I think people who want RIM to keep up with Apple and Android are missing the point.

iOS and Android are consumer driven operating systems born out of the consumer market. There sole focus is the consumer experience and if you happen to be able to be productive in business with it it's a plus.

RIM was born out of the corporate market, it is first a corporate device, with consumer enhancements added to it. I think RIM is in a different lane altogether and should not be expected to compete with apple or android.

I enjoy my Blackberry. I would like for certain things to be improved, primarily the browser, but outside of that I don't need HD video capture and editing, or many of the other features touted by the iphone and android users. If I did, I would get one of those devices.

I believe it is an apples to oranges argument. Just my opinion.

How many users have a BB for work and an Android/Apple phone as their personal device? If I were RIM, I'd look to change that. Why must business and consumer phones be mutually exclusive? Look how well the Storm sold despite bad reviews. People want the best of both worlds. They are lacking in the features Android and Apple have so I don't mind them trying to catch up there.

Originally Posted by Slapnpop826

iOS and Android are consumer driven operating systems born out of the consumer market. There sole focus is the consumer experience and if you happen to be able to be productive in business with it it's a plus.

RIM was born out of the corporate market, it is first a corporate device, with consumer enhancements added to it. I think RIM is in a different lane altogether and should not be expected to compete with apple or android.

I enjoy my Blackberry. I would like for certain things to be improved, primarily the browser, but outside of that I don't need HD video capture and editing, or many of the other features touted by the iphone and android users. If I did, I would get one of those devices.

I believe it is an apples to oranges argument. Just my opinion.

I think you are missing the point of the Apple v. Android v. RIM.

With the "smartphone movement" going forward, RIM has nothing to offer that the other two platforms don't already cover. BBM? Android (being a Google device) always has Google talk logged on. Sounds alot like BBM, always on way of talking w/o using text messages, and you can do it across seas for free. Push Email. I get my Google Mail on my phone before i get it on my computer. Talk about being pushed out in a hurry. And with Apple now offering Mutli-Tasking you can easily log onto G-Talk, Yahoo!, AIM or any other number of services and do the same thing. And with MobileMe, Push email is extremely simple for Apple phones.

So what does RIM have to offer in the corporate world that Android and Apple don't already have a solution for?

Originally Posted by jetman1287

How many users have a BB for work and an Android/Apple phone as their personal device? If I were RIM, I'd look to change that. Why must business and consumer phones be mutually exclusive? Look how well the Storm sold despite bad reviews. People want the best of both worlds. They are lacking in the features Android and Apple have so I don't mind them trying to catch up there.

I agree with this statement 110%, i see a ton of users out there have have a RIM device because the HAVE to have one, not because the want one. There is a difference there. If my work issued me a phone and said use this, and we'll pay for the time, talk and data. I would gladly keep my phone, but it they said you can use any phone you want, as long as it has a 24/7 method of connection other than voice, and needs pushed email... that leave the door wide open.

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You are missing the obvious paradigm shift. Since the Pearl 8100 the BlackBerry as
a primarily business device no longer holds water.

There are so many people that are buying BlackBerrys now that use them exclusively
for personal purposes. It is these people that are driving the push toward more
consumer / prosumer friendly devices and rightly so.

RIM needs to do one of two things (neither of which will be easy or immediate)
1) Develop devices for business-centric users and devices for general users
2) Fully invest in creating devices that seamlessly bridges the gap.

I'm not going to get into the "catching up" argument but I am sure the folks at
Waterlooo know this and at some point may move in one of those directions.

When you look at the corporate side, there are some things that the BlackBerry provides that still keep it in the eyes of large corporations. BES lets the company decide the security level. They can block certain features of a phone, wipe them if needed, and even control access to apps and such. That doesn't mean much to an end user, but if you have a lot of trade secrets, it can mean a lot.

MDS gives corporations the ability to have their employees access data-intensive connections while out in the field. This isn't about e-mail, but other apps. Some companies use invoicing/ordering apps that tie in directly to their servers. The MDS connection gives them a secure connection where they can place orders, check inventor status, and so on.

MVS gives employees the ability to have their office extension directly on their BlackBerry. They can dial extensions, check voicemail, and be seen by their office number/extension. Plus, they have added VOIP.

