[mrsimon]

I've just read an article in La Vanguardia newspaper (Spain), talking about the current trend in phones and an industry suffering collateral damage: The camera industry.

The demise of the camera industry.
Sales of cameras have dropped to the same levels as 1979, and from a peak of 120,000,000 in 2010 to an expected 5 or 6 million in the next 2 years according to Fujio Mitarai, the CEO at Canon.
How much more easier is it to share and upload a photo from a phone?

People now take everyday 'snaps' with their phone, and more and more, the only people using 'proper' cameras will be professionals, with cheap and medium priced cameras disappearing canabilised by phones. Even some professionals are using iphones…

Personally, I sold my DSLR and bought a 3/4 mirrorless Olympus, but have only used it at a wedding and on a holiday.
Unless it's your hobby or an important occasion, will you be bothered about the absolute quality? I'm not.

And it's just as well, because, I use a Key2LE and a Motion, and I'm satisfied with the photos, as they are 'good enough' 99% of the time: a kid's birthday, an article in a newspaper, a strange building, a dish I'm eating, most of the stuff I'll hardly ever look at again.

So, IMHO, if BBMo survives, it might be worth bumping up the camera specs a bit, as it seems that most people, in the end, will only use a phone for 99% of their photos and the rest will be done by a paid professional.

How do you feel about it?

[John Albert]

BlackBerry never had a good camera.

[Elky64]

I've just read an article in La Vanguardia newspaper (Spain), talking about the current trend in phones and an industry suffering collateral damage: The camera industry.

The demise of the camera industry.
Sales of cameras have dropped to the same levels as 1979, and from a peak of 120,000,000 in 2010 to an expected 5 or 6 million in the next 2 years according to Fujio Mitarai, the CEO at Canon.
How much more easier is it to share and upload a photo from a phone?

People now take everyday 'snaps' with their phone, and more and more, the only people using 'proper' cameras will be professionals, with cheap and medium priced cameras disappearing canabilised by phones. Even some professionals are using iphones…

Personally, I sold my DSLR and bought a 3/4 mirrorless Olympus, but have only used it at a wedding and on a holiday.
Unless it's your hobby or an important occasion, will you be bothered about the absolute quality? I'm not.

And it's just as well, because, I use a Key2LE and a Motion, and I'm satisfied with the photos, as they are 'good enough' 99% of the time: a kid's birthday, an article in a newspaper, a strange building, a dish I'm eating, most of the stuff I'll hardly ever look at again.

So, IMHO, if BBMo survives, it might be worth bumping up the camera specs a bit, as it seems that most people, in the end, will only use a phone for 99% of their photos and the rest will be done by a paid professional.

How do you feel about it?

Pretty much agree with what you said here. Have had lots of dedicated cameras over the years but once phone's with acceptable shooters came along these cameras rarely see use, mostly those times when a decent zoom is a must.

Never owned a KEY2 yet for the nearly $900 CAD (cheapest) I'd have to dole out we'd definitely expect its camera to be above par in that price range, doesn't appear to be the case. Have a KEYone which supposedly rivals the KEY2's yet finding it to be lacking, can only imagine what the results with the latter would be then.

The way I look at it. If spending a fair amount of coin then a decent daytime shooter is a prerequisite. Why not have the whole package whether one uses it lots or minimally.

IMHO, if BBMo decides to continue they most definitely will have to find the resources to up their game here as it's been stale for far too long. Contrary to what many may think cameras on phones are a big selling feature, continually ignoring that fact will have others looking the other way. Some of my devices from as far back as 2012 had better cameras than anything BB or BBMo has offered so that shows how out of touch they are.

At the end of the day, and as it stands now, things are looking pretty grim in the BB World so expecting a decent shooter might be the least of our worries

[Gene Fells]

In Asia, a phone is defined by its camera and jewelry appeal. Social media rules and phones without a decent camera to capture awesome pictures of bowls of noodles (on full auto of course) will sell poorly.

