01-03-12 10:42 AM
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  1. lnichols's Avatar
    RIM's folly is NOT BIS though, RIM's folly has been lack of easy to develop for devices, and thus a non starting ecosystem,

    BIS IS not the issue, and the HUGE resources required to change that infrastructure would put BB10 2-3 years back instead of just 1 year back, you fundamentally change the way RIM does business, it isn't like throwing a switch.

    RIM's focus needs to be on getting the Devices to be hot, and the ecosystem to be attractive, RIM's push infrastructure can actually make App development attractive with pinnings into BBM,
    BIS is not attractive to carriers in the US though. It costs them $60 per year per user, plus a support staff for the BIS accounts and why they have dedicated blackberry support departments for Blackberry devices. Google and Apple control the infrastructure so carriers only have to support the end device and make sure data can reach the apple and google servers. If it was good for them they would push Blackberry devices, not Droids and iPhones.

    It would be simple for RIM to change the infrasture with the BB10 rollout, instead of getting a carrier.blackberry.net e-mail you get a us.blackbery.net or something similar account and talk to a RIM owned/controlled BIS. Only support this on BB10 and up devices, and Playbooks. In fact it would be easier for RIM to support because all phones from the US would be setup to work with one BIS domain instead of having to have an OS release for every carrier provisioned to separate BIS per carrier. All the data goes through the NOCs anyway, it would just be RIM in total control and letting carriers run the BIS.
    01-01-12 08:03 PM
  2. californiablackberry's Avatar

    This thread needed a picture.
    phonejunky likes this.
    01-01-12 08:17 PM
  3. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    BIS is not attractive to carriers in the US though. It costs them $60 per year per user, plus a support staff for the BIS accounts and why they have dedicated blackberry support departments for Blackberry devices. Google and Apple control the infrastructure so carriers only have to support the end device and make sure data can reach the apple and google servers. If it was good for them they would push Blackberry devices, not Droids and iPhones.

    It would be simple for RIM to change the infrasture with the BB10 rollout, instead of getting a carrier.blackberry.net e-mail you get a us.blackbery.net or something similar account and talk to a RIM owned/controlled BIS. Only support this on BB10 and up devices, and Playbooks. In fact it would be easier for RIM to support because all phones from the US would be setup to work with one BIS domain instead of having to have an OS release for every carrier provisioned to separate BIS per carrier. All the data goes through the NOCs anyway, it would just be RIM in total control and letting carriers run the BIS.

    Creating the us.blackberry.net BIS server would create an entirely new set of problems for RIM globally, where BIS servers get hosted, and management for them, How do none BES businesses manage OS7 and OS10 devices when they are fundamentally different? where do the management fees go? as RIM would still need to charge someone management fees for BIS, they can't run it at a loss, they are not a big enough company to do something like that.
    01-01-12 08:28 PM
  4. herculesinwyoming's Avatar
    carrier installed apps on my torch cant be deleted buy on my droid they can be deleted. so i say blackberries do have bloat ware.
    01-01-12 08:37 PM
  5. BBB78's Avatar
    Many friends I know have lost all their data with a I-OS upgrade and/or an I-phone upgrade, even after backing everything up in i-tunes.

    With Blackberry OS updates your more likely to keep your data especially when you regularly Back-up using Blackberry Protect and the Desktop Manager...and if you're on BES it's all synced anyway
    01-01-12 08:42 PM
  6. BBB78's Avatar
    carrier installed apps on my torch cant be deleted buy on my droid they can be deleted. so i say blackberries do have bloat ware.
    ...hmmm with a bit of editing of the loader files you can delete the carrier installed apps ... (as an ex-hybrid builder I speak from experience)
    01-01-12 08:47 PM
  7. lnichols's Avatar
    as RIM would still need to charge someone management fees for BIS, they can't run it at a loss, they are not a big enough company to do something like that.
    And so what do they do in the US? If they rely on carrier to pay them for cloud services where Apple and Google do not what would you push as a carrier? Basically what you are implying is that RIM cannot compete with Apple and Google in a smartphone market where data is plentiful and carriers don't offer cheap blackberry plans to relieve strain from immature data networks. I guess I have higher expectations from a company that once had $70 billion market cap. It is only a matter of time until developing markets are developed and they will hit the same walls that they are hitting in the US.
    01-01-12 08:47 PM
  8. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    And so what do they do in the US? If they rely on carrier to pay them for cloud services where Apple and Google do not what would you push as a carrier? Basically what you are implying is that RIM cannot compete with Apple and Google in a smartphone market where data is plentiful and carriers don't offer cheap blackberry plans to relieve strain from immature data networks. I guess I have higher expectations from a company that once had $70 billion market cap. It is only a matter of time until developing markets are developed and they will hit the same walls that they are hitting in the US.
    Their 70 Million market cap was largely in part because of their Data Management services,