There are more features to BES, and they won't mean much to consumers. But for large corporations, it can mean a lot. From what I've seen, it's more about control than anything. It's not just about BBM and e-mail.

Blackberries = Rear Projection & Tube TV

Iphone + Android = LCD & Plasma Flat Panel TVs


Its not rocket science to see which one is growing and which one isn't.


And I've got a Blackberry Curve 8310, but looking at the current lineups its clear as my analogy above.

BlackBerry = tool

iPhone + Android = toy

Originally Posted by RegE

BlackBerry = tool

iPhone + Android = toy

Completely disagree. People want their devices to be both tool and toy. Just because the Android/Apple phones have weaker messaging capabilities does not make them toys.

Originally Posted by jetman1287

Completely disagree. People want their devices to be both tool and toy. Just because the Android/Apple phones have weaker messaging capabilities does not make them toys.

Weaker messaging capabilities? really ? i can crank out 10 time as many words on on my android that i could on my 9700...

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You gotta admit that the BB was designed to be a tool - a workhorse, while the other devices were designed as a media device to appeal to the masses. Think about the security; the encryption; the firewall; the calendar with invite feature; the e-mail capibilities. These attributes are indicative of a product that's designed to be a workhorse and to aid in productivity!

I'm not gonna slam either of the other devices because I don't have any experience with them, other than, I tried to type with the Evo with one hand and found it very difficult as it was too bulky.

I do agree that comparing BlackBerry to Android or iPhone is like comparing apples to oranges. I refuse to say one's better than the other. I'm sure each device has it's pluses and minuses, and each device will appeal to a particular market. I use my phone as a PDA and a communication device. That's all I need! I don't need all the other frivolous apps, music and games.

Originally Posted by mjneid

Weaker messaging capabilities? really ? i can crank out 10 time as many words on on my android that i could on my 9700...

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I actually wrote 50 pages of a story I was writing because I didn't have my laptop with me and I would never have been able to do that with my android.

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Originally Posted by mas3222

I actually wrote 50 pages of a story I was writing because I didn't have my laptop with me and I would never have been able to do that with my android.

I hear you! I've generated many documents and reports using DocumentsToGo on my BB. I went to BestBuy to play with the Evo and I just couldn't type as proficiently. I don't know if it was the lack of tactile feedback, or what. I can almost type as fast on my BB as I can on the PC. Only thing is, on the BB, I have to look at the keyboard and crafting a lengthy document puts a horrible crook in my neck. Lol

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Originally Posted by mjneid

Weaker messaging capabilities? really ? i can crank out 10 time as many words on on my android that i could on my 9700...

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Now I agree the statement
"BB= tool / iBrick Android = toy" is false, I can't imagine HOW you could type so slowly on a physical keyboard compared to a touch screen, I'm a fast BB typer but I only drop maybe 10/20% efficiency when moving to a touch screen, for me that means about a half hour a day extra spent typing.

I don't believe touch screens will every fully match physical keyboards for efficiency

IF they could, you'd see high end PC's using a touch screens for their keyboards, and Optimus keyboard would never have entered development.

Originally Posted by RegE

BlackBerry = tool

iPhone + Android = toy

Wow, that was deep.

Originally Posted by deRusett

Now I agree the statement
"BB= tool / iBrick Android = toy" is false, I can't imagine HOW you could type so slowly on a physical keyboard compared to a touch screen, I'm a fast BB typer but I only drop maybe 10/20% efficiency when moving to a touch screen, for me that means about a half hour a day extra spent typing.

I don't believe touch screens will every fully match physical keyboards for efficiency

IF they could, you'd see high end PC's using a touch screens for their keyboards, and Optimus keyboard would never have entered development.

when i had my 8900 and my 9700 i could max out around 38 WPM.... when i picked up swype for my android i think 2 weeks into it, and still learning / getting accustom to / swype i was at 43 WPM.....

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Originally Posted by mjneid

when i had my 8900 and my 9700 i could max out around 38 WPM.... when i picked up swype for my android i think 2 weeks into it, and still learning / getting accustom to / swype i was at 43 WPM.....