I also own 3 x M43 camera + lenses + flash units. They sit in the dry safe 24/7. The best camera is the one you have with you.

Speaking of cameras, I am interested in the Nokia 9. If operated correctly and with some decent editing of the RAW files, the images are far superior to anything else from a phone.

[Bbnivende]

Pretty much agree with what you said here. Have had lots of dedicated cameras over the years but once phone's with acceptable shooters came along these cameras rarely see use, mostly those times when a decent zoom is a must.

Never owned a KEY2 yet for the nearly $900 CAD (cheapest) I'd have to dole out we'd definitely expect its camera to be above par in that price range, doesn't appear to be the case. Have a KEYone which supposedly rivals the KEY2's yet finding it to be lacking, can only imagine what the results with the latter would be then.

The way I look at it. If spending a fair amount of coin then a decent daytime shooter is a prerequisite. Why not have the whole package whether one uses it lots or minimally.

IMHO, if BBMo decides to continue they most definitely will have to find the resources to up their game here as it's been stale for far too long. Contrary to what many may think cameras on phones are a big selling feature, continually ignoring that fact will have others looking the other way. Some of my devices from as far back as 2012 had better cameras than anything BB or BBMo has offered so that shows how out of touch they are.

At the end of the day, and as it stands now, things are looking pretty grim in the BB World so expecting a decent shooter might be the least of our worries

TCL’s resources are going to the screen first and camera second on their own branded phones.

I suppose there might be a trickle down effect but I doubt it.

[conite]

Funniest thing is seeing all these phone users taking pictures in portrait mode. It always makes me laugh.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

TCL’s resources are going to the screen first and camera second on their own branded phones.

I suppose there might be a trickle down effect but I doubt it.

I think in today devices it's just as much in the software as the hardware. Using multiple images and even multiple cameras to create the best shot. At one time I think Apple had close to 800 people working on their camera systems.... Lenses, Sensors, Imaging Processing Chips, Software....

Verizon's now talking about having a OnePlus 7 Pro phone in 2020... I really don't hold out much hope for TCL doing "premium" phones. And I doubt $100 phones is a viable long term business...

[bh7171]

I think in today devices it's just as much in the software as the hardware. Using multiple images and even multiple cameras to create the best shot. At one time I think Apple had close to 800 people working on their camera systems.... Lenses, Sensors, Imaging Processing Chips, Software....

Verizon's now talking about having a OnePlus 7 Pro phone in 2020... I really don't hold out much hope for TCL doing "premium" phones. And I doubt $100 phones is a viable long term business...

I don't think anyone really knows what TCL is planning with their phones. If they follow their TV model and provide a easily updatable version of Android they will succeed.

https://www.maxim.com/.amp/gear/tcl-...-series-2019-9

[Bla1ze]

Funniest thing is seeing all these phone users taking pictures in portrait mode. It always makes me laugh.

To me it's the fact everyone talks about the camera and the need for a really great one but then just turn around and upload them to social media where they get compressed and gritty anyway. You see it all the time.. 'Great shot! What was it taken with?' As if it even matters. The standard of a great camera somehow, if the majority of people are being honest with themselves, is based on how good a photo looks on social media. That's pretty whack.

[TgeekB]

To me it's the fact everyone talks about the camera and the need for a really great one but then just turn around and upload them to social media where they get compressed and gritty anyway. You see it all the time.. 'Great shot! What was it taken with?' As if it even matters. The standard of a great camera somehow, if the majority of people are being honest with themselves, is based on how good a photo looks on social media. That's pretty whack.

You mean everyone who uses a smartphone isn’t a professional photographer? Weird.

[bh7171]

To me it's the fact everyone talks about the camera and the need for a really great one but then just turn around and upload them to social media where they get compressed and gritty anyway. You see it all the time.. 'Great shot! What was it taken with?' As if it even matters. The standard of a great camera somehow, if the majority of people are being honest with themselves, is based on how good a photo looks on social media. That's pretty whack.

