1. Indianagirl's Avatar
    What do I need to do? It should've detected the time change automatically. Help. The time is right now, but when we went to Illinois last weekend, it never changed. I took the battery out and everything. Nothing.
    12-27-08 09:44 AM
  2. Pete6's Avatar
    Do you mean time zone change?

    Have a look at this thread http://forums.crackberry.com/f3/expl...e-zones-46190/ It should help you understand how the BlackBerry handles timezones.
    12-27-08 09:47 AM
  3. Branta's Avatar
    If ALL of the following are true then BlackBerry should auto-detect time zone changes

    * The phone's time zone and time start as correct.
    * The phone is set to take time from network.
    * The network(s) on both sides of the zone change broadcast time and active zone in the standard format.
    * The phone hops between cells in different zones at the correct location if you are travelling by land. (Doesn't apply for air travel, when the phone is off network for a while it will always have to re-register)
    * The programming logic in the phone detects the change from cell towers in a timely manner and applies it.

    If one or more of these conditions is false your phone can't handle the failure, and you have to adjust it manually. In my experience I get problems more often than not, and I've decided human control of time zone is more reliable.
    12-27-08 10:05 AM
  4. jeffh's Avatar
    From what I have seen and read of BlackBerries and time zones, the last condition in your list is never satisfied because RIM didn't code it that way. I'm not aware of ANY BlackBerry that automatically changes time zones. In fact, RIM's documentation explicitly states that it doesn't. See the thread that Pete6 posted above.

    BTW, congratulations on making Master level.
    12-27-08 12:49 PM
  5. Branta's Avatar
    So what I said is technically correct, although unachievable in the real world. I'd missed your ref to RIM docs but ISTM this was an intelligent programming decision, human control is more reliable.

    I have a mental image of a user driving along a highway which follows the time zone boundary, and the phone (and user) going crazy as it hops zones between cells on either side of the road.
    12-27-08 01:14 PM
  6. AStranger's Avatar
    I have a mental image of a user driving along a highway which follows the time zone boundary, and the phone (and user) going crazy as it hops zones between cells on either side of the road.
    That sounds like quite the corner case. I personally want my phone to handle this mundane task for me since most phones already do it flawlessly, why should blackberries be different?

    I believe most phones can turn this off and make it manual if they want in any case.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-27-08 02:24 PM
  7. jeffh's Avatar
    There are valid reasons why BlackBerries handle time zones as they do. I list some of them in the thread that Pete posted for you.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-27-08 03:45 PM
  8. Branta's Avatar
    As Jeff says, there are good reasons for the way it works now - and also for the way you would like it to work. Equally, both approaches have a similar balance of reasons why NOT. Someone had to make a decision, and whatever the choice it was never going to satisfy everyone.

    You will very rarely find any complex techno device that meets all your wishes unless you design it yourself. Learn how BlackBerry works, test the advantages in other areas and make your choice - accept it or consider changing your phone.
    12-27-08 03:59 PM
  9. Branta's Avatar
    BTW, congratulations on making Master level.
    Damned meaningless statistics. What matters is how many struggling users I helped on the way to it.

    Does this mean I get a Mistress?
    12-27-08 04:02 PM
  10. jeffh's Avatar
    ...Does this mean I get a Mistress?
    We'll need a valid street address. No PO boxes.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-27-08 04:14 PM
  11. AStranger's Avatar
    Learn how BlackBerry works, test the advantages in other areas and make your choice - accept it or consider changing your phone.
    I truly hope you don't think those are the only options.

    It is not the job of consumers to shut up and adapt to the device. I take the option of finding the device I like best AND pointing out every flaw so the device maker can improve their device.

    It the device maker's responsibility to adapt to my needs so they can earn my money in the future.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-27-08 05:33 PM
  12. Branta's Avatar
    We'll need a valid street address. No PO boxes
    I need to consider the wisdom of this from the comfort of my bed.
    12-27-08 09:38 PM
  13. Branta's Avatar
    I truly hope you don't think those are the only options.

    It is not the job of consumers to shut up and adapt to the device. I take the option of finding the device I like best AND pointing out every flaw so the device maker can improve their device.

    It the device maker's responsibility to adapt to my needs so they can earn my money in the future.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I think these are the only practical options in the expected life of your current phone.

    Major changes in software (and this is a concept change so it's big, probably a complete redesign of multiple components) do not happen overnight unless you have critical leverage against the supplier. If you are one of the top 10 resellers you might have a chance to influence the next new phone, but even then each custom feature change is a simple cost/benefit analysis for the project to return maximum bottom line for the stockholders.
    12-27-08 09:50 PM
  14. AStranger's Avatar
    I think these are the only practical options in the expected life of your current phone.

    Major changes in software (and this is a concept change so it's big, probably a complete redesign of multiple components) do not happen overnight unless you have critical leverage against the supplier. If you are one of the top 10 resellers you might have a chance to influence the next new phone, but even then each custom feature change is a simple cost/benefit analysis for the project to return maximum bottom line for the stockholders.
    My main problem is that I don't see any real reason this feature itself can't be user configurable. Major change or not, it's about making the user's life better and hence getting users to buy a new device.

