06-03-16 10:03 AM
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  1. keypad's Avatar
    I can list more reasons not to buy a BlackBerry than I can too buy a BlackBerry.



    Posted via CB10
    05-29-16 01:49 PM
  2. xtremeled's Avatar
    I didn't want to quote all the "Stuff" you wrote because I think most is just filler when it comes to why the Priv didn't
    sell. The entire smartphone market has moved away from the PKB. If you want to try and make any kind of comeback, Make the phone people want. I know, users here claim the PKB is popular. Numbers prove them wrong. BB may have done better if they just dropped the PKB all together. More of the same bad execution that has been going on for years.
    05-29-16 03:34 PM
  3. keypad's Avatar
    I didn't want to quote all the "Stuff" you wrote because I think most is just filler when it comes to why the Priv didn't
    sell. The entire smartphone market has moved away from the PKB. If you want to try and make any kind of comeback, Make the phone people want. I know, users here claim the PKB is popular. Numbers prove them wrong. BB may have done better if they just dropped the PKB all together. More of the same bad execution that has been going on for years.
    What type of smartphone do you think BlackBerry should be making right now?

    Posted via CB10
    05-29-16 03:40 PM
  4. Doctornoc's Avatar
    Blackberry failed at marketing and advertising. Which is why their devices haven't sold!

    Posted via CB10
    Sigewif likes this.
    05-29-16 04:26 PM
  5. EinBB's Avatar
    You pretty much explained in a different way my first point, PKB appears as a gimmick in the Android space. However, if you ask me, I think not having a PKB and have the issues it used to have until Marshmallow rolled out for the Priv, it would have failed in epic proportions more than it did now: it would have looked like a Samsung S6 Edge, but with smaller edges and plastic construction. If that happened I'd guarantee that it would have done so bad, BB would have canned smartphone construction completely.

    BlackBerry needs to move more towards casual users, more marketing to the casuals and, most importantly, fix its reputation and build a fanbase.
    05-29-16 05:20 PM
  6. z10Jobe's Avatar
    I didn't go over economics for the reason that the Priv is in no way the most expensive phone in the smartphone line-up (ignoring novelties like Vertu), and in a market where there are still people dumping money every year for iPhones, people who more often than not do not earn sufficient money, or worse, take a loan to buy it, pricing becomes a moot point, because Apple has proven pricing doesn't matter when you take a holistic view of the market. I don't think I have to remember people here why iPhone is a bad smartphone experience in every other sector than UI or hardware:

    • You still need iTunes to put on music and video files on the phone (aka buggy resource-intensive software with very confusing UI)
    • Still unable to have internal memory operate as mass storage without jailbreaking (which voids your warranty)
    • Metal housing still bends
    • Continuous refusal from Apple to use similar I/O like other smartphones, meaning MicroUSB or at least USB 3.0
    • If rumours turn out to be true about iPhone 7, the removal of the 3.5mm headphone jack is another

    Yet in spite of all this people still buy it, even if it's at the top of the totem pole in terms of pricing (sure, until iPhone SE came out, but most part of sales still come from the normal iPhone), this is why economics wasn't worth going over, keeping to the theme of this post.
    Amen

    Posted via CB10
    05-29-16 06:07 PM
  7. aha's Avatar
    The Chinese made full matal unibody $450 ZTE Axon 7 just entered the flagship smartphone market, with impressive specs on par to $750 Samsung S7 Edge, $700 HTC 10, $600 LG G5, also comes with near stock Android OS, plus two year warranty targeted US market...

    Chen may be right again, the premium smartphone market is a crowded cut-throat market now. What he may have been wrong is to believe there is a space in the mid level... $450, where is the line?

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2876
    05-29-16 06:14 PM
  8. leglace1's Avatar
    There are much better devices out there compared to the priv. Lg,htc, and Samsung all make superior android devices.
    Hell I would add Huawei and ZTE now with their most recent additions for less than what the Priv launched at.

    The Huawei GX8 and the ZTE Axon 7 are extremely impressive in specs and build.


    Posted via CB10
    05-29-16 06:17 PM
  9. leglace1's Avatar
    The Chinese made full matal unibody $450 ZTE Axon 7 just entered the flagship smartphone market, with impressive specs on par to $750 Samsung S7 Edge, $700 HTC 10, $600 LG G5, also comes with near stock Android OS, plus two year warranty targeted US market...

