[Just Me]

Remember the excitement when RIM acquired TAT? People at RIM saw the potential in The Astonishing Tribe which was camped right outside Google's front door. Android lovers know what they lost.



It been a long time since we have really seen anything astonishing from any tribe on our BlackBerrys. The Scrapbook app got a nice update, but from what I know about TAT and their forward thinking, that was probably put that together over weekend while relaxing with friends. That solitary app represent but a fraction of real potential TAT brings to RIM and to mobile computing in general. Cascades has really peaked my curiosity and excitement.

I'd like to propose 2 scenarios on what happened since the wonderful/dreadful day on February 17th, 2010.

Scenario 1
After the acquisition TAT remained intact. They moved to a small unknown village at the end of an isolated fj�rd. They were later joined by an elite BES security force and a select core of QNX engineers. Only there were they able to escape the search giants and apple cloners. The only access they have had with RIM executives was to be supplied with the cutting edge prototype hardware. Meanwhile back at RIM headquarters and the manufacturing facilities worldwide despite heavy casualties, the remainder of the BlackBerry team bravely bought them time by launching a solid set of BBOS 7 devices and continuing to grow the brand. The legal team protect the intellectual property while the executive continued to pursue tech savvy acquisitions, manage the cash flow and thwart hostile takeovers.

All this would culminate in the eventual launch of the ever elusive next generation super phone.

Scenario 2
After the acquisition RIM sat TAT down in the Canada boardroom. There they were each assigned a middle manager, told to learn french and giving a lengthy course on RIM's past dominance in the smart phone industry. After multiple meetings focused on the importance of security to the average consumer, TAT was divided up and issued fragmented projects including, a new BBOS 5 styled UI for QNX and an Angry Bird app. Balsillie yielded to Bettman and purchased a basketball team while Lazaridis enjoyed too much Pi, never to work in the non theoretical mobile technology field again. About 2 years later greedy shareholders bypassed an antitrust commission and sold RIM off in pieces and then auctioned their patent portfolio in an event similar to the Nortel travesty. Only after some search giant indexed all our BBM messages for individual focused advertising campaigns on our phones did we realize our horrible irreversible mistake.

What was shown at DevCon 2011 has rekindled my hope that scenario 2 was avoided and infact RIM is again out infront, busy cutting a new path in the development of mobile technology. Leading takes time and patience, BBX will be here soon enough.

I miss TAT.se, their "stuff we like" blog has been silent for far too long.

[BaconMunch]

Nice to see some creativity or at least exciting unlikely case scenarios on board.

I think what TAT is trying to do based on their exclusive work with baking modules and tools into the NDK is the premise "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll eat for life.
Scrapbook and a few other apps were never meant to be mainstay apps, baking tools into the NDK is what they were meant to do and we're ONLY BARELY...GETTING that now. Sometimes I get frustrated that instead of TAT making the tools, why not use that energy and make a fantastic app? But I realize it's the developers that have much to gain in the long run and truly we are in the midst of that transition..is it too little too late? We'll find out after DevCon if the additional tools do roll into more app submission and NDK based apps.

[KQ9]

I have a feeling that there's a lot of OS2 surprises that arent being shared at all. Keeping things quite. I mean how the **** does a company this big not have much to offer for show? Not even "show"? Definitely theres an elephant hiding somewhere, and I think TAT is going to be all over the new PIM apps. They screwed off the Java Player PIM approach for a reason.

And of course, in November developers should get the TAT NDK.

[samab]

I miss TAT.se, their "stuff we like" blog has been silent for far too long.

Those are futuristic concept videos that will NEVER make it in real products.

They are only supposed to look good in 30 second videos --- but if they ever put it actual products, you will absolutely hate it.

[anon(51467)]

I disagree, those videos offer some ideas of things that would be fantastic to use. Like flicking an image from my bb to yours would be way cool. How often do you take a pic then have to jump through hoops to share it. Nah, they have amazing ideas and hopefully will bring some magic to bb.

And just because it looks or sounds incredible, does not mean it cannot happen, there have been men on the moon, cellular phones work and heck, they have these things called airplanes that fly. All of those items were once incredible and thought to not be possible.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[guerllamo7]

I tend to agree with BaconMunch,

If TAT just started building apps they would be awesome but limited. Instead, they built tools for ALL developers to help them make awesome apps. The return should be exponential.
It was interesting listening to Mike L. during DevCon. This guy really seemed to know what developers wanted, needed, and it looked like there were some huge enhancements for developers.
I believe we may have thousands of apps coming to our Playbooks in the next couple of weeks but what was even cooler was the way they showed the roadmap for app developers to support OS7 phones, Playbook and the BBX phones with HTML5 portability.

I'm pretty happy with my Playbook as is. But I am curious and looking forward to 2.0.

