[Branta]

Is this another antenna issue with apple which effects Sweden customers?

Does Apple hate Swedes? — European technology news

Europe is GSM/UMTS territory, this is nothing to do with antenna selection for CDMA fallback. It appears that Apple has made a commercial judgement not to configure additional frequencies and protocols which are not yet fully confirmed and for which the majority of networks are not yet available.

[GTiLeo]

CDMA is voice only. LTE, at least for the carriers in question, is data only until they implement VoLTE ( Voice over LTE).
While the antennas can handle one or the other, they cannot handle both simultaneously.
With Apple, they chose to put out a phone that cannot do both simultaneously at this point in time with the carriers whose fall back system for voice is CDMA. They could have installed a third antenna which would be able to handle the voice while the other two handle data but decided to let people suffer until the VoLTE option was implemented by their carrier.
The question is, can the antennas that RIM is using handle both LTE and CDMA simultaneously or will they add a second antenna. Or will they just let their customers wait until VoLTE is implemented by their carriers�

maybe by the time BB10 comes out they won't need the extra antenna, maybe VoLTE will be availible

[TGR1]

Space, battery and cost. The same reasons will likely apply to RIM if they leave out this functionality as well.

In retrospect battery probably plays a significant role. As I understand it Apple chose a chipset that supports multiple bands to cover a fairly wide set of vendors but that takes its power toll by having to search more frequencies. Given that maintaining previous generation battery life has long been their mandate, they probably took this limitation in favor of simplifying model lines.

Truly global LTE coverage looks like its a nightmare.

[TGR1]

But seeing as ONLY Apple is doing it and Android and Microsoft aren't doing it the safer bet is RIM would be the same as the norm and not try and have LESS features than 2012 models

It's not necessarily about less features. What it will mean is more models, each tuned specifically to the frequencies used in each region. That's added cost and complexity for RIM that will need to be justified. Will offering such a feature be a net gain?

RIM is also more like Apple than like Google or Microsoft, who have multiple hardware licensees that take on the burden. Like Apple RIM is shouldering it all. I don't think it's an easy decision.

[_StephenBB81]

mike changed his quote after the discussion with DeRusett. The quote DeRusett has is the original quote and no wrongdoing occurred.

Exactly
AND I left the quote in tact because if RIM does screw up and doesn't allow simultaneous voice/data on CDMA then Mike can take claim over "calling it" even if it was just a poor choice of words at this time.

[_StephenBB81]

It's not necessarily about less features. What it will mean is more models, each tuned specifically to the frequencies used in each region. That's added cost and complexity for RIM that will need to be justified. Will offering such a feature be a net gain?

RIM is also more like Apple than like Google or Microsoft, who have multiple hardware licensees that take on the burden. Like Apple RIM is shouldering it all. I don't think it's an easy decision.

RIM unlike Apple through owns Parateck AND is using a single chip while I believe Apple is using 2 chips, 1 for voice/data and one for processing/graphics so RIM wont have the battery implications that Apple has.

Now RIM COULD go the Apple way, but they don't own a market like Apple does, so they need to make sure they are bringing to the table the big features, and as a business user Voice & data are a REQUIREMENT for me today, after a 3h conference call if I had to wait for all the supporting emails to come in that would kill me even if it was over LTE, also often you can address the emails during the call. IF RIM is to be targeting business users which is the claim being able to say "simultaneous voice & data on verizon" is a selling feature over previous BB's and NOW over Apple, and during RIM's design phase I'm sure they didn't expect Apple to leave out simultaneous voice and data

[hpjrt]

RIM unlike Apple through owns Parateck AND is using a single chip while I believe Apple is using 2 chips, 1 for voice/data and one for processing/graphics so RIM wont have the battery implications that Apple has.

Now RIM COULD go the Apple way, but they don't own a market like Apple does, so they need to make sure they are bringing to the table the big features, and as a business user Voice & data are a REQUIREMENT for me today, after a 3h conference call if I had to wait for all the supporting emails to come in that would kill me even if it was over LTE, also often you can address the emails during the call. IF RIM is to be targeting business users which is the claim being able to say "simultaneous voice & data on verizon" is a selling feature over previous BB's and NOW over Apple, and during RIM's design phase I'm sure they didn't expect Apple to leave out simultaneous voice and data

So is this voice/data problem strictly in the US or are there Canadian carriers who pose similar restrictions to the I5?

[tmelon]

So is this voice/data problem strictly in the US or are there Canadian carriers who pose similar restrictions to the I5?

If there are CDMA carriers in Canada, yes. Like everyone has been saying before, 99% of CDMA phones don't support voice and data at the same time.

In my opinion they'll probably choose to not support it for the same reason they didn't put autofocus in the Bold 9900.

