware".... I just felt I would not spend a dime more for bb7 until i had my torch burned out... so there it went for a couple of months time, the bb7 capabilities were off limits to me (which means I would not promote it on an own-experience basis) and also I will not hide the fact that I got to feel hugely disregarded as a faithful client by RIM.

    That alone made me not to even want to talk about v7 even though it does have very nice improvements. Now that bb10 is on the way i will definately let time pass as I believe that buying a new phone now would be too much of a risk, just in case the new models on bb10 fair better than an upgraded model from the latest series of phones on bb7.... I will wait for that "new phone" launch, check it our first and go on it later. The fact of not having coherense and small time spawn between 6 and 7 on the game changer Torch 9800 phone along with the almost immediate release of the newest models and incompatibility of 6 phones with 7 phones made 7 to be too much money for its goodies for me.

    Just sharing my personal experience and consumer stance about bb7 in context to the discussion. I think RIM should have worked this one better for whatever segment they put my typology of client in. Only my 2cents.
    Last edited by currentodysseys; 02-28-12 at 01:22 PM.
    02-28-12 01:20 PM
  3. avt123's Avatar
    Unfortunately still mostly 2G, 3G only in bigger towns.

    There is one carrier with larger 3G coverage but the downside is it has no 2G, so when you're out you're stuck.
    Ah damn. I feel for you man.
    02-28-12 01:25 PM
  4. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Just my input as a consumer and a long time user of bb phones and owner of a playbook:

    What I believe RIM did wrong (in what regards me as a user and client) is the dumping of the torch 9800. I went crazy and paid a hefty ammount to get hands on after my bold 9000 decided to "drink" a tequila sunrise.

    I could try fixing my bold but the mere idea of having the Torch with bb6 was smelling heaven to me, and in reality, for a bb old timer it was! I was fully in love (and still am) with my torch 9800 on bb6. and here is where os7 got to mess it up a bit IMO.

    Just a few months later my phone was doomed to be a past generation phone and bb7 would not be compatible with my "poor hardware".... I just felt I would not spend a dime more for bb7 until i had my torch burned out... so there it went for a couple of months time, the bb7 capabilities were off limits to me (which means I would not promote it on an own-experience basis) and also I will not hide the fact that I got to feel hugely disregarded as a faithful client by RIM.

    That alone made me not to even want to talk about v7 even though it does have very nice improvements. Now that bb10 is on the way i will definately let time pass as I believe that buying a new phone now would be too much of a risk, just in case the new models on bb10 fair better than an upgraded model from the latest series of phones on bb7.... I will wait for that "new phone" launch, check it our first and go on it later. The fact of not having coherense and small time spawn between 6 and 7 on the game changer Torch 9800 phone along with the almost immediate release of the newest models and incompatibility of 6 phones with 7 phones made 7 to be too much money for its goodies for me.

    Just sharing my personal experience and consumer stance about bb7 in context to the discussion. I think RIM should have worked this one better for whatever segment they put my typology of client in. Only my 2cents.
    I get this. But keep in mind that this kind of upgrade behavior is prevalent across all platforms. I.e., iPhone upgrades usually happen abount once a year, yet most iPhone users are on 18-month or 2-year upgrade plans (much to their chagrin) and will likely upgrade every other cycle. I have no idea if Android hardware OEMs are on any kind of cycle because there are just too damn many flavors for me to keep track of. But here's a question: how many older Android phones will be able to run ICS well? I don't know the answer, just throwing the q out there.

    Just one more point I'd like to throw in here: all phones are doomed to obsolescence the day they are released. What varies - though not by much - is how long after release their replacements follow, and how much (or how little) the manufacturers reveal about those successors. The day the iPhone 4s dropped, anyone with a brain and a pulse knew the iPhone 5 was only another year away. And I know for a fact there were many users who decided to hang on to their iP4 when they realized the new iP was 'only' a 4s. It happens to all of them to one degree or another.