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so you typed at 1.1 times the speed, not 10 times the speed,

which is a dramatic difference, and I assume you never used autotext with your BB to add to your word speed, using autotext I would venture to say I can achieve 5-7 WPM more in everyday communication, add to that the speed difference between not having to look at the keyboard while reading and looking is another gain of 3-5 WPM, though that can be negligible because I'm sure many touch screen users are at the point they can type without looking now, or will soon enough.

honestly if i wanted a $200 toy in my hand that can play games, download apps and delete everything all on it's own without me touching a button, i'd go out and buy the newest PSP. my blackberry does what i need it to do and more. that's just my opinion though and i do agree with the OP that blackberry's are still considered a business minded cell phone. one of the main reasons why blackberrys got so popular in the last year or so for the regular consumer to run out and get was because Pres. Obama sports one and refuses to switch out. I got my blackberry because of my job and being able to get my emails lickity split.

Originally Posted by deRusett

so you typed at 1.1 times the speed, not 10 times the speed,

which is a dramatic difference, and I assume you never used autotext with your BB to add to your word speed, using autotext I would venture to say I can achieve 5-7 WPM more in everyday communication, add to that the speed difference between not having to look at the keyboard while reading and looking is another gain of 3-5 WPM, though that can be negligible because I'm sure many touch screen users are at the point they can type without looking now, or will soon enough.

i'm not going to fight with you over the internet,



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I can't imagine having a Blackberry as my "personal" device. I can type much faster on my iPhone and Nexus One than I can on my 9700. Overall, I like the IP4, Nexus One, then 9700, in that order. When my 9700 is in my hand, I feel limited to what I can do. The graphics seem like I'm playing with a Super Nintendo or something. Sorry, I want high quality applications, that are pleasing to my eyes.

Originally Posted by mjneid

i'm not going to fight with you over the internet,



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swype does look like a great idea,
I still don't see in what world 38WPM to 43WPM is 10 time the speed, but exaggeration aside, the swype slides look like RIM PR video's very idealistic
if I only typed at 40WPM on my BB, it wouldn't be a viable substitute for my notebook which again if according to swype I did Sub 60WPM I would never get to sleep at nights losing near 20-30% of my average typing speed.

It is completely a preference thing, and now that I am exploring this swype thing I really hope they expand the ideas of it to physical keyboards, it would be similar to auto correction in MSword but seem far more intuitive. I have heard of the program but until seeing the image of it you posted, then having to go hunt it down after it getting deleted I must appreciate the quality of the software, still does not look like it would help me replace autotext nor increase my daily speed as it looks like number combinations would be a challenge to do with any speed, but for a consumer it looks like a great texting assist program

I think there's a place for everything out there. Some people like the multimedia devices, some people are more text-heavy; some people like touchscreens and some people prefer tactile keyboards (that aren't slide-out keyboards).

Personally, my blackberry does exactly what I want it to do. Sure, the media aspects aren't as robust as an Android device or an iPhone, but I don't watch movies or TV on my phone and the media player is sufficient for my purposes. I type better on a tactile keyboard than a touchscreen - and am less likely to hit the wrong app or typo with a keyboard. I don't have to look at my keys anymore and can type at about 75% my regular WPM.

For me, having integrated push email and push notifications on my apps, IM programs, etc and having a stellar battery life is more important than having the multimedia aspects that Android and Apple give. I'd rather have the communication device on a device I'm more comfortable and proficient with. And the battery life on a Blackberry blows Android and Apple out of the water.

It's amazing how quickly android owners jump into this threads on a blackberry forum to defend their pride and joy. Are android forums too crowded or something? Maybe some people can type faster on touch screens but try it in a moving vehicle, walking, direct sunlight, light rain etc, you know, real life situations, and don't say you can dictate your messages in a noisy coffee shop.

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Originally Posted by belfastdispatcher

It's amazing how quickly android owners jump into this threads on a blackberry forum to defend their pride and joy. Are android forums too crowded or something? Maybe some people can type faster on touch screens but try it in a moving vehicle, walking, direct sunlight, light rain etc, you know, real life situations, and don't say you can dictate your messages in a noisy coffee shop.

