10-28-19 08:43 PM
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  1. givechanceachance's Avatar
    source: https://pagetelegram.blogspot.com/20...computing.html

    ---------------------------

    The Fail of Less is More with Computing Design...-commodore64_resize_md.jpg

    Everything is bloated to fit the natural Moore's Law of the accelerated seemingly unlimited resources we have today inverse to the exponential growth from the past. The curve of tech pack in punch has reached a threshold of physical limits.

    A system of 12 years ago is not much more in performance to a system today in terms of resources and processing power -- compared that to a system 12 years ago vs 20 years ago, and you will run into some serious limits with the same software.

    The situation of sluggish computers at, for example support call centers is experienced by everyone: generalized as bloat! No one company that produces software and OS is concerned about the art of writing software---and hardly no one except for embedded systems touches an assembly language any more. It's just not market profitable to spend more money making code tighter than it is to just maximize doing the code quickly at the cost of expending more of the consumer system resources.

    The idea of doing more with less is under-appreciated today when it comes to computing. A task given to a Commodore 64 that is the same task on a modern mid-range computer today; you will find that the computer today will take longer, for example to be ready for the user input, among other qualities that are just not as responsive to an antiquated system design in comparison.

    Some examples of this as of the recent decade is the failure of BlackBerry (BBMo) to maintain a profitable market share. While the iPhone came out with a multi-touch slate and exponential resources compared to say a BlackBerry Curve running BBOS with just 32mb of working memory, the market shifted to the more bloatful, seemingly more delightful iPhone iOS platform. People were sold on faster processor and more memory as well as a decent camera. Yet despite marketing direction, people who relied on the BlackBerry Curves and Bolds to do business where the BBOS had a much more efficient design to do all the same functions of the new iPhone, they were left with what was then marketwise an antiquated device that soon lost support with a costly phone to maintain by BlackBerry Limited.

    What can we learn from this situation?! Marketing appeal to our glut rather than our gut wins the marketshare with the group-think mentalities acting on the appearances of better, more and glitter.

    Smart companies that still use antiquated system designs include hardware stores like Lowe's and some grocers and banks, that while upgrading their hardware they choose to telnet into the same software (such as Genesis) that they've been using since the mid-1980s. That is smart because they know that simple is faster, better and reliable. Much of the I.T. maintenance market today relies on the failures of new software. You don't need an I.T. department to maintain the system software of an antiquated system. You may just need to consult an I.T. firm once in a while to maintain the hardware and hardware upgrades.
    10-21-19 11:46 PM
  2. conite's Avatar
    I think that article is total garbage.

    I can't even isolate what I don't agree with - because it's every word.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt and TgeekB like this.
    10-22-19 12:04 AM
  3. givechanceachance's Avatar
    I think that article is total garbage.

    I can't even isolate what I don't agree with - because it's every word.
    It requires some editing, or my observations are wrong?
    10-22-19 12:08 AM
  4. givechanceachance's Avatar
    It requires some editing, or my observations are wrong?
    Conite, you are always the devils advocate to just about everything I post.

    New is not always better imo.
    10-22-19 12:09 AM
  5. conite's Avatar
    It requires some editing, or my observations are wrong?
    I was being flippant with my wording, as I assumed the writer was some unknown quantity.

    More accurately, I would simply say I do not agree whatsoever with the general thesis.

    Moore's Law is alive and well.
    givechanceachance and rarsen like this.
    10-22-19 12:10 AM
  6. givechanceachance's Avatar
    I was being flippant with my wording, as I assumed the writer was some unknown quantity.

    More accurately, I would simply say I do not agree whatsoever with the general thesis.

    Moore's Law is alive and well. [IMG=934x571]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191022/d6de76e9014f352a1ac5fc49b5eb7b24.jpg[/url]
    Oh, on the Moore's law note, maybe. I was confusing this with the available resources vs responsiveness and efficiency of function.

    Although I did read a while back that the Moore's law will bottleneck if not now, then soon. Only so small you can get something. How close we are to that I'm not too sure.
    10-22-19 12:15 AM
  7. conite's Avatar

    Although I did read a while back that the Moore's law will bottleneck if not now, then soon. Only so small you can get something. How close we are to that I'm not too sure.
    People have been saying that for 20 years.
    givechanceachance likes this.
    10-22-19 12:16 AM
  8. givechanceachance's Avatar
    They've been saying that for 20 years.
    Lol, at some point the transistors be so small that we enter the quantum indeterministic realm; where your emotions start to influence the outputs and stability of our system.
    10-22-19 12:18 AM
  9. conite's Avatar
    Lol, at some point the transistors be so small that we enter the quantum realm; where your emotions start to influence the outputs and stability of your system.
    We will switch technologies to keep up - just as we have switched manufacturing techniques and materials.