    Chen may be right again, the premium smartphone market is a crowded cut-throat market now. What he may have been wrong is to believe there is a space in the mid level... $450, where is the line?



    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2876
    I am not sure if he understands that there is some well mid level spec'd competition at less than $300. Going above $400 with mid level specs will need to at least exceed their offerings.

    Posted via CB10
    05-29-16 06:21 PM
  10. keypad's Avatar
    The question now really is, what is a midrange android phone in 2016?

    1. One Plus 3

    2. Huawei P9

    3. Asus Zenphone 3

    4. Zte Axon 7

    5. Moto G/Z

    The onslaught is real! The east are changing the hardware game and things will never be the same in the west again. They are gunning for Apple and and Samsung, nobody else.

    Now, how much is BlackBerry selling these midrange android phones for again?

    Posted via CB10
    05-29-16 07:24 PM
  11. Sigewif's Avatar
    Blackberry failed at marketing and advertising. Which is why their devices haven't sold!

    Posted via CB10
    This^
    I hope the new marketing guy they hired can do something about this.
    I just was showing a friend my Priv and he used to be a BB guy and the PKB came up. He said he misses that and was admiring my phone. Then he said, "I didn't know BlackBerry was still making phones." Heard that before?
    05-29-16 08:26 PM
  12. donnation's Avatar
    I didn't go over economics for the reason that the Priv is in no way the most expensive phone in the smartphone line-up (ignoring novelties like Vertu), and in a market where there are still people dumping money every year for iPhones, people who more often than not do not earn sufficient money, or worse, take a loan to buy it, pricing becomes a moot point, because Apple has proven pricing doesn't matter when you take a holistic view of the market. I don't think I have to remember people here why iPhone is a bad smartphone experience in every other sector than UI or hardware:

    • You still need iTunes to put on music and video files on the phone (aka buggy resource-intensive software with very confusing UI)
    • Still unable to have internal memory operate as mass storage without jailbreaking (which voids your warranty)
    • Metal housing still bends
    • Continuous refusal from Apple to use similar I/O like other smartphones, meaning MicroUSB or at least USB 3.0
    • If rumours turn out to be true about iPhone 7, the removal of the 3.5mm headphone jack is another

    Yet in spite of all this people still buy it, even if it's at the top of the totem pole in terms of pricing (sure, until iPhone SE came out, but most part of sales still come from the normal iPhone), this is why economics wasn't worth going over, keeping to the theme of this post.
    This form of thinking only works if you have a device that people want. Apple is able to charge what they charge because people buy it. People don't buy Blackberries and they haven't earned the right to command a high price for their phones, especially a poor built, buggy out of the gate Android phone. And you sure as hell don't claim that you have a private Android phone when you in no way shape or form have one.

    To your other points:

    iTunes isn't great but it's something that at least acts as a Liaison with the phone and computer. You think BB link is better? BB links is for the most part worthless. I don't know why you think iTunes is confusing, it's pretty straightforward.

    People could give a rats *** about having internal memory act as storage on an iPhone. When they do and quit buying them, they would probably add it. The iPhone 7 will have an optional 256GB of internal storage, which is more than enough, and people will buy it.

    Apple uses proprietary connectors because it makes them money. Blackberry would do the same thing if they could get away with it. They can't. When another company is able to do something proprietary they will take advantage of it, like BB did when BBM was popular.

    The iPhone 6S and 6S Plus do not bend. The 6 and 6Plus were way over blown anyway. And oh, the Passport bends and bends fairly easily, so that is actually a terrible point.

    If they get rid of the headphone jack and people buy it then it's a win for Apple. Blackberry can't do anything different or try anything because people aren't buying their phones and would reject anything they might try.

    In summary, when you have people rejecting your phones and telling you that they don't want to buy your brand and you release a phone that is on the high end of pricing on Android, economics matter. Pretending they don't is just blind fanboyism.
    05-29-16 08:55 PM
  13. EinBB's Avatar
    The Chinese made full matal unibody $450 ZTE Axon 7 just entered the flagship smartphone market, with impressive specs on par to $750 Samsung S7 Edge, $700 HTC 10, $600 LG G5, also comes with near stock Android OS, plus two year warranty targeted US market...