    With BB's, RIM always seems to be between a rock and a hard place. They come out with incremental upgrades to the OS, people complain that the hardware is outdated. They bring out new hardware, people complain that the software required to run on it won't run on older hardware. There is no one solution that is going to satisfy everybody.
    currentodysseys likes this.
    02-28-12 01:49 PM
  5. currentodysseys's Avatar
    I get this. But keep in mind that this kind of upgrade behavior is prevalent across all platforms. I.e., iPhone upgrades usually happen abount once a year, yet most iPhone users are on 18-month or 2-year upgrade plans (much to their chagrin) and will likely upgrade every other cycle. I have no idea if Android hardware OEMs are on any kind of cycle because there are just too damn many flavors for me to keep track of. But here's a question: how many older Android phones will be able to run ICS well? I don't know the answer, just throwing the q out there.

    Just one more point I'd like to throw in here: all phones are doomed to obsolescence the day they are released. What varies - though not by much - is how long after release their replacements follow, and how much (or how little) the manufacturers reveal about those successors. The day the iPhone 4s dropped, anyone with a brain and a pulse knew the iPhone 5 was only another year away. And I know for a fact there were many users who decided to hang on to their iP4 when they realized the new iP was 'only' a 4s. It happens to all of them to one degree or another.

    With BB's, RIM always seems to be between a rock and a hard place. They come out with incremental upgrades to the OS, people complain that the hardware is outdated. They bring out new hardware, people complain that the software required to run on it won't run on older hardware. There is no one solution that is going to satisfy everybody.
    Thanks for your input!! I agree with you and at the end it was i that checked things out and took the risk on possibility of compatibility of my torch 9800 with 7 and was wrong. The one thing though i d like to point out is that the torch was a game changer phone for RIM going into "new generation" (its day 1 known limitations acknowledged). In that sense it was in my opinion a little too fast of out-dating it go ahead and it proved only transitional. That made me as a client to not migrate to the bb7.

    But as said, i do agree with your points and was only stating my particular consumer behaviour as result of how rim decided to market their plans. Anyone who works in business strategy sales and planning should be able to admit that many times as users we ask for things that as executioners we know they would be a total no-go or "collateral". I for one do admit, but hey you do need to "push" a bit
    02-28-12 02:08 PM
  6. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Just my input as a consumer and a long time user of bb phones and owner of a playbook:

    What I believe RIM did wrong (in what regards me as a user and client) is the dumping of the torch 9800...
    A) You DO know that there's a 9810 that's essentially the same phone with upgraded hardware and OS7, right? And...

    B) Do you also know that the 9800 is still offered? It's still on RIM's site (and I would guess is still in production). If you can't get it that would be the choice of your carrier, not RIM.
    02-28-12 02:11 PM
  7. currentodysseys's Avatar
    A) You DO know that there's a 9810 that's essentially the same phone with upgraded hardware and OS7, right? And...

    B) Do you also know that the 9800 is still offered? It's still on RIM's site (and I would guess is still in production). If you can't get it that would be the choice of your carrier, not RIM.
    Yeah both points i am aware of.
    Just to clarify as i think i did not explain myself correctly: by dumping i meant exactly that a slight variation of the 9810 was almost out in no time rendering my purchase of the 9800 a failed buy. I purchased my device as a free phone, not from my carrier, as in my case the market here is totally up to date with every other phone but with blackberries they are falling like half or one year behind. I wend above and beyond to get my hands on my torch. Only to see RIM rendering it "older generation within a very small time period in regards to bb7 and coming out with the 9810.

    Hope i explained better my point his time and sorry if my choice of words created confusion.
    02-28-12 02:22 PM
  8. avt123's Avatar
    But here's a question: how many older Android phones will be able to run ICS well? I don't know the answer, just throwing the q out there.
    Nowhere near the majority. Android OEM support isn't as good as Apple. The 3GS has iOS5 (yes stripped down a bit) but a phone like the SGS wont get ICS even though it has good hardware and it is capable. Samsung just want to keep their skin on it which makes it bogged down.