    Optical and quantum computing are around the corner.
    10-22-19 12:19 AM
  10. conite's Avatar
    Conite, you are always the devils advocate to just about everything I post.

    New is not always better imo.
    Despite my cavalier response and my general difference of opinion, I respect that you put yourself and your thoughts out there.
    givechanceachance likes this.
    10-22-19 12:23 AM
  11. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I do agree that some of today's bottle neck is the software.... and that's probable because the Commodore 64's software didn't have to worry about the vast number of security issues that today's software has to deal with.

    As the hardware has grown more powerful... so too has the software grown more complex. End result is the user might not always see big benefits in performance.

    To there have been faster developments in some areas where others might have been slower. The bottle neck for a number of years wasn't the Processor, RAM or BUS Speed but the Storage. Today trying to run Windows 10 on an old spinning disk can be very frustrating at time. But you get a new machine with a Solid State drive or better an new NVMe... it flies.

    And in a way Moore's Second Law has become a little more in line with today's best technology.
    givechanceachance likes this.
    10-22-19 10:03 AM
  12. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Some of my routine tasks are editing hi-rez audio, or 4k HDR video. How fast could a C64, or even an Amiga 1000, do those things?

    I promise you too that my Windows PC boots faster and is ready for user input faster than those older machines - unless you consider the basic screen "ready for user input" which is irrelevant to anyone looking to run applications (which is virtually everyone).

    This is like arguing that a Ford Model T is better than modern cars because if you break a wooden spoke on a wheel, you can carve one yourself out of wood that you can get anywhere. In other words, you are focusing on hypothetical minutia that doesn't apply to the vast majority of users or where their needs are today. A Model T on today's roads is a death trap, isn't comfortable, is hard to maintain, hard to start, pollutes more, gets poor gas mileage, etc. That's what matters to buyers.

    You are free to spend the rest of your life with an Amiga and whatever old cell phone you prefer, but the rest of the world wants modern gear with a robust ecosystem of apps and services, and that's not going to change.
    Thud Hardsmack and TgeekB like this.
    10-22-19 11:48 AM
  13. RWIndiana's Avatar
    I can see both sides of this. As a gamer, some games with 4k 60fps or better will run smooth, fast and not heat up the CPU that bad at all. Whereas there are others that run the CPU to death at 12fps even though the graphics are garbage. Yes, an Xbox 360 would not run Halo 5 satisfactorily with all the trimmings (although even that could always be improved to an extent), which is why I, too, want improved hardware.

    Older computers were tested to the limit, in very creative ways sometimes, of what the hardware was capable of. What I'm seeing much of these days is not what the hardware is truly capable of, because this truly impressive hardware is using much of its power propping up a crippled 800lb gorilla of software code. I think just the differences in video games make this very evident.

    So yeah, you all make good points, despite everyone saying the other is wrong. Ha!
    10-22-19 12:37 PM
  14. mrsimon's Avatar
    I think that article is total garbage.

    I can't even isolate what I don't agree with - because it's every word.
    I love this reply!!! Classic!!
    10-22-19 12:39 PM
  15. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    source: https://pagetelegram.blogspot.com/20...computing.html

    ---------------------------

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	commodore64_resize_md.jpg 
Views:	20 
Size:	116.7 KB 
ID:	446541

    Everything is bloated to fit the natural Moore's Law of the accelerated seemingly unlimited resources we have today inverse to the exponential growth from the past. The curve of tech pack in punch has reached a threshold of physical limits.

    A system of 12 years ago is not much more in performance to a system today in terms of resources and processing power -- compared that to a system 12 years ago vs 20 years ago, and you will run into some serious limits with the same software.

    The situation of sluggish computers at, for example support call centers is experienced by everyone: generalized as bloat! No one company that produces software and OS is concerned about the art of writing software---and hardly no one except for embedded systems touches an assembly language any more. It's just not market profitable to spend more money making code tighter than it is to just maximize doing the code quickly at the cost of expending more of the consumer system resources.

    The idea of doing more with less is under-appreciated today when it comes to computing. A task given to a Commodore 64 that is the same task on a modern mid-range computer today; you will find that the computer today will take longer, for example to be ready for the user input, among other qualities that are just not as responsive to an antiquated system design in comparison.

    Some examples of this as of the recent decade is the failure of BlackBerry (BBMo) to maintain a profitable market share. While the iPhone came out with a multi-touch slate and exponential resources compared to say a BlackBerry Curve running BBOS with just 32mb of working memory, the market shifted to the more bloatful, seemingly more delightful iPhone iOS platform. People were sold on faster processor and more memory as well as a decent camera. Yet despite marketing direction, people who relied on the BlackBerry Curves and Bolds to do business where the BBOS had a much more efficient design to do all the same functions of the new iPhone, they were left with what was then marketwise an antiquated device that soon lost support with a costly phone to maintain by BlackBerry Limited.