That's EXACTLY the point made in Marques Brownle's comparison with @ 7 million total voters voting in platforms where most mobile phone images are viewed. It was phenomenal. I especially loved all the tech writers "shock". Great stuff..

[TgeekB]

In Asia, a phone is defined by its camera and jewelry appeal. Social media rules and phones without a decent camera to capture awesome pictures of bowls of noodles (on full auto of course) will sell poorly.

[conite]

To me it's the fact everyone talks about the camera and the need for a really great one but then just turn around and upload them to social media where they get compressed and gritty anyway. You see it all the time.. 'Great shot! What was it taken with?' As if it even matters. The standard of a great camera somehow, if the majority of people are being honest with themselves, is based on how good a photo looks on social media. That's pretty whack.

A 100MB Raw photo converted to 250KB.

[Bla1ze]

In Asia, a phone is defined by its camera and jewelry appeal. Social media rules and phones without a decent camera to capture awesome pictures of bowls of noodles (on full auto of course) will sell poorly.

To be fair, that's not just Asia.

[anon(10321802)]

To be fair, that's not just Asia.

Great shot! What was it taken with?

[Bbnivende]

I don't think anyone really knows what TCL is planning with their phones. If they follow their TV model and provide a easily updatable version of Android they will succeed.

https://www.maxim.com/.amp/gear/tcl-...-series-2019-9

Actually TCL was quite clear about their ambitions. They want to be in mid range devices and have the best screen.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Funniest thing is seeing all these phone users taking pictures in portrait mode. It always makes me laugh.

Me too. It drives me nuts! Every other display they might ever view the picture on is landscape orientation, but they insist on taking every picture in portrait.

[Troy Tiscareno]

I think in today devices it's just as much in the software as the hardware. Using multiple images and even multiple cameras to create the best shot. At one time I think Apple had close to 800 people working on their camera systems.... Lenses, Sensors, Imaging Processing Chips, Software...

That's exactly right. Most people have no idea how much of the picture quality is ultimately the result of software. The images right off the sensors wouldn't please most people, but with the post-processing available on some of the better phones, it can replace a dedicated camera for most people, including those who make large prints or view them on a real, large monitor rather than an Instagram feed.

I know that Apple, Samsung, Google, etc. have large camera teams and employ several each of the "gurus" of photo post-processing - experts who make big bucks and who are responsible for making sure they are squeezing the very best performance out of every camera regardless of how awful the situation is for photos - bad light, back-lighting, motion, etc.

The problem for the smaller companies is that such expertise is expensive and in very short supply, yet it's absolutely necessary to get great performance out of a given lens/sensor package. If it was as simple as buying a better camera, everyone would do it, but two phones with identical sensors can have very different performance due to the post-processing. If you want to play with the big boys, you have to be able to afford a large camera team and an expert or two to run them, and THAT means you need to have some significant revenue.

Some of that post-processing is also limited by the SoC of the phone, because the GPU performs most of the work. That's one reason that the best-performing cameras are always paired with a flagship processor.

[Rootbrian]

I have three digital cameras.
Two are 12 mp (one with far better optics), and one 5mp. They all take photos (and video) leagues better than any smartphone on the market. No app to depend on, period.

From my BlackBerry Q5 on Freedom Mobile 3G HSPA+

[mrsimon]

Actually TCL was quite clear about their ambitions. They want to be in mid range devices and have the best screen.

Never heard they wanted the best screen. The screen is compromised to not drain the battery. And the cameras so far have been sufficient for OK photos, also to keep the cost down. TCL could use one of their new camera units to cut costs of course.

But, the point is that they are not trying to compete in the camera market. And they are targeting consumers like us who put up with or don't care about camera specs and a huge OLED screen, but do want a PKB with a long life battery.

A better camera would be a nice bonus for us. The BlackBerry tax already bumps up the price, so if you want better specs and processor and screen with your PKB, you'll get shorter battery life and a high price. You can't have your cake and eat it.