    and you want to fundamentally change how they do that data management service.

    I'm saying RIM Needs to compete on the front end with Apple and Google, They need to have an available ecosystem that will have consumers WANTING BlackBerrys if Consumers want BlackBerry's the Carriers will carry BlackBerry's and Will pay the $5/month, as they just pass the cost off to the consumers anyway, just as other countries do.

    The US Consumer market needs to be addresses as an individual market, RIM can't address the business to business market in the US differently than they do the rest of the world, or they risk losing everything, and legacy support for OS6,7 devices would be a nightmare to deal with from administration side of things,
    Technically it wouldn't be Overly difficult, but from a business standpoint they would be cutting off their foot to save a toe.

    RIM needs to be competing where they are on the way to be competing, with an OS that is easy to develop for, hardware that will run the latest and greatest apps with ease, and traditional BlackBerry services that kept people BlackBerry users when BlackBerry had far fewer bells and whistles compared to the competition.
    01-01-12 09:09 PM
  9. lnichols's Avatar
    Their 70 Million market cap was largely in part because of their Data Management services,

    and you want to fundamentally change how they do that data management service.

    I'm saying RIM Needs to compete on the front end with Apple and Google, They need to have an available ecosystem that will have consumers WANTING BlackBerrys if Consumers want BlackBerry's the Carriers will carry BlackBerry's and Will pay the $5/month, as they just pass the cost off to the consumers anyway, just as other countries do.

    The US Consumer market needs to be addresses as an individual market, RIM can't address the business to business market in the US differently than they do the rest of the world, or they risk losing everything, and legacy support for OS6,7 devices would be a nightmare to deal with from administration side of things,
    Technically it wouldn't be Overly difficult, but from a business standpoint they would be cutting off their foot to save a toe.

    RIM needs to be competing where they are on the way to be competing, with an OS that is easy to develop for, hardware that will run the latest and greatest apps with ease, and traditional BlackBerry services that kept people BlackBerry users when BlackBerry had far fewer bells and whistles compared to the competition.
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject because I don't see RIM making Blackberry devices so compelling to consumers over iOS or Droid in the short amount of time needed before they lose complete mindshare in the US. If they are too small to eat the cost on the ecosystem as you stated before, they are too small to pull off the marketing needed to pull off the kind of demand to make carriers accept the fee, or to convince the public tje $5 more per month is worth it if the cost is passed to them.
    01-01-12 10:16 PM
  10. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject because I don't see RIM making Blackberry devices so compelling to consumers over iOS or Droid in the short amount of time needed before they lose complete mindshare in the US. If they are too small to eat the cost on the ecosystem as you stated before, they are too small to pull off the marketing needed to pull off the kind of demand to make carriers accept the fee, or to convince the public tje $5 more per month is worth it if the cost is passed to them.
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree
    I look at the implications to all their corporate and global infrastructure at them taking control of BIS management themselves, and giving US customers a "free pass"
    RIM losing 20% of their revenue, would kill their cash flow, and throw them into months of contract renegotiation with every carrier around the world.

    Then after giving up 20% of their revenue RIM needs to invest in spending MORE money creating a new ecosystem to compete with Apple and Google, either through partnerships they wont have time to groom because they are fighting globally with carriers and Enterprises, or through a home grown solution again without the time to cultivate it.