[hondateg91]

I didnt know you missed me.

(BTW Those are my initials)

[samab]

I disagree, those videos offer some ideas of things that would be fantastic to use. Like flicking an image from my bb to yours would be way cool. How often do you take a pic then have to jump through hoops to share it. Nah, they have amazing ideas and hopefully will bring some magic to bb.

And just because it looks or sounds incredible, does not mean it cannot happen, there have been men on the moon, cellular phones work and heck, they have these things called airplanes that fly. All of those items were once incredible and thought to not be possible.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

TAT had been contracted by phone manufacturers to design phone UI's for years before they were bought out by RIM.

Guess how many phone manufacturers use those TAT futuristic UI's in actual production models? NONE.

[Just Me]

TAT had been contracted by phone manufacturers to design phone UI's for years before they were bought out by RIM.

Guess how many phone manufacturers use those TAT futuristic UI's in actual production models? NONE.

Could you clarify your point please, because I think you might be saying cascades is useless in the real world.

[samab]

Could you clarify your point please, because I think you might be saying cascades is useless in the real world.

I didn't say that --- cascades is going to be central to RIM's UI development.

In fact, the Playbook's UI was written in flash initially. After RIM bought TAT in Dec 2010, TAT rewrote the whole Playbook UI in native c cascades codes. The Playbook's UI looks EXACTLY THE SAME as before --- but it is completely different in the source code.

http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...ot-bbx-662692/

I said that all those futuristic conceptual videos on youtube are just that --- conceptual videos. It looks good because you only see it in a 30 second video.

There is a valid reason why nobody (including google who contracted TAT to work on Android's original UI) picked those futuristic designs --- they are useless in real life usage. You would find flaws and flaws and flaws in those futuristic UI designs if you spend a couple of days using them.

[Just Me]

Great point, although I'm not sure I agree. The 2.0 UI is basic and being geared toward simplicity, the market set the bar and will demand that that out of the box. The possibility of more advanced UI options will appeal to those who can handle more abstract thought processes. As TAT delivers and executed this properly there will be no going back for those people who understand it. Nothing is flawless but you are about to witness a giant step forward.

[samab]

The "market" has spoken already. NONE of the TAT's customers (aka handset manufacturers) has ever took these futuristic concepts into actual production units.

[Foreverup]

The "market" has spoken already. NONE of the TAT's customers (aka handset manufacturers) has ever took these futuristic concepts into actual production units.

I thought TAT pretty much designed all of the framework for Android 1.0

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[samab]

I thought TAT pretty much designed all of the framework for Android 1.0

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

They did.

My point is that there are big differences between concept videos on youtube vs. actual production model. Google hired TAT to design the Android UI --- the actual production UI doesn't look anything close to those concept videos on youtube.

TAT concept videos on youtube is like the Pontiac Aztek. The Aztek looked good as a concept car in car shows. But when GM actually made the Aztek and tried to sell it, the Pontiac Aztek was universally panned as the ugliest car on the planet.

[Foreverup]

They did.

My point is that there are big differences between concept videos on youtube vs. actual production model. Google hired TAT to design the Android UI --- the actual production UI doesn't look anything close to those concept videos on youtube.

TAT concept videos on youtube is like the Pontiac Aztek. The Aztek looked good as a concept car in car shows. But when GM actually made the Aztek and tried to sell it, the Pontiac Aztek was universally panned as the ugliest car on the planet.

OK but TAT developing the UI framework all someone did was come in and rearrange what they did to make the end user UI. Which is currently what they are doing for QNX. I think you're too easily dismissing what they did for Android because you want to slam them.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[samab]

OK but TAT developing the UI framework all someone did was come in and rearrange what they did to make the end user UI. Which is currently what they are doing for QNX. I think you're too easily dismissing what they did for Android because you want to slam them.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Where have I ever slammed TAT?

All I did was clearly differentiate their production designs from their conceptual videos that they put out on youtube for PR purposes.

I am not slamming TAT --- quite the opposite --- I am actually defending and supporting TAT. People here are basically slamming TAT/RIM for doing nothing since RIM bought TAT, that all they did was the scarpbook app. Quite the opposite, as the link I cited earlier --- TAT rewrote the Playbook UI into native codes. The Playbook UI looked exactly the same as before, but the source code is completely different.

That's the difference between production UI and concept UI. These people who are complaining have a completely incorrect idea of what RIM bought TAT to do --- and then these people get disappointed and slammed RIM/TAT for not remaking the Playbook UI into one of those concept youtube videos. Same mis-understanding on RIM buying Dash Navigation. RIM bought Dash Navigation to make (1) Blackberry Traffic and then (2) open up Blackberry Traffic API's so that you can make super apps with it. Then you see a bunch of people complaining about RIM doing nothing on the Dash acquisition because they are not seeing turn-by-turn navigation app.