And with a very niche PKB market, who knows what the future will be.

[Elky64]

And they are targeting consumers like us who put up with or don't care about camera specs and a huge OLED screen, but do want a PKB with a long life battery.

Logically they lack resources and the expertise but if one wants to believe they are doing it for "us" then ummmm, OK.

[Bbnivende]

Never heard they wanted the best screen. The screen is compromised to not drain the battery. And the cameras so far have been sufficient for OK photos, also to keep the cost down. TCL could use one of their new camera units to cut costs of course.

But, the point is that they are not trying to compete in the camera market. And they are targeting consumers like us who put up with or don't care about camera specs and a huge OLED screen, but do want a PKB with a long life battery.

A better camera would be a nice bonus for us. The BlackBerry tax already bumps up the price, so if you want better specs and processor and screen with your PKB, you'll get shorter battery life and a high price. You can't have your cake and eat it.

And with a very niche PKB market, who knows what the future will be.

This article explains TCL’s new strategy. It remains to be seen how this strategy might affect any new BlackBerry phones .

https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile...-ifa-2019/?amp

A new BlackBerry is probably not a priority or maybe dead.

[darkdoomer]

Phones should not have cameras built-in to begin with.
You want a camera? Get a cybershot or a canon or a little pocket nikon, it will beat any phone even if it's an old 12Mpx you found at 10, 20€ on eBay.

According to the laws of physics, you cannot have a decent picture through plastic lenses or elements, and a shutterless sensor the size of a rice grain. You can multiply the amount of cameras, it is pointless and complete idiocy, but the generic smartphone consumer being illiterate will believe it will improve the quality.

Even me I carry a Sony Alpha whenever I go out, with a decent zoom, because there's ALWAYS something fun to snap. also, it's true, I can afford lenses and stuff because unlike an android or apple, I don't need to buy a new phone every year.

[Chuck Finley69]

I know understand why BBMo/TCT put out the Key2 device as is. Since last year, I dual carried KEYones and XR until I activated the eSIM couple weeks ago.

The pictures I take, were just fine on the BBMo hardware. I miss BBAndroid compared with iOS although I prefer iOS over Android itself. The advantages of longer support, OEM and carrier, necessitated KEYones retirement for me but I’m not happy.

As far as the camera quality, if carriers would fully support Key2 enhanced calling features, I could have cared less about the latest and greatest camera. It would have just made the device more expensive and lowered sales even further. That being said, if camera is that important, other companies have years of R&D already. The VKB form makes a lot more sense consuming digital content. There’s no scarcity need solution for BBMo to solve in this demographic space. TCL Plex will have to compete with everyone in the VKB space. It’s not what people associate with the BlackBerry name from brand image perspective.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Phones should not have cameras built-in to begin with.
You want a camera? Get a cybershot or a canon or a little pocket nikon, it will beat any phone even if it's an old 12Mpx you found at 10, 20€ on eBay.

According to the laws of physics, you cannot have a decent picture through plastic lenses or elements, and a shutterless sensor the size of a rice grain. You can multiply the amount of cameras, it is pointless and complete idiocy, but the generic smartphone consumer being illiterate will believe it will improve the quality.

Even me I carry a Sony Alpha whenever I go out, with a decent zoom, because there's ALWAYS something fun to snap. also, it's true, I can afford lenses and stuff because unlike an android or apple, I don't need to buy a new phone every year.

You carry a Sony Alpha (and a good lenses) with you everywhere.... ?

Clearly you are outside the norm and have different views on the matter. It's really a personal choice, smartphone camera doesn't meet your needs.... that's fine. But for the other 99% the do, and they don't have to update every year. My wife's iPhone 7 still takes great shots, but not as great as my daughters iPhone 11.

No one really doubts that a good DSLR in the hands of someone that really knows what they are doing isn't a better option for quality photos. It's just that most aren't going to carry a DSLR around and most aren't familiar enough to use one well. Same reason Point and Shoots out sold DSLR. People use what works for them...