    RIM's focus needs to be on adding value to BIS, not removing it,
    RIM can add value to BIS for the carrier by integrating cloud solutions into BIS, creating a "vendor lock in" with email addresses, creating carrier billing in app world to give carriers a piece of that pie, allowing carriers a piece of BBM Music through carrier billing, and cloud storage addon's with Carrier billing and carriers getting a piece, the incentive is for carriers to upsell the addon's to counter the cost of the $5 per user, RIM's financials have a consistent revenue stream which ads value to the company, and gives investors something to believe in.

    They risk a stockhold revolt if they risk their 20% cash cow, which many feel is worth more than the rest of the company,
    01-01-12 10:35 PM
  11. tmelon's Avatar
    Something you forgot to mention is OTA updates.

    On iOS5 you can receive delta updates now and the whole process is quick and easy. You just go to Settings > Software Update > and then just click install if there's one available. It'll download, install, and do a restart, all in less than 5 minutes.

    I never got the chance to do an OTA update on my old BlackBerry because of my carrier, is it similar?
    01-01-12 10:36 PM
  12. southlander's Avatar
    IF RIM can market their products to have the must have features AND maintain the NOC it is best for all involved,

    the death of the NOC will put RIM much further behind than it's competitors since RIM's competitors all do far more than just make phones.

    I have a feeling security will become a MUCH larger concern for the average Joe using a smartphone than it has been. Perhaps if RIM holds out the NOC will give them some advantage in all this.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9930 using Tapatalk
    spike12 and melb_me like this.
    01-01-12 10:37 PM
  13. maxiang's Avatar
    I'd like to see this change @ RIM with BB10. At least in the US and here is why. RIM gives too much power to the carriers. I'd love to see RIM in control of the BIS and not the carriers, much like apple is in complete control of the ecosystem. Why not just get a generic BIS account tied to a Blackberry ID and when I switch carriers I get to keep my BIS e-mail and it becomes much more plausible to use it as a main e-mail because I know I'll have it as long as I stick with Blackberry, not if I stick with Blackberry and the same carrier. Updates are pushed by RIM and not the carrier. The carriers in the US are not working in RIM's best interest anymore, and in fact from all the stories we read on here from purchasers, the carriers are doing everything they can not to sell Blackberry phones. It is a major shift and would start the end of RIM getting revenue from BIS, because neither Apple or Google charge for entrance to the ecosystem, but its going to need to be done soon in the US because the carriers are no longer RIM's good faith business partner they once were.
    Agreed.


    ~Sent via Carrier Pigeon~
    01-01-12 10:42 PM
  14. ichat's Avatar
    I have a feeling security will become a MUCH larger concern for the average Joe using a smartphone than it has been. Perhaps if RIM holds out the NOC will give them some advantage in all this.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9930 using Tapatalk
    Yea perhaps RIM should hang in there As the average guy finds out Android and iOS stalk them, theyll run to RIM!!!!!
    01-01-12 10:45 PM
  15. ichat's Avatar
    ...hmmm with a bit of editing of the loader files you can delete the carrier installed apps ... (as an ex-hybrid builder I speak from experience)
    Yea but the average guy doesnt even know half way around a computer. How the will they be able to?
    01-01-12 10:46 PM
  16. maxiang's Avatar
    *snip*maybe that's why a BB has much better call quality and reliability.
    In my experience with the 4S on AT&T, I've found signal strength, call quality, and reliability to be just as good as my previous Berry's. And the noise canceling mic has made it much easier for the other parties to hear when I'm in high background noise areas compared to my 9700


    ~Sent via Carrier Pigeon~
    01-01-12 10:49 PM
  17. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    In my experience with the 4S on AT&T, I've found signal strength, call quality, and reliability to be just as good as my previous Berry's. And the noise canceling mic has made it much easier for the other parties to hear when I'm in high background noise areas compared to my 9700


    ~Sent via Carrier Pigeon~
    Good good but the Bold 9900 is a huge improvement over the 9700
    01-02-12 01:25 AM
  18. ekv's Avatar
    My only problem with the way BB devices update is that they dont differentiate between minor hot fixes and major updates.