    What can we learn from this situation?! Marketing appeal to our glut rather than our gut wins the marketshare with the group-think mentalities acting on the appearances of better, more and glitter.

    Smart companies that still use antiquated system designs include hardware stores like Lowe's and some grocers and banks, that while upgrading their hardware they choose to telnet into the same software (such as Genesis) that they've been using since the mid-1980s. That is smart because they know that simple is faster, better and reliable. Much of the I.T. maintenance market today relies on the failures of new software. You don't need an I.T. department to maintain the system software of an antiquated system. You may just need to consult an I.T. firm once in a while to maintain the hardware and hardware upgrades.
    The question is...does the bloat contribute to something of value to either party. Often not (for the direct user at least), sometimes yes. Just look at the exponential growth of the code behind simple html pages for example. The end-user experience is a slowing down of functionality. Something similiar happened when companies transitioned from networked DOS machines to Windows desktop machines....the gui was pretty, the straight input/output productivity plummetted for those heavy pc users. Especially cognicent of this fact were accounting workers.
    10-23-19 12:13 AM
  16. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    The question is...does the bloat contribute to something of value to either party. Often not (for the direct user at least), sometimes yes. Just look at the exponential growth of the code behind simple html pages for example. The end-user experience is a slowing down of functionality. Something similiar happened when companies transitioned from networked DOS machines to Windows desktop machines....the gui was pretty, the straight input/output productivity plummetted for those heavy pc users. Especially cognicent of this fact were accounting workers.
    But how much less training was required for new workers?

    Went from just accounting and payroll having computers to most everyone in the company then having them, and being much more productive.

    Computers first replaced the adding machines (I still have one on my desk), but when it replaced the typewriter and then the fax machine, it became a real productive tool for the masses. That happened because the UI was easy to learn and use.

    But yeah those already proficient in speaking the language.... didn't like a UI that much. I know some Linux users that still prefer using command lines.
    10-23-19 08:44 AM
  17. robnhl's Avatar
    Some examples of this as of the recent decade is the failure of BlackBerry (BBMo) to maintain a profitable market share. While the iPhone came out with a multi-touch slate and exponential resources compared to say a BlackBerry Curve running BBOS with just 32mb of working memory, the market shifted to the more bloatful, seemingly more delightful iPhone iOS platform. People were sold on faster processor and more memory as well as a decent camera.
    I can't say I agree with your post very much but I really disagree with this. No one bought an iPhone for faster processors or more memory or storage. They bought iPhones, etc, because they were in actuality faster, could install more applications and took better photos. Most people don't think about the innards when choosing a device but instead think about what they can do with said device (in addition to status considerations) and how it behaves in their hands. If a BBOS device worked as well as iPhones and Android devices at the time did then things would, perhaps, have turned out differently. But BBOS devices didn't work as well and so things are what they are.

    I'll never understand this sort of thinking that occurs on CB. The smartphone world wasn't fooled into going iPhone and Android. Iphone and Android won because they were better at the things that the evolving smartphone world wanted.
    elfabio80 and john_v like this.
    10-23-19 02:52 PM
  18. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I'll never understand this sort of thinking that occurs on CB. The smartphone world wasn't fooled into going iPhone and Android. Iphone and Android won because they were better at the things that the evolving smartphone world wanted.
    Agree 100%.....
    It was simple... BBOS fell behind and BB10 was just too late. Google was in a panic when Apple launched the iPhone and made changes to adapt. Everyone else that laughed it off (BlackBerry, MS, and Nokia)... aren't laughing anymore.
    10-23-19 04:12 PM
  19. early2bed's Avatar
    I'll never understand this sort of thinking that occurs on CB. The smartphone world wasn't fooled into going iPhone and Android. Iphone and Android won because they were better at the things that the evolving smartphone world wanted.
    It’s interesting watching the iPhone and iPad launches and how they still are mostly about media and games. These are personal devices first and work/business devices second. When you are done with it you can wipe it and give it to your kid and they will be ecstatic. Try that with a PC.
    10-23-19 04:24 PM
  20. glwerry's Avatar
    The situation of sluggish computers at, for example support call centers is experienced by everyone: generalized as bloat! No one company that produces software and OS is concerned about the art of writing software---and hardly no one except for embedded systems touches an assembly language any more. It's just not market profitable to spend more money making code tighter than it is to just maximize doing the code quickly at the cost of expending more of the consumer system resources.
    To be honest, I didn't read the article - I did seize upon this paragraph.
    One of the reasons that few people go down to the level of the Assembler code is also due to the rise of optimizing compilers.

    It's FAR more productive in all but the most extreme cases to develop in a 3rd generation language and run through an optimizing compiler.
    10-23-19 04:24 PM
  21. glwerry's Avatar
    But how much less training was required for new workers?

    Went from just accounting and payroll having computers to most everyone in the company then having them, and being much more productive.