    The one great thing about Android is that if the carrier/manufacturer doesn't support it, you can bet a dev will. Not saying this is something everyone will do, but it is an option no other platform has.

    Samsung Galaxy S Ice Cream Sandwich Update Not In The Cards, Says Manufacturer
    Last edited by avt123; 02-28-12 at 02:26 PM.
    currentodysseys likes this.
    02-28-12 02:22 PM
  9. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    ...Hope i explained better my point his time and sorry if my choice of words created confusion.
    No worries

    I think people worried about BB7 aren't really looking at the bigger picture. I suspect it will be with us in some form for at least several months after the first BB10 devices launch.

    Work on BB7 was very likely already well-advanced before the purchase of QNX, and I'm sure it was intended to be just another step in the progression of BBOS. The problem came when BB7 launched up against what at the time was thought to be the imminent launch of "BBX" phones; the reason BB7 wasn't promoted particularly strongly was because it was released under the assumption that it wouldn't last long.

    In a way, while the BB10 delay has hurt RIM, it's probably better in the long run for BB7 customers. Developers have been given a wider window in which to launch new apps or upgrade old ones.
    currentodysseys likes this.
    02-28-12 02:27 PM
  10. 13echo4's Avatar
    There is a hardware jump, that doesn't mean the hardware jump was necessary for the operating system.
    No the software was required for the hardware jump. Os6 doesn't have the instruction set to run the new hardware. Like wise the os6 devices doesn't have the hardware to run the os7.
    I switched from a 9800 to a 9860. Only 3 of my apps wouldn't run at all. Only 2 didn't have all functions. Os6 apps wasn't written to accomadate the new hardware.
    No, not all android apps are ackwards compatable. Like you told belfast do some research.
    02-28-12 03:09 PM
  11. soogriff's Avatar
    I agree with you. My elder brother told me: "That's your NEW phone? It looks exactly like the old models... You lost your money"
    My husband says this to me all the time. Then I point out that the iphone 3G and 3GS looked the same and the 4 and the 4s. Of course, it's ok for apple to do that.

    *eyeroll*
    02-28-12 06:10 PM
  12. Economist101's Avatar
    My husband says this to me all the time. Then I point out that the iphone 3G and 3GS looked the same and the 4 and the 4s. Of course, it's ok for apple to do that.
    It's "ok" as long as there results are what they are, because it suggests their customers/potential customers don't care. Now, if they suddenly were selling 30% fewer devices this quarter than the same quarter last year, it would no longer be "ok."
    02-28-12 07:00 PM
  13. bobauckland's Avatar
    No the software was required for the hardware jump. Os6 doesn't have the instruction set to run the new hardware. Like wise the os6 devices doesn't have the hardware to run the os7.
    I switched from a 9800 to a 9860. Only 3 of my apps wouldn't run at all. Only 2 didn't have all functions. Os6 apps wasn't written to accomadate the new hardware.
    No, not all android apps are ackwards compatable. Like you told belfast do some research.
    I give up. This is going round in circles. Everyone, including me, is telling someone else to do some research. Its childish. Its sad.
    I can't discuss this with you guys, it seems. We're getting nowhere. The hardware for the flagship 9900 is a step backwards from the 9780 is some ways. Thats unacceptable to me. It should be a step forwards in every way. Android and Apple Devices, do their flagship models release a new version with an inferior camera? Does the new iPhone promise you even less battery life with a smaller capacity battery as a bonus? They take an existing feature set and add to it.
    This is what disappoints me about the 9900. They could have put a different camera in. A superior one. Like on the 9780. They could have made it UMA capable. From the start. They could have given it a massive battery. It would have made it thicker. They could have dropped a front facing camera in. Just in case. Heck they could have taken the specs off the 9780, given it a slight bump without decreasing the quality of anything, and thrown that awesome keyboard on, and people would love it.
    And people would have snapped them up. Myself included.
    Instead you have a device thats inferior to the 9780 is some ways, so you're left thinking, do I want that awesome keyboard? Or do I want a camera that will take close up pics of documents? You have to make a choice instead of having both. Thats a huge flaw for me, and it didn't need to be there.
    BlackBerry owners pride themselves on function over style. Other devices are often dismissed as toys, for putting style and paper specs before actual performance.
    By bumping some specs while cutting back on others, the 9900 has valued style over function. Once you start justifying a phones existence on hardware specs on paper instead of function or real life value, you're in Android territory, and Android specs run all over the 9900 on paper. That would seem to be why the OS7 devices aren't moving as well as people might have thought they would, it doesn't fully cater to the BlackBerry owners mindset or the alternative device owners mindset, its caught in the middle.
    02-28-12 08:21 PM
  14. bitek's Avatar
    rim may have done a poor job marketing the new os release ill give u that, but as an os i would say it hasnt flopped at all . night and day better than os 6 i was running. only thing i would have liked is for certain fewatures , such as nfc , to be available on all devices...but i understand its because of hardware issues from one bb to another.
    Totally agree. OS7 is really good. I enjoy my 9810 big times. 7.1 improves performance even more. Internet browsing is finally smooth and fast. The phone is responsive and joy to use. Rim sucks big times in marketing. The advertising does not have one cohesive message. Rim should put more resources into promotion. Bold,agressive advertising is needed. Many have not tried new os7 because they assume is all the same and tim does not give them any reasons to think any different.
    02-29-12 08:48 AM
  15. f0xG3's Avatar
    For some resason, I think of BB now as "The Mario"; pretty much not a specialist. That is why I like the BB, not as expensive as Apple nor fragmented as Android. It basically sits in the middle..... For now.