[Foreverup]

Where have I ever slammed TAT?

All I did was clearly differentiate their production designs from their conceptual videos that they put out on youtube for PR purposes.

I am not slamming TAT --- quite the opposite --- I am actually defending and supporting TAT. People here are basically slamming TAT/RIM for doing nothing since RIM bought TAT, that all they did was the scarpbook app. Quite the opposite, as the link I cited earlier --- TAT rewrote the Playbook UI into native codes. The Playbook UI looked exactly the same as before, but the source code is completely different.

That's the difference between production UI and concept UI. These people who are complaining have a completely incorrect idea of what RIM bought TAT to do --- and then these people get disappointed and slammed RIM/TAT for not remaking the Playbook UI into one of those concept youtube videos. Same mis-understanding on RIM buying Dash Navigation. RIM bought Dash Navigation to make (1) Blackberry Traffic and then (2) open up Blackberry Traffic API's so that you can make super apps with it. Then you see a bunch of people complaining about RIM doing nothing on the Dash acquisition because they are not seeing turn-by-turn navigation app.

Sorry I miss read your intent.

[Just Me]

Where have I ever slammed TAT?

All I did was clearly differentiate their production designs from their conceptual videos that they put out on youtube for PR purposes.

I am not slamming TAT --- quite the opposite --- I am actually defending and supporting TAT. People here are basically slamming TAT/RIM for doing nothing since RIM bought TAT, that all they did was the scarpbook app. Quite the opposite, as the link I cited earlier --- TAT rewrote the Playbook UI into native codes. The Playbook UI looked exactly the same as before, but the source code is completely different.

That's the difference between production UI and concept UI. These people who are complaining have a completely incorrect idea of what RIM bought TAT to do --- and ithen these people get disappointed and slammed RIM/TAT for not remaking the Playbook UI into one of those concept youtube videos. Same mis-understanding on RIM buying Dash Navigation. RIM bought Dash Navigation to make (1) Blackberry Traffic and then (2) open up Blackberry Traffic API's so that you can make super apps with it. Then you see a bunch of people complaining about RIM doing nothing on the Dash acquisition because they are not seeing turn-by-turn navigation app.

Do you think that the Cascades version of the inbox ect will make its way out into the market?

[lnichols]

Same mis-understanding on RIM buying Dash Navigation. RIM bought Dash Navigation to make (1) Blackberry Traffic and then (2) open up Blackberry Traffic API's so that you can make super apps with it. Then you see a bunch of people complaining about RIM doing nothing on the Dash acquisition because they are not seeing turn-by-turn navigation app.

So do you think that since all of the other smartphone platforms have turn-by-turn Navi with traffic, that RIM buying a turn-by-turn product and reducing it down to Blackberry Traffic (which I find to be pretty useless) and API's was a smart thing to do? Why not leverage that purchase to its fullest and in addition to those apps release turn-by-turn? Seems to me like buying a complete, perfectly working Corvette just for the wheels to put on a beat up Chevette to drive around and keeping the Corvette on blocks in the yard.

[samab]

Do you think that the Cascades version of the inbox ect will make its way out into the market?

Do you mean the relatively "plain" version of inbox with a 3D delete effect? If that's what you meant, then I would say yes.

So do you think that since all of the other smartphone platforms have turn-by-turn Navi with traffic, that RIM buying a turn-by-turn product and reducing it down to Blackberry Traffic (which I find to be pretty useless) and API's was a smart thing to do? Why not leverage that purchase to its fullest and in addition to those apps release turn-by-turn? Seems to me like buying a complete, perfectly working Corvette just for the wheels to put on a beat up Chevette to drive around and keeping the Corvette on blocks in the yard.

Do you mean that Nokia spending $8 BILLION on a map maker equals RIM buying Dash Navigation with 20-30 employees?

Or do you mean that Google sending hundreds or even thousands of people driving around on every single street on the whole planet equals to RIM buying a 20-30 employee company?

You have to compare apples with apples. What these other smartphone platforms spend on their map business acquisition dwarf what RIM spent by a hundred times over.

[lnichols]

Do you mean that Nokia spending $8 BILLION on a map maker equals RIM buying Dash Navigation with 20-30 employees?

Or do you mean that Google sending hundreds or even thousands of people driving around on every single street on the whole planet equals to RIM buying a 20-30 employee company?

You have to compare apples with apples. What these other smartphone platforms spend on their map business acquisition dwarf what RIM spent by a hundred times over.

No I mean they bought a fully functional, turn-by-turn GPS and all they did with it was Blackberry traffic and API's to use in apps, and they still don't have a turn-by-turn GPS for the platform (BBOS or TabletOS), even though the availability of this feature is becoming something people look for in a Smartphone. You don't have to map the world like Google, you buy licensing from a company that does it. They aren't fully utilizing their purchases to the fullest (see the thread on R&D costs too). RIM devices are efficient, the company making them is not!