    Computers first replaced the adding machines (I still have one on my desk), but when it replaced the typewriter and then the fax machine, it became a real productive tool for the masses. That happened because the UI was easy to learn and use.

    But yeah those already proficient in speaking the language.... didn't like a UI that much. I know some Linux users that still prefer using command lines.
    I have a real life example.
    I have been in computing for 40 years now.
    My first home system was a used computer with an amber screen and dual floppy drives; we thought dial up on-line discussion boards were REALLY hot stuff - so pre-Internet days.

    So, over the years I have set up a LOT of modems / networks / connections to the outside world from MS-DOS through Windows 3.1, 7, 8, 10 and even a Linux or two.

    I can tell you that setting up a wireless network under the "bloat" of Windows 10 is EXPONENTIALLY BETTER than it was under MS-DOS or even Windows 3.1.
    So, even though Win 10 is "bloated" compared to MS-DOS there's a LARGE amount of added functionality that we have started to take for granted.
    10-23-19 04:31 PM
  22. glwerry's Avatar
    The idea of doing more with less is under-appreciated today when it comes to computing. A task given to a Commodore 64 that is the same task on a modern mid-range computer today; you will find that the computer today will take longer, for example to be ready for the user input, among other qualities that are just not as responsive to an antiquated system design in comparison.
    This is ignoring some really fundamental shifts, although there is some truth to it.
    I have been programming at the same corporation for 38 years now, starting on a Burroughs B3700.

    We still have a large (10k lines) COBOL program that I compiled on that Burroughs (now converted to running on HP-UX on a modern server).
    On that Burroughs this program would take an hour or more to compile - after I had gone into the computer room to check and make sure that there was enough memory available to RUN the compiler (I kid you not). If there was an error then I had to PRINT the entire program listing!
    Total compile time could easily be 1.5 HOURS.

    I just compiled it on our current machine: 5.17 SECONDS. If there is an error it just prints on my screen and my total time to find/diagnose a compile error is likely 15 SECONDS.

    I WILL say that for keyboard (input) - intensive tasks, the modern GUI / mouse-driven input screens are dramatically slower than the old screens where you can tab around.
    Pretty is NOT faster.
    i_plod_an_dr_void likes this.
    10-23-19 04:40 PM
  23. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Some of my routine tasks......
    This is like arguing that a Ford Model T is better than modern cars because if you break a wooden spoke on a wheel, you can carve one yourself out of wood that you can get anywhere. In other words, you are focusing on hypothetical minutia that doesn't apply to the vast majority of users or where their needs are today. A Model T on today's roads is a death trap, isn't comfortable, is hard to maintain, hard to start, pollutes more, gets poor gas mileage, etc. That's what matters to buyers.
    But in rush hour....the speed diffferences melt away....and hand cranking while requiring some elbow grease, isn't really all that much of a bother as it is a sliver of the drive time.
    The idea of going to the lumber supplier to fix the car rather than the sometime shady mechanic I have to admit has a certain appeal.... I'm guessing the wooden tire has a smaller carbon footprint than the rubber and steel one too! lol....oh....and the top speed of the model-T hardly makes it a death trap....no more than a bicycle/motorbike, pedestrian..
    10-23-19 09:36 PM
  24. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    It’s interesting watching the iPhone and iPad launches and how they still are mostly about media and games. These are personal devices first and work/business devices second. When you are done with it you can wipe it and give it to your kid and they will be ecstatic. Try that with a PC.
    That’s so funny that I missed the announcement. I’m such a dummy. Here I’ve been using my XR as business device all day long. I’ve had it for a year and have yet to use it for social media or games. I was going to use an old BBAndroid device or an old iPad for that but you’re saying I could use my iPhone when I’m not using it for clients? Thanks for the info...
    10-23-19 11:08 PM
  25. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    This is ignoring some really fundamental shifts, although there is some truth to it.
    I have been programming at the same corporation for 38 years now, starting on a Burroughs B3700.

    We still have a large (10k lines) COBOL program that I compiled on that Burroughs (now converted to running on HP-UX on a modern server).
    On that Burroughs this program would take an hour or more to compile - after I had gone into the computer room to check and make sure that there was enough memory available to RUN the compiler (I kid you not). If there was an error then I had to PRINT the entire program listing!
    Total compile time could easily be 1.5 HOURS.

    I just compiled it on our current machine: 5.17 SECONDS. If there is an error it just prints on my screen and my total time to find/diagnose a compile error is likely 15 SECONDS.

    I WILL say that for keyboard (input) - intensive tasks, the modern GUI / mouse-driven input screens are dramatically slower than the old screens where you can tab around.
    Pretty is NOT faster.
    Yes but think of how accomplished you felt after 90 minutes compared to 30 seconds. ;-)
    10-23-19 11:12 PM
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