    This likely isn't bad enough on its own for me to return my blackberry or to not buy a new one, but this in aggregate with other things could be. I don't expect RIM to think that you or me, as an individual, are important enough for them to change what their doing, but in aggregate it makes a difference.

    I think too many users don't complain or give feedback because they know that they alone don't cause these changes, but they're wrong because if we don't say anything then they don't know and then they can't come out with a device that does suit our needs. That's why if RIM is smart, they have people reading these forums and others

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-27-08 10:05 PM
  15. Branta's Avatar
    I'm not aware of ANY BlackBerry that automatically changes time zones. In fact, RIM's documentation explicitly states that it doesn't.
    Do we even know for sure that cellular "network time" even references time zone? Or does it simply broadcast "local time" without any zone information?

    This might be the critical point in the discussion here - the availability of time zone information on the network signal. Without this there are only 2 options available, manual zone control, or no zone changes whatsoever and simply adjust the clock to local time - but this would cause Calendar to fail for the travelling user.

    ISTM we need someone with access to the cellular radio protocols.
    12-27-08 10:07 PM
  16. 8310Fan's Avatar
    I truly hope you don't think those are the only options.

    It is not the job of consumers to shut up and adapt to the device. I take the option of finding the device I like best AND pointing out every flaw so the device maker can improve their device.

    It the device maker's responsibility to adapt to my needs so they can earn my money in the future.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    It is the job of the consumer though to be aware of what product they themselves choose. And adapting to one's person 'mundane task'? Well, good luck on that one.
    12-27-08 10:43 PM
  17. AStranger's Avatar
    It is the job of the consumer though to be aware of what product they themselves choose.
    True, but most people can't investigate all the behaviors of a device. The point is that phone makers will sell more if they make the whole experience as smooth and effortless as possible.

    And adapting to one's person 'mundane task'? Well, good luck on that one.
    I didn't suggest that they should adapt to just me. They should adapt to the way that many people do expect and want their devices to behave. I am not alone in expecting my phone to handle a time change.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-27-08 10:58 PM
  18. jeffh's Avatar
    Do we even know for sure that cellular "network time" even references time zone? Or does it simply broadcast "local time" without any zone information?

    This might be the critical point in the discussion here - the availability of time zone information on the network signal. Without this there are only 2 options available, manual zone control, or no zone changes whatsoever and simply adjust the clock to local time - but this would cause Calendar to fail for the travelling user.

    ISTM we need someone with access to the cellular radio protocols.
    I don't know if cell towers broadcast time zones info. If you read the footnote in my Time Zones Thread, you'll see that I acknowledge not knowing that info.
    12-27-08 11:35 PM
  19. Branta's Avatar
    I don't know if cell towers broadcast time zones info. If you read the footnote in my Time Zones Thread, you'll see that I acknowledge not knowing that info.
    I found the 3G standards online this morning. Now we know "Time" and "Timezone" are Optional, so individual networks can implement each feature - or not. IMO this more or less kills it for current use by RIM because unpredictable network implementation would cause more chaos than it would resolve. The problems for smooth programming with dual mode CDMA/GSM "world" devices like Storm are even more complex where the 'standard' is probably different on each side of the fence.

    Time and Timezone are referenced in 22.042 and 24.008, latest links are

    http://www.arib.or.jp/IMT-2000/V710D.../22042-700.pdf
    http://www.arib.or.jp/IMT-2000/V710D.../24008-830.pdf

    (careful with 24008, its 550 pages and with the current far east connectivity problems I kept crashing during retrieval online)

    It's not easy to go back up from these docs, so here are the crucial base pages which provide full index for all the other info.
    http://www.arib.or.jp/IMT-2000/V710D...1_DS_index.pdf
    ARIB Association of Radio Industries and Businesses

    There's enough info in these pages to keep us out of the pub for a long time.
    12-28-08 07:56 AM
  20. jeffh's Avatar
    I pasted a permalink to your post into my Time Zone Issues thread to keep all the info accessible from one source.
    Last edited by JeffH; 12-28-08 at 09:26 PM. Reason: updated
    12-28-08 09:22 PM
  21. Branta's Avatar
    I pasted a permalink to your post into my Time Zone Issues thread to keep all the info accessible from one source.
    Good plan. Note for future readers - the direct links were current December 2008. You will need to explore the index documents to locate any later updates.
    12-29-08 07:46 PM
  22. jbeachy's Avatar
    Do we even know for sure that cellular "network time" even references time zone? Or does it simply broadcast "local time" without any zone information? <Snip>
    When I traveled by car through time zones with my old LG cell phone. I would watch it automatically switch time zones and the time correction.

    To my knowledge, all BlackBerrys capture only the minutes from the cell phone towers, not hour or time zone information. This has been beaten to death in this thread and the links above, but the BlackBerry is at heart a business-oriented device and for those managing schedules (eg, in Outlook or Notes) in multiple time zones, or for those who travel between time zones and must keep appointments in synch, RIM's approach rocks. Having spent two plus years on WM, I find RIM's methodology infinitely superior.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by jbeachy; 12-29-08 at 09:45 PM.
    12-29-08 09:42 PM
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