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before i seem to be jumping with both feet..... i've posted this before...i have some 3k post on here...i would say all but about 50 of them i was a blackberry owner. I've spent alot of time on this board and boards just like it. in fact i was one of the first "pillars of the community" over @ T-Mo's forums, with some 2k+ post over there with 1800 in the RIM section..... I personally had the fastest count to 75 on "marked correct" answered questions over there... and they have employees on the board with typical user names.

I know Blackberries in and out. and that is my point in helping people out who need it...

When i am answering a RIM related question, as an Android owner, i leave Android out of it. That isn't the place nor time for it.

but when some on a Blackberry board, goes out of their way to bash Apple and Android i will step up and voice my opinion.

You can claim "fan boyism" if you want to, thats fine, i've owned my fair said shares of RIM device. But people who put their head in the sand and don't know whats going on around them, are just as much "fan boi" as i appear to be.

And i have grown to like, love, and cherish some of the friendships that i have grown through this web site, and thus keeping me around. I do not have an account with Android Central or AndroidandMe for reason.

And please do me a favor.... try and find one post where i out right with no disregard have put down RIM devices.... it wouldn't happen... i won't do it....

but can i find one post where a RIM user put down another device other than and RIM device...... sure they're everywhere.....

Don't take this the wrong way, I love the BB OS, however, the thing that makes me not like RIM is the fact that ever since they have been marketing a lot of models to the consumer market, the quality of the phones have diminished. My first bb was 8300, warranty exchanges 2x and then got an 8310 which started having problems and when the Bold 9000 first was released, I bought one $ 500 after mail in rebate and even during the first 30 days exchanged the bold for 2x other phones because the issues were *2x Canada Bold and 1x made in Hungary* and the first Canadian and the Hungary had their own issues *usb port quit working, dropping calls, rebooting, locking on to edge and quality of calls were crap*. The 3rd bold worked perfectly until after the factory warranty ran out and now the Mute Button/Stand By button works whenever it wants. Very Annoying and I have not dropped nor have I abused the phone at all.

I am looking at the competition because I am not a fan of the 9700 Bold *too small for my tastes* and I am afraid of the quality of the h/w on any of the newer phone because I expect a $ 500 phone to last at least 2 years not start having problems after 13 - 15 months. I heard the older pre 81XX and 83XX 88XX models, these phones were practically indestructible but the current trend is release a model that breaks down. As for the RIM OS versus the Competition, let's see RIM blows the competition away for e-mail because of the whole push vs pull e-mail scheme, but the os is lacking in web browsing, camera *well having hd recording would be cool but something better then 3.2 mp would be great. I say focus more on making better made hardware as well as get the browser, camera and everything else up too par, I guarantee that more people would stay with BB.

The downside to RIM and Apple goes back to the 80s when Apple and MS were fighting for the top spot in computers, Apple had to control the hardware and software, similar to what is happening with the iPhone and even rim is doing it with BB. Where as MS was just making the os/software and selling it to the hardware manufacturers *ibm, hp/compaq, dell, gateway and etc* where MS is still doing that even with windows mobile and Google is doing with Android. With multiple phone manufacturers selling phones with the Android and WM is better competition for the consumer. Where as Apple and RIM, are controlling to keep their environments running on similar specs = a fail because where does the higher quality come into play when over the years, htc, samsung, nokia and lg have strived to release a superior quality phone versus their competition. This is just my opinion if apple and rim also let other manufacturers release phones with their os, we as consumers would be beneficial as we could always choose the better quality versus being stuck with the same cookie cutter design..

HTH,
Charlie

Originally Posted by jetman1287

How many users have a BB for work and an Android/Apple phone as their personal device? If I were RIM, I'd look to change that. Why must business and consumer phones be mutually exclusive? Look how well the Storm sold despite bad reviews. People want the best of both worlds. They are lacking in the features Android and Apple have so I don't mind them trying to catch up there.

I don't believe that blackberry smartphone are lacking in features. Their only shortcomings in my opinion are the truncated emails and web browser. Other than those, blackberry's operating system is one of the best if not the best around. I like my android device, bit the operating system isn't as efficient as the blackberry OS. Sure I have a better multimedia experience and some cool features, but when it comes to efficiency, android isn't in the same league with blackberry. At least not yet.

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