    But if BBX gets released... Let see what happens... I just wish RIM rolls it out asap... Preferrably before the iPhone 5/6 launch.
    02-29-12 08:56 AM
  16. sleepngbear's Avatar
    So the 9900 is inferior because the camera is not autofocus and it has a higher-performing processor that has marginally shorter battery life than the 9780. Ok, you go with that. Stay with your 9780 or your iPhone or whatever else floats your boat. The rest of us are going with what floats ours. Bye now.
    02-29-12 08:59 AM
  17. bitek's Avatar
    I posted this reply in comments to a recent article but feel it is worthy of a thread. In addition to the common reasons given for BB 7 lackluster sales, I feel this is often overlooked:

    The problem is everyone including RIM is waiting for BB 10. The launch and promotion of BB 7 devices as many are aware of, was completely botched. That was a golden opportunity to begin raising awareness of the new Blackberries. Most people have no idea what a huge step forward was taken with the browsers in 9900 and 9800 lines.

    But, rather than really try and point out the new hardware and capabilities, RIM and I hate to say it, even Crackberry focused on the very traditional keyboard 9900 series. Most former or non BB users did not even give that a second glance. To them, it looked like the same old BB. The Torch 9850/50 series with a large touch screen was much better suited to raising awareness and promoting BB 7 and the new hardware. The New Torch would not as easily be mistaken as the same old BB. Non hard core BB users would likely be much more tempted by this perhaps in their mind "more up to date phone" than the Bold. You don't need to promote the 9900 keyboard, the faithful are salivating waiting for it and the most likely to buy it.

    By the time BB10 is in store, we are looking at well over a year which could have been put to good use by properly marketing the BB 7 devices. RIM also dropped the ball big time by failing to educate carriers about the new phones. Everyone knows that most store employees knew very little about BB7 devices and many of us know of cases where they discouraged BB 7 uptake.