    Chen may be right again, the premium smartphone market is a crowded cut-throat market now. What he may have been wrong is to believe there is a space in the mid level... $450, where is the line?

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2876
    But we really cannot compare Chinese production costs with the Mexican production costs.

    This form of thinking only works if you have a device that people want. Apple is able to charge what they charge because people buy it. People don't buy Blackberries and they haven't earned the right to command a high price for their phones, especially a poor built, buggy out of the gate Android phone. And you sure as hell don't claim that you have a private Android phone when you in no way shape or form have one.

    To your other points:

    iTunes isn't great but it's something that at least acts as a Liaison with the phone and computer. You think BB link is better? BB links is for the most part worthless. I don't know why you think iTunes is confusing, it's pretty straightforward.

    People could give a rats *** about having internal memory act as storage on an iPhone. When they do and quit buying them, they would probably add it. The iPhone 7 will have an optional 256GB of internal storage, which is more than enough, and people will buy it.

    Apple uses proprietary connectors because it makes them money. Blackberry would do the same thing if they could get away with it. They can't. When another company is able to do something proprietary they will take advantage of it, like BB did when BBM was popular.

    The iPhone 6S and 6S Plus do not bend. The 6 and 6Plus were way over blown anyway. And oh, the Passport bends and bends fairly easily, so that is actually a terrible point.

    If they get rid of the headphone jack and people buy it then it's a win for Apple. Blackberry can't do anything different or try anything because people aren't buying their phones and would reject anything they might try.

    In summary, when you have people rejecting your phones and telling you that they don't want to buy your brand and you release a phone that is on the high end of pricing on Android, economics matter. Pretending they don't is just blind fanboyism.
    BB Link was not mandatory to use, and yes, I did find it much more useful and intuitive than I'll ever find iTunes.

    Passport bends? That's news to me I had a Passport which I carried over 3 continents and 12 countriess, in back pockets, sat on it, sat over it, cramped with other cables and electronics yet aside from scratched camera cover it's great.
    05-29-16 09:17 PM
  14. donnation's Avatar
    But we really cannot compare Chinese production costs with the Mexican production costs.



    BB Link was not mandatory to use, and yes, I did find it much more useful and intuitive than I'll ever find iTunes.

    Passport bends? That's news to me I had a Passport which I carried over 3 continents and 12 countriess, in back pockets, sat on it, sat over it, cramped with other cables and electronics yet aside from scratched camera cover it's great.
    Spend more time in the Passport forum. It's constantly filled with people who have devices where the screen has separated from the phone because it's bent. I've had 2 do it. It's been covered hundreds of times.
    05-29-16 09:18 PM
  15. xtremeled's Avatar
    What type of smartphone do you think BlackBerry should be making right now?

    Posted via CB10
    I think BB should accept defeat and stop wasting money. At this point thats all they are doing. Losses every quarter. No signs of recovery. Concentrate on the parts of the business that make money. Smartphones are not their money maker. They cant even execute a successful launch
    05-29-16 10:47 PM
  16. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    But we really cannot compare Chinese production costs with the Mexican production costs.



    BB Link was not mandatory to use, and yes, I did find it much more useful and intuitive than I'll ever find iTunes.

    Passport bends? That's news to me I had a Passport which I carried over 3 continents and 12 countriess, in back pockets, sat on it, sat over it, cramped with other cables and electronics yet aside from scratched camera cover it's great.

    It doesn't bend, it rather twists... ;-P

      There's a Crack in the Berry right now...  
    05-29-16 11:30 PM
  17. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I didn't want to quote all the "Stuff" you wrote because I think most is just filler when it comes to why the Priv didn't
    sell. The entire smartphone market has moved away from the PKB. If you want to try and make any kind of comeback, Make the phone people want. I know, users here claim the PKB is popular. Numbers prove them wrong. BB may have done better if they just dropped the PKB all together. More of the same bad execution that has been going on for years.
    Yes and no. Yes there are many more potential buyers for an all touch phone but BlackBerry owns the PKB niche. They really need a good all touch and a decent PKB to maximize sales.
    idssteve likes this.
    05-30-16 01:34 AM
  18. mwahdy's Avatar
    In my opinion, Blackberry's problem can be traced to their failure to stick with a proven strategy and to evolve that strategy into the new era of smartphones (touchscreens, huge appstore, zippy software, etc.).