    I am willing to wipe my device for a major version update like 5 to 6. But the same update process is also needed to upgrade even between minor versions like 6.0.0.668 to 6.0.0.706 (if I want the latest OS for my device)

    If they enabled OTA updates independent of the carrier at least for the minor fixes, I will be a happy camper
    01-02-12 08:09 AM
  19. emirozmen's Avatar
    I prefer Apple's way!
    And fr bloatware ---> ANDROID
    01-02-12 08:11 AM
  20. karaya1's Avatar
    Carriers in the US dont mind paying BIS when the average BB user is using a fraction of the data per month than an iphone or Android device doing the same tasks. It is beneficial on their network speed and reliability if more BB's are being used as a ratio to the other devices. Rim is not paying for the advertising which is why we dont see a campaign. Verizon didnt foot the total bill for the storm campaign, just like they don't for the ******** razr commercials.

    If Rim wanted the carriers to run similar advertisements, they would pay for it. I dont know why they don't. It would help sales in the USA significantly.
    01-02-12 08:31 AM
  21. maxiang's Avatar
    Good good but the Bold 9900 is a huge improvement over the 9700
    I don't doubt that, my point is that while previous iPhones may have suffered from poor call quality (I tried the 4 for a week and noticed the antenna thing before I bought the 4S), the current iPhone has great reception

    Back on topic: I agree that waiting for carriers is a pain (did AT&T ever release OS 6 for the 9700???), but RIM does provide updates directly to end users...in an indirect way LOL!!! Other carriers releases and beta leaks have been on my Berry's for years


    ~Sent via Carrier Pigeon~
    01-02-12 09:41 AM
  22. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Rim does releise OTA updates, just not to the core OS, bb protect, bbm, mediasync, email setup, podcast, social feeds etc etc, they and more come with the OS and they do get OTA updates.
    Last edited by belfastdispatcher; 01-02-12 at 09:59 AM.
    01-02-12 09:49 AM
  23. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I don't doubt that, my point is that while previous iPhones may have suffered from poor call quality (I tried the 4 for a week and noticed the antenna thing before I bought the 4S), the current iPhone has great reception

    Back on topic: I agree that waiting for carriers is a pain (did AT&T ever release OS 6 for the 9700???), but RIM does provide updates directly to end users...in an indirect way LOL!!! Other carriers releases and beta leaks have been on my Berry's for years


    ~Sent via Carrier Pigeon~
    RIM provides PCless OTA OS updates for the PlayBook, ( I think the first consumer electronic device to offer that actually) so they have the infrastructure, The speculation is it will be rolled out with BB10 to have OTA OS updates on devices, the shift they have done with hardware in OS7 devices vs OS6 devices for more unification lends to the thought that they are looking to make OS updates more streamlined in the future.
    01-02-12 01:21 PM
  24. avt123's Avatar
    RIM provides PCless OTA OS updates for the PlayBook, ( I think the first consumer electronic device to offer that actually) so they have the infrastructure, The speculation is it will be rolled out with BB10 to have OTA OS updates on devices, the shift they have done with hardware in OS7 devices vs OS6 devices for more unification lends to the thought that they are looking to make OS updates more streamlined in the future.
    The Nexus line of Android phones have been getting OTA updates since the Nexus One. Every Android device has had OTA updates as well. There is no PC update software for it (besides ADB).

    I never used a PC at all to update my Android device.
    Last edited by avt123; 01-02-12 at 01:32 PM.
    01-02-12 01:30 PM
  25. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    The Nexus line of Android phones have been getting OTA updates since the Nexus One. Every Android device has had OTA updates as well. There is no PC update software for it (besides ADB).
    Then I stand corrected, I was unaware the Nexus line did OTA OS updates, and did not require you to back up on a PC, I always thought they only issued OTA patches and you had to go get them they were not pushed
    01-02-12 01:32 PM
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