01-09-12 02:59 AM
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  1. Rickroller's Avatar
    That's a little exaggerated don't you think? Or do you mean theoretically possible, because there are a ton of Android phones that won't see 3.0, much less 4.0. Heck a lot won't even see 2.3. I would imagine that, theoretically, some 3-4 year old BBs could run some newer OS, if given enough technical attention.
    You're right, there are a ton of Android phones that won't see 3.0, because 3.0 is tablet software.

    And the only way 3-4 year old BBs could run newer OS's is if you ripped the guts out and put in new hardware..because even a year ago, while the rest of the world was introduced to dual core processing, RIM was still running 600Mhz processors.
    01-08-12 07:06 PM
  2. BoldtotheMax's Avatar
    Don't know why people keep saying the BB7 devices 'won't be supported' when BB10 is released. Did they stop supporting BB5 when BB6 or BB7 came out? Do you think your BB7 phone will suddenly stop working when BB10 launches? New models from all manufacturers are constantly coming out with software that is not backward compatible. And I don't want to hear about iPhones, because the iOS5 that runs on a 4S is no more the same one that runs on a 3Gs than BB7 on a 9900 is the same as on a 9810. I don't get what's the big deal.
    This!

    It amazes me how people feel if Rim fails that their devices will cease to exist.....come on people.

    Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk
    01-08-12 07:07 PM
  3. palmless's Avatar
    On the other hand:
    Q: "Wait, you mean this new one does exactly the same thing as my old one?"

    I still don't get your point.

    No one can fully commit to two totally incompatible OSes. MICROSOFT had to converge the Win3 and NT OS trees, they couldn't deal with the fragmentation.

    RIM's plan means you'll have a new, unproven OS that none of the old timers will try, and an aging OS that doesn't do anything new OS's do. Textbook bad move, and through in the Osborne Effect which screams "STAY AWAY" to anyone half awake.

    Bad, bad move, though the true believers will applaud.

    Same happens on major IOS updates, some apps don't work straight away,
    And the developers fix them, since they know that they aren't orphaning prior users by doing so. The prior users can simply upgrade their OS, free and easily. USUALLY with a minor performance improvement to boot.

    This!

    It amazes me how people feel if Rim fails that their devices will cease to exist.....come on people.
    Exactly! When If (I am trying to be really kind) RIM fails, the devices will become irrelevant yet continue to be used and continue to exist. Ask over at the Amiga forums. None of their machines ceased to exist when Amiga pulled a RIM.
    Last edited by Palmless; 01-08-12 at 09:41 PM.
    01-08-12 09:38 PM
  4. app_Developer's Avatar
    Same happens on major IOS updates, some apps don't work straight away,
    On Android, iOS, and Windows, developers are given complete SDKs (with all of the APIs) months in advance. So there is always plenty of time to study and prepare.

    For example, with iOS5 there were many apps updated the week it shipped, because we had very good quality complete SDKs since June. Most of the needed updates were minor, and most actually were the result of developers own mistakes in the prior versions of their apps. Most well written iOS4 apps continued to work without any changes on iOS5. Same is definitely true of ICS.

    And even with Mango, changes were communicated very well and well in advance.

    If "amateurs" like Apple, Microsoft, and Google can communicate so well, I'm sure the pros at RIM can.
    01-08-12 10:56 PM
  5. BBThemes's Avatar
    RIM's plan means you'll have a new, unproven OS
    you right!!! hey, heres an idea, you think they should use the same OS they have on their PlayBook

    /sarcasm (if you didnt already guess)

    seriously. you lost any credit when you said `unproven OS`, OS2 will be around 6 months old by the time handsets come out.

    that none of the old timers will try.
    heres the thing, people dont walk into stores and go `i want the phone with iOS5, or ICS or OS7, they go `i want blah blah latest handset`. people wont for the most part even really know about the OS
    Last edited by BBThemes; 01-08-12 at 11:12 PM.
    spike12 likes this.
    01-08-12 11:09 PM
  6. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    On Android, iOS, and Windows, developers are given complete SDKs (with all of the APIs) months in advance. So there is always plenty of time to study and prepare.

    For example, with iOS5 there were many apps updated the week it shipped, because we had very good quality complete SDKs since June. Most of the needed updates were minor, and most actually were the result of developers own mistakes in the prior versions of their apps. Most well written iOS4 apps continued to work without any changes on iOS5. Same is definitely true of ICS.

    And even with Mango, changes were communicated very well and well in advance.

    If "amateurs" like Apple, Microsoft, and Google can communicate so well, I'm sure the pros at RIM can.


    Bingo.

    This is why I refuse to pass the buck on the relative dearth of third party apps to the developers. It is RIM's responsibility to get the ball rolling. They need to fix this.
    01-08-12 11:45 PM
  7. app_Developer's Avatar
    Bingo.