    Blackberry should have doubled down on the enterprise market and should have used the iPhone and Android's entrance to leapfrog the competition. The fact that they were completely unprepared by these developments proves that their management was complacent and saw their business as a cash cow. It wasn't enough that Blackberry was great for existing Blackberry users. Blackberry needed to enhance their value prop by demonstrating the superiority of their product (by building superior products) for the type of market it was geared to. They wasted too many resources on building random phones with no end games.

    If I were in management of BB at the time, I would have 1- doubled down on enterprise users by spending massively on R&D to deliver phones at the BB OS 10 level by 2009, 2- would have focused heavily on app development (which makes the phone more sticky), 3- built partnerships with Microsoft/Oracle/SAP and other large enterprise focused businesses to harness their technology more seamlessly in the Blackberry experience.

    In essence, in my opinion, Blackberry's downfall came from managements misreading of the actual needs and goals of their customers.
    idssteve likes this.
    05-30-16 04:34 AM
  19. IJKBB10's Avatar
    The things that contributed to the Priv not selling:

    • High price vs the competition with similar hardware specs
    • The extremely negative brand image that BB has built for itself over the last several years (and continues to foster)
    • The idiotic name BB chose for the product ("Priv"). Someone needs to be slapped across the face for that.
    • The keyboard - the vast majority of users have no need for a PKB
    • Poor carrier relations due to years of BB releasing products that mainstream customers didn't want (causing carriers not to stock phones, display phones, or recommend phones from BB)
    • Did I mention that the phone was overpriced, because BB still seems to believe that they can command a premium even though their brand image is in the toilet?


    All other issues are extremely minor by comparison.
    Very well said! Agree with everything you said!

    Posted via CB10
    05-30-16 07:51 AM
  20. donnation's Avatar
    It doesn't bend, it rather twists... ;-P

      There's a Crack in the Berry right now...  
    True. Either way it warps, and it's a very common problem with this phone.
    05-30-16 09:10 AM
  21. xtremeled's Avatar
    Yes and no. Yes there are many more potential buyers for an all touch phone but BlackBerry owns the PKB niche. They really need a good all touch and a decent PKB to maximize sales.
    They may own it but, nobody wants it. The current PKB is a POS compared to the PKB's BB was producing on the older Bolds and Curves. You said it yourself, many more potential buyers for an all touch phone. When your company is attempting a comeback you don't cater to the niche buyers. Those buyers simply don't count!
    05-30-16 10:28 AM
  22. xtremeled's Avatar
    If I were in management of BB at the time, I would have 1- doubled down on enterprise users by spending massively on R&D to deliver phones at the BB OS 10 level by 2009
    You would be in the same position that BB is in now! 2009 is 2 years too late. iPhone was released in 2007. You would've needed BB10 at or before that time. Anything later and you would be arriving at the gate after the race started
    05-30-16 10:33 AM
  23. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Blackberry should have doubled down on the enterprise market and should have used the iPhone and Android's entrance to leapfrog the competition. The fact that they were completely unprepared by these developments proves that their management was complacent and saw their business as a cash cow. It wasn't enough that Blackberry was great for existing Blackberry users. Blackberry needed to enhance their value prop by demonstrating the superiority of their product (by building superior products) for the type of market it was geared to. They wasted too many resources on building random phones with no end games.
    If you read Losing The Signal, you'll find that Mike really was never focused on - or really cared about - the consumer market. Mike believed that saving carrier bandwidth and solving the 2G networking speed issue were the most important things. He created excellent solutions for those issues at the time, but once he did, he simply did not want to move forward. He fought against the carriers moving to 3G (he talked at least one into deploying "2.5G") and he advised Verizon against LTE (or any 4G). He remained convinced that smartphones were a corporate device, rather than a consumer device, and he convinced himself that the carriers would never allow Apple to offer full web browsing because of the data usage - he simply didn't believe that the carriers would invest in their own networks to meet the demand.