[samab]

No I mean they bought a fully functional, turn-by-turn GPS and all they did with it was Blackberry traffic and API's to use in apps, and they still don't have a turn-by-turn GPS for the platform (BBOS or TabletOS), even though the availability of this feature is becoming something people look for in a Smartphone. You don't have to map the world like Google, you buy licensing from a company that does it. They aren't fully utilizing their purchases to the fullest (see the thread on R&D costs too). RIM devices are efficient, the company making them is not!

RIM bought a 20-30 employee company and they got all they wanted with those API's.

There is a reason why Nokia had to pay $8 BILLION for the map maker --- it's a duopoly that charges a lot of money for those maps. There is a reason why Google is sending hundreds of people driving around all day long --- they are re-creating those maps so that they don't have to pay the extremely expensive map licensing fees. You are making it sound like RIM can just license those maps without any regard to licensing costs. If RIM actually licenses those maps, you would be screaming at RIM for charging you $x a month for the service.

Even BEFORE RIM bought Dash Navigation --- Dash already discontinued the Dash Express hardware and fired all those employees to slow the cash burning rate. There was nothing useful for RIM to work on --- the source code is years old and there are no employees working on it.

Not utilizing their purchase to the fullest? If anything, the Dash Navigation team was late to deliver Blackberry Traffic --- Blackberry Traffic went gold almost 18 months after RIM bought Dash. Now you want them to split their thin manpower to work on the navigation codes that haven't been touched for a long time.

It is not RIM's problem that you people mis-interpreted what RIM wanted to do with Dash Navigation.

[kbz1960]

RIM bought a 20-30 employee company and they got all they wanted with those API's.

There is a reason why Nokia had to pay $8 BILLION for the map maker --- it's a duopoly that charges a lot of money for those maps. There is a reason why Google is sending hundreds of people driving around all day long --- they are re-creating those maps so that they don't have to pay the extremely expensive map licensing fees. You are making it sound like RIM can just license those maps without any regard to licensing costs. If RIM actually licenses those maps, you would be screaming at RIM for charging you $x a month for the service.

Even BEFORE RIM bought Dash Navigation --- Dash already discontinued the Dash Express hardware and fired all those employees to slow the cash burning rate. There was nothing useful for RIM to work on --- the source code is years old and there are no employees working on it.

Not utilizing their purchase to the fullest? If anything, the Dash Navigation team was late to deliver Blackberry Traffic --- Blackberry Traffic went gold almost 18 months after RIM bought Dash. Now you want them to split their thin manpower to work on the navigation codes that haven't been touched for a long time.

It is not RIM's problem that you people mis-interpreted what RIM wanted to do with Dash Navigation.

Dang Sam you know quite a bit about all of this. Insider?

[samab]

Dang Sam you know quite a bit about all of this. Insider?

Nope --- don't work in the industry at all.

Everything is just a couple of google searches away.

The Dash Express was discontinued in 2008. The Dash layoffs happened in 2008. Dash changed their business model to those API's when they discontinued the Dash Express. RIM bought Dash in 2009. Blackberry Traffic didn't go gold until the end of 2010.

You can make a educated guess on the size of Dash Navigation by news reports about the size of their layoffs.

It's like HP firing 500 webos engineers and people still dreamed of resurrecting webos. Those engineers are long gone. Same thing for those who are still dreaming about RIM buying Dash for turn-by-turn navigation. Those engineers were long gone before RIM even bought the company. The source codes weren't being maintained or even touched in ages.

[CrackedBarry]

Heh, interesting and amusing scenarios there!

I think it's closer to #2 than #1 and the problems mainly being...

A: Culture difference.
TAT is group of designers, artists and coders in their 20ies and 30ies, office full of Macbooks and iPhones, sort of a group of creative problemsolvers and hitmen.

RIM OTOH is chock full of engineers and spreadsheet jockeys. Very conservative small-townish sort of work environment. (which is kind of why they are in the situation they're in. Not the most visionary environment)

I could definitely see the two cultures clashing.
(For a good example of this kind of clash, try to google Microsofts buyout of Danger, Inc.)

B: There is something very rotten in Waterloo.
Remember the 2.0 upgrade for the Playbook which has been delayed by over 6 months and won't come our till at least February?

And now the news about the Thememaker being delayed till THE MIDDLE OF 2012?

I don't know what the problem is, whether RIMs old codebase is completely messed up, or whether all their coders have taken a sabbatical or been poached by Google, but these things should be fairly basic stuff, and there's no way tasks like that should take so long.
My guess would be that they have some major issues with their codebase, that makes it very hard and expensive for TAT to get involved.