    This is why I refuse to pass the buck on the relative dearth of third party apps to the developers. It is RIM's responsibility to get the ball rolling. They need to fix this.
    Yes, it is their responsibility. And they do seem to be trying. To get back to the point of this thread, they just got way ahead of themselves announcing the shiny new BBX/10 too early, and probably shipping the Playbook too early as well (two different serious errors). Hopefully these next couple of months are when they start to emerge out from that hole.
    01-09-12 12:04 AM
  8. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Yes, it is their responsibility. And they do seem to be trying. To get back to the point of this thread, they just got way ahead of themselves announcing the shiny new BBX/10 too early, and probably shipping the Playbook too early as well (two different serious errors). Hopefully these next couple of months are when they start to emerge out from that hole.
    I have a theory on that, and it runs along the lines of panic over the iPad 2's debut. Add that to the arrogant pricing and--the point of this thread--lack of lead time for developers, and it was a recipe for disaster.

    Had they gone for, maybe, a summer launch, or even pushed it back to fall, the "newness" of the iPad would have worn off. They also would have had a fair time to address other issues.
    01-09-12 12:10 AM
  9. Economist101's Avatar
    seriously. you lost any credit when you said `unproven OS`, OS2 will be around 6 months old by the time handsets come out.
    You got him there. Everyone knows that if you're around for 181 days, you're officially "proven." How obvious. I mean, what was that guy thinking?
    01-09-12 12:24 AM
  10. sam_b77's Avatar
    Wishful thinking.

    Jump with me to December 2012, and pretend that RIM is actually selling a BB X/10 phone.

    Q "I saw the ad about ______ feature, show me how it does that"
    A "Well, this blackberry and this blackberry that I am selling new today don't do that and never will, only this one"

    Q "I saw that the new OS is out with a bunch of new features, how do I get that OS on the phone I bought twelve hours ago?"
    A "You don't get the new OS and never will, but you are eligible for an upgrade in 729.5 days"
    Q "What, is this an Android?!?!?!"

    Q "OK, I'm considering porting my app to the new BB OS now that it supports ___ feature. They have lots of users, right?"
    A "Well, not exactly. You're talking about the new OS and so far it only has ___ users. Most of the users are on the old OS and can't upgrade"
    Q "OK, so my ad for my new app needs to say 'Now available for Blackberry!*' in big print, and in small print '*Only works with blackberries sold after ___ 2012, and only 25% of those'? Pass."

    They may not precisely understand that it's the bone-headed OS strategy to blame, but they will understand that something is much worse than it is now with RIM. If we ever even get to that point.
    You would have a point if only you could explain why my Macbook which I upgraded to Lion does not support the latest and coolest feature called Airdrop??

    I didn't complain to Apple and called them a bunch of jokers. I understand that I have an older model and if I want the latest features I need to loosen up the purse strings.
    01-09-12 01:15 AM
  11. app_Developer's Avatar
    You would have a point if only you could explain why my Macbook which I upgraded to Lion does not support the latest and coolest feature called Airdrop??

    I didn't complain to Apple and called them a bunch of jokers. I understand that I have an older model and if I want the latest features I need to loosen up the purse strings.
    A little different, don't you think?

    Most MacBooks sold in the past three years support AirDrop. And that's just one feature in Lion. If I make a Lion app you will still be able to download it even though you have an older MacBook.

    On the other hand, I could publish an app for BB10 in December 2012, and someone who bought a top of the line BB phone in, say, August 2012, would have no access to it and no hope of upgrading unless s/he buys a new phone, which is tough in countries where phones come with 2 year commitments.

    From a developer perspective, it's a little scary to think that absolutely none of the 75 million BB users will be able to upgrade to BB10 without buying a new phone. Not a single one. And it's not like they can upgrade to BB10 missing certain features. They cannot run the OS at all, even if they buy their new phone next month or this summer. And even after the launch, you have this confusion about selling potentially a mixed product line of some BB10 phones, and some still BB7, completely incompatible with each other. (I really hope RIM won't do that to us! But I keep hearing they will even in 2013.)

    Imagine, when the Mac AppStore was announced, that Apple told us: "hey, guys, btw, just so you know, none of our current Mac customers will be able to buy your app until they buy a new Mac first. Oh, and maybe some of our new Macs in 2012 won't support Lion, so those new customer can't buy your app either. Cool?"
    Last edited by app_Developer; 01-09-12 at 01:37 AM.
    01-09-12 01:30 AM
  12. sam_b77's Avatar
    A little different, don't you think?

    Most MacBooks sold in the past three years support AirDrop. And that's just one feature in Lion. If I make a Lion app you will still be able to download it even though you have an older MacBook.

    On the other hand, I could publish an app for BB10 in December 2012, and someone who bought a top of the line BB phone in, say, August 2012, would have no access to it and no hope of upgrading unless s/he buys a new phone, which is tough in countries where phones come with 2 year commitments.