    What a disaster. Wake up RIM. Its not only about the hardware. Nothing wrong with BB7. You just don't know how to sell it. Neglecting to promote the Torch 9850/60 was another in a series of missed opportunities.
    Honestly reading these doom scenerio posts is just tiring. How is selling of million devices a floop ? I agree that rim should do better marketing but you need to realize that many are waiting for OS10. If I am on 3 year contract that is about to expire I would wait extra few months to get the newest from bb. Smart phone maeket is supposed to double in near future. There is more than enough room for rim. Not everyone likes apple, not everyone likes androidm fortunes change quickly in this business. Underdog today might be Leading the market in few years. Apps and apple gui is popular today. Tomorrow might be something else.
    02-29-12 09:01 AM
  18. bitek's Avatar
    For some resason, I think of BB now as "The Mario"; pretty much not a specialist. That is why I like the BB, not as expensive as Apple nor fragmented as Android. It basically sits in the middle..... For now.

    But if BBX gets released... Let see what happens... I just wish RIM rolls it out asap... Preferrably before the iPhone 5/6 launch.
    I would not worry. Iphone 5 will be nothing revolutionary, merly improved iphone 4 with better specs.
    02-29-12 09:03 AM
  19. Raestloz's Avatar
    My own opinion:
    I'm from Indonesia, and while I may be wrong, I think the penetration of BlackBerry 7 devices here is pretty low

    Personally, I think it has more to do with BlackBerry 7 being nothing but pumped up version of BlackBerry 6, which was essentially a theme upgrade from BlackBerry OS 5

    I understand that BlackBerry 6 was quite an update, and BlackBerry 7 was a very huge leap forward with the CPU, but function-wise there is no difference with BlackBerry OS 5.

    This is precisely the case with iPhone, but I think the difference is precisely the fact that with iPhone, nothing changes software wise. Every new generation of iPhone sports only better hardware

    This allows people to keep the feeling of "Holy Crap, I have the latest technology!" iPhone 3G got iOS 4, which is not happening with quite a number of BlackBerry OS 5 devices. I know that 9700 and 9650 got BlackBerry 6, but then we're back to another problem:

    RIM pushed new devices with new OS far too quickly.

    People want the latest device, and when you launch BlackBerry 6 which is not that different from BlackBerry OS 5 and then release BlackBerry 7 which is not compatible with older devices, people simply lost the "latest technology" thing. Not to mention that they announced BlackBerry 7 will be completely obsolete within a year or two

    The way I see it, BlackBerry 7 should not be expected to win the market. BlackBerryX is the key, and unless they can bring something fresh to the interface (the one thing people will test) and the ease of use of social networking (and video/camera) applications, BlackBerry won't get the market share it used to have. It's the youngsters era now, and youngsters couldn't care less about security. They want style, being hip, and having the latest of the latest.

    Steve Jobs was great at marketing his devices as a hip product, that's what separates BlackBerry from iPhone. To be frank, the only reason BlackBerry is doing so good here in Indonesia is because of BBM. Specifically, the fact that you don't have to "log in". It's not on all the time, but it's significantly hassle-free compared to any other instant messaging app (something that WhatsApp tried to replicate). Indonesians love to chat, and if iPhone and Android can connect to BlackBerry Messenger, BlackBerry is done for
    02-29-12 09:19 AM
  20. BergerKing's Avatar
    Specifically, the fact that you don't have to "log in". It's not on all the time, but it's significantly hassle-free compared to any other instant messaging app (something that WhatsApp tried to replicate). Indonesians love to chat, and if iPhone and Android can connect to BlackBerry Messenger, BlackBerry is done for
    BBM is on all the time, unless it has been deleted from the device, or has been upgraded but hasn't had the EULA agreed. It's always there, otherwise.
    02-29-12 10:16 AM
  21. brucejr70's Avatar
    "I love potato's! I loved em mashed, I love em fried, I love potato's!" Jeff Garland
    02-29-12 01:20 PM
  22. Raestloz's Avatar
    BBM is on all the time, unless it has been deleted from the device, or has been upgraded but hasn't had the EULA agreed. It's always there, otherwise.
    I guess I wasn't clear enough. When I said "on", I mean that it is connected to the network (and can receive messages). Other instant messaging services tend to shut down after you're disconnected from the network for some time, requiring you to manually log in after you're connected again
    02-29-12 07:10 PM
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