    In so many ways, Mike had his head in the sand, and even when it was clear that he'd made the wrong call, he stuck to his views and used BB's reputation and inertia (because for a couple of years, BB continued to grow - though mostly due to it expanding into emerging markets with low-end consumer devices) as Apple and Google blew past BB in technology and soon in marketshare. The reason BB didn't even start to work on a modern OS until 2010 is because Mike was virtually forced to do so, and could only hold back the tide that long.

    For all of Mike's brilliance in solving the problems of the early 2000s, Mike couldn't handle the constantly moving targets of the smartphone industry and spent his efforts trying to convince key players to slow down and stick with the old solutions instead of moving ahead. That is why BB is where it is today. The biggest and most important growth years for the smartphone business were 2009-2011 - that's where the bulk of the growth was, and that's when the winners were crowned by both consumers and developers. BB sat those years out for the most part, and by the time they tried to get back in the game, the game had long been finished and trophies awarded.

    As much as people here whine about Thor or Chen, it is Mike Lazaridis who they should be focusing their ire on, because, though he built the original tech that made people fall in love with BB, he also is the one who, over and over and over again, shot BB in the foot and let the competition fly by without doing a thing to even try to compete.
    Eumaeus, aha, TgeekB and 4 others like this.
    05-30-16 12:10 PM
  24. Eumaeus's Avatar
    All the "psychology" talk here amounts to nothing more than, "Folks who don't like what I like must be stupid."

    Any CEO who says "People aren't buying my product because they are brainwashed," is really saying "My company is failing with an inferior product, and we can't be bothered to understand why. We are doomed."

    People do not squander their money on expensive-but-inferior products, and especially those people without a lot of money. They certainly don't do it again and again.

    Apple did not sell a billion iOS devices because iOS devices are terrible, and people are stupid.

    My retired parents did not buy iPhones for fashion, or because anyone pressured them. They bought them knowing that they are of good quality and will last. They got very cheap iPhone 4's, and their iPhone 4's are still working great after several years. Most important, they knew they could walk into the Apple Store and get personal help at any time, actual help, with no pressure to buy more stuff. Blackberry has never offered that.

    Product. Price. Place. Promotion. The Priv, as a product, is interesting only because of its keyboard; otherwise, it is just-another-Android-phone. Its Price is too high. There is not Place where consumers can buy it (without being tempted by a million other, cheaper, Android phones) and get support without sales pressure. All the Promotion in the world won't fix that.
    TgeekB, MikeX74, early2bed and 2 others like this.
    05-30-16 01:12 PM
  25. aha's Avatar
    If you read Losing The Signal, you'll find that Mike really was never focused on - or really cared about - the consumer market. Mike believed that saving carrier bandwidth and solving the 2G networking speed issue were the most important things. He created excellent solutions for those issues at the time, but once he did, he simply did not want to move forward. He fought against the carriers moving to 3G (he talked at least one into deploying "2.5G") and he advised Verizon against LTE (or any 4G). He remained convinced that smartphones were a corporate device, rather than a consumer device, and he convinced himself that the carriers would never allow Apple to offer full web browsing because of the data usage - he simply didn't believe that the carriers would invest in their own networks to meet the demand.

    In so many ways, Mike had his head in the sand, and even when it was clear that he'd made the wrong call, he stuck to his views and used BB's reputation and inertia (because for a couple of years, BB continued to grow - though mostly due to it expanding into emerging markets with low-end consumer devices) as Apple and Google blew past BB in technology and soon in marketshare. The reason BB didn't even start to work on a modern OS until 2010 is because Mike was virtually forced to do so, and could only hold back the tide that long.

    For all of Mike's brilliance in solving the problems of the early 2000s, Mike couldn't handle the constantly moving targets of the smartphone industry and spent his efforts trying to convince key players to slow down and stick with the old solutions instead of moving ahead. That is why BB is where it is today. The biggest and most important growth years for the smartphone business were 2009-2011 - that's where the bulk of the growth was, and that's when the winners were crowned by both consumers and developers. BB sat those years out for the most part, and by the time they tried to get back in the game, the game had long been finished and trophies awarded.

    As much as people here whine about Thor or Chen, it is Mike Lazaridis who they should be focusing their ire on, because, though he built the original tech that made people fall in love with BB, he also is the one who, over and over and over again, shot BB in the foot and let the competition fly by without doing a thing to even try to compete.
    Brilliant!

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2876
    05-30-16 01:21 PM
96 1234

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