[wxmancanada]

I'm reading through all of this trying to figure out who's best to quote and answer - a lot are right - and a lot just don't understand how CDMA works. What I really don't get is all the people saying that RIM better not screw up and they'd best make new phones that support voice and data on CDMA. That's a carrier thing, not a handset thing. Even if RIM wanted to, they'd have a hefty battle with the carrier.

For CDMA devices to offer voice and data, they'd require two entire channels between the phone and the tower, which would then require another modem within the phone, which would then double the channel slots required on the tower, per phone. This means one phone is now taking up the tower footprint of two. To me, it sounds like a make work project. There's a reason CDMA is being phased out in certain regions. I suspect those who offer CDMA+LTE will wait for voice + LTE, then shut down their CDMA network.

[jonno_atamaniuk]

Telus is HSPA. My understanding is that is not CDMA based. Please note I recognize that may be a stupid statement as HSPA may not ever be CDMA based (apples can't be based on oranges) but the bottom line is my understanding is that the CDMA/GSM issue is moot on HSPA. If anyone can confirm/deny or otherwise enlighten me that would be great.

- R.

Yes, you're 100% correct.

Bell and Telus built out brand new HSPA networks NOT COMPATIBLE with their old CDMA networks. This is why you suddenly see a whole lot of HSPA / GSM phones popping up on their networks. Now this said, while it is an HSPA network, it does not support the GSM standard, and so older devices that don't support UMTS won't work.

As well, someone said that GSM was able to do simultaneous voice and data? I was always under the impression that this only came into play with HSPA/UMTS, as it was able to actually allow for that almost like when DSL / Cable suddenly allowed people to surf the web at high speed and still use their phone.

RIM would be wise to actually follow Android on this path (as well as give Verizon / Sprint a Global model just to one-up Apple and be a better choice for globe-trotting business people), OR employ a new technology known as SV-DO (as opposed to EV-DO) within their devices. This is a branch of CDMA that does allow simultaneous voice and data. That said, I'm not 100% certain if Verizon has deployed this option as of yet, and if they have no phones that I know of support it. It was rumoured that the HTC Thunderbolt employed the technology but that was far back enough that I don't recall 100%.

[jonno_atamaniuk]

So is this voice/data problem strictly in the US or are there Canadian carriers who pose similar restrictions to the I5?

All Canadian carriers of the iPhone 5 are HSPA/LTE (Rogers is I believe the only GSM network). This will not be a problem for the iPhone 5 in Canada. What annoys me about the iPhone 5 is they removed the world-roaming capabilities for anyone on Verizon / Sprint, making the latest iPhone potentially only for those who will travel in the USA, Canada, and other CDMA-using countries... in other words, no corporation that goes to Europe.

[Roo Zilla]

All Canadian carriers of the iPhone 5 are HSPA/LTE (Rogers is I believe the only GSM network). This will not be a problem for the iPhone 5 in Canada. What annoys me about the iPhone 5 is they removed the world-roaming capabilities for anyone on Verizon / Sprint, making the latest iPhone potentially only for those who will travel in the USA, Canada, and other CDMA-using countries... in other words, no corporation that goes to Europe.

Not exactly correct. All 3 iPhone 5 models will support WCDMA up to HSDPA Cat 24 and HSUPA Cat 6. The Verizon/Sprint version will support LTE bands 1, 3, 5, 13, and 25. This means is supports more non-NA LTE bands than either of the "GSM" versions of the iPhone 5, which means it is actually the "best" version for international roaming. Almost all previous LTE phones have only supported 1-2 LTE bands, with iPhone 5 (especially the Verizon/Sprint version), you should be able to roam and use LTE in a bunch of other countries that have launched LTE.

[FoxxBerry]

So after reading this entire thread its safe to assume nobody knows what BB10 phones will be able to do in regards to this. Its possible if this.....They should do this.... Can I offer that I hope they will do whatever they need to do to make this happen.

[DuexNoir]

Any feature BB10 can offer one-over the iPhone will be good. That's all I can say.

[louie5552]

I am pretty sure apple said they chose not to include that feature because they use the 2nd antenna for better reception where android uses it for talk and data.

[Roo Zilla]

I am pretty sure apple said they chose not to include that feature because they use the 2nd antenna for better reception where android uses it for talk and data.

Actually, LTE requires at minimum 2 antennae. 2-receive antenna diversity (MIMO) is a required LTE spec, one of the antennae can be shared to transmit. The Android devices that have simultaneous voice and data on LTE actually have a 3rd antenna that acts as transmit only on EVDO, while sharing receive antenna with LTE. This config actually enables simultaneous voice and data over EVDO too, as there are now two transmit chains available, and two receive chains as well.

[stackberry369]

I wamt bb20 now with 5D.lol