    From a developer perspective, it's a little scary to think that absolutely none of the 75 million BB users will be able to upgrade to BB10 without buying a new phone. Not a single one. And it's not like they can upgrade to BB10 missing certain features. They cannot run the OS at all, even if they buy their new phone next month or this summer.

    Imagine, when the Mac AppStore was announced, that Apple told us: "hey, guys, btw, just so you know, none of our current Mac customers will be able to buy your app until they buy a new Mac first. Cool?"
    Ok, so as a developer you suggest a way out for RIM.

    The operating conditions are :
    1) Their current BBOS is nearing the end of life and BBOS 7 is about as far as they get with the platform.

    2) The tech advances in mobile software brought out by iOS and Android will not be possible with upgrades of the current BBOS and RIM needs are completely new OS to match up.

    3) Any OS they bring out to compete with iOS and Android would be a big enough departure from the BBOS that easy porting of Apps would not be possible. However with this strategy they risk losing developers and customers as per your assessment.

    4) If they maintain compatibility then the new OS will not be anywhere near iOS and Android and you would be amongst the first to cast a stone.

    Really what SHOULD RIM do in this situation?
    The fact is that if BB10 was being release by XYZ company with no prior history then most developers would be salivating over it and jumping over each other to develop for it and customers would be interested if the form factor is as great as it looks.

    As things stand right now, it is RIM's legacy which is hurting it. On the one hand you object to RIM abandoning the legacy OS while on the other you complain about RIM not deploying a modern OS.

    How would you converge the legacy OS and a new OS so drastically different that it has to compete with iOS and Android?

    Isn't it like RIM is being punished for being in the market for more than 10 years and providing reliable service? Their legacy itself is pulling them down.
    01-09-12 01:42 AM
  13. app_Developer's Avatar
    Ok, so as a developer you suggest a way out for RIM.
    Well, I would say this:

    Announcing BBX in 2010, a full two years, potentially more, before shipping was pretty silly. Even Adam Osborne wasn't announcing completely incompatible products two years in advance! Now, obviously, there is nothing RIM can do to go back in time and fix that crucial mistake, and I understand that.

    So I think the best they can do is make the best decisions going forward. According to their own projections, units sales are now declining. On Jan 24, we'll likely hear that Apple is now outselling them even outside of the United States. And of course, other companies have already surpassed them now outside of the US.

    So I think if RIM is going to stay in the hardware business, then it needs to focus on BB10 exclusively next year. There is no point in riding the BB7 sales down to nil, if it's just confusing new users and confusing new developers. If BB10 is their operating system, then it should be their operating system. Full stop.

    It's a difficult transition, yes, but there is no easy answer given how badly they have managed the situation over the past 5 years now. Yes, they will lose the low end cheap phone sales, but I think we'll see those evaporate in 2012 anyway as the Indian and Chinese manufacturers ramp up their Android devices further.

    And I think they will have to open up BES/BBM to other operating systems, whether that is spun off from RIM as a different company, or they license the BB brand to Asian manufacturers, or whatever the right structure is. I think that is smarter than trying to squeeze another 2-3 years out of the old BB7 diehards.

    And lastly, they must admit to themselves that they are absolutely awful at marketing. They need to immediately decide if this is the fault of their own marketing team or the agencies they employ. Or maybe it's really both. If it's both, then they need to get rid of both now before they go out and spend hundreds of millions more. To turn around their image, they have no choice but to be excellent marketers. Every technology company that has managed to turn themselves around has excelled at this skill.

    Isn't it like RIM is being punished for being in the market for more than 10 years and providing reliable service? Their legacy itself is pulling them down.
    Yes, it's called the Innovator's Dilemma. This has happened to many companies for many centuries.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 01-09-12 at 02:17 AM.
    01-09-12 02:01 AM
  14. sam_b77's Avatar
    Yes, they will lose the low end cheap phone sales, but I think we'll see those evaporate in 2012 anyway as the Indian and Chinese manufacturers ramp up their Android devices further.


    And lastly, they must admit to themselves that they are absolutely awful at marketing. They need to immediately decide if this is the fault of their own marketing team or the agencies they employ. Or maybe it's really both. If it's both, then they need to get rid of both now before they go out and spend hundreds of millions more. To turn around their image, they have no choice but to be excellent marketers. Every technology company that has managed to turn themselves around has excelled at this skill.




    Yes, it's called the Innovator's Dilemma. This has happened to many companies for many centuries.
    Well they shouldn't be bothered about the low end spectrum vanishing.

    The low end $70 Androids are bought by people who do not use data. TBH the buyers of that phone are people like my driver and house help.

    They never use data.
    The data users are still buying Curves at nearly $200.00. Thing is people who would buy the Curve would never buy the low end spectrum Androids because they are considered to be a "poor" man's choice.

    As for Innovator's Dilemma, this would happen to every company.
    01-09-12 02:59 AM
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