02-16-12 02:34 PM
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  1. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    I read Kevin's discussion about US relations regarding Blackberrry/RIM. There were a lot of good points brought to the forefront... but I can't help but recognize there was a significant point left out.

    Let me preface my opinions by stating that while I am a staunch supporter of BB regaining their prosperous position, despite being disheartened over time, to this day I am still someone who is looking forward to the day BB gets back on top.

    One of the questions posed in the article was why did Palm receive favorable treatment in the media while RIM being in a similar position received different treatment. Well I'd like to point out a couple of key factors that were left out that weren't brought up...

    When Palm was in a similar situation, there was a difference...

    When Palm started to suffer, they had actually decided to eat crow, acknowledged their gaffs, and proceeded to take action to improve their product based on consumer demands. Had Palm had another year's time in the market to recover (and funding), they very well might have pulled it off (maybe, maybe not). WebOS is still regarded by most people in the industry as haning been a superior product that never got the recognition or success it deserved. There were many many people bucking for Palm to succeed simply based on their drive to improve based on consumer desires. Unfortunately, it didn't work out.

    RIM, in a similar situation, decided to take a different route. Deciding for themselves what the market desires, and stuck to their guns even when the market decided otherwise. The key difference being... when consumers desired change, RIM continued to follow the path of "we know better" instead of adapting.

    The key difference being... Palm was humble, whereas RIM has been arrogant. The US population has no issues with arrogance, if you can back it up.

    Despite what many people outside the US might think, the US population isn't (and haven't) been working collectively to knock down RIM. There's no agenda in the US to knock down RIM. If anything, there's a collective desire in the US to root for the underdog.

    If there's any one way to appeal to the US population, it's not "Communication". It's results. You can communicate and market all you wish. If your product isn't what the average US citizen is looking for, you're not going to go far with them. If you've had a product that was once King-of-the-Hill, but has fallen, you need to recognize. Get back on top based on actions, not declarations.
    Last edited by rmjones101; 02-15-12 at 07:54 PM.
    02-15-12 06:00 PM
  2. erodenero's Avatar
    "Get back on top based on actions, not declarations."
    couldn't have said it better.
    02-15-12 06:06 PM
  3. CrackBerry Kevin's Avatar
    First!!!!!!!!!!!!
    02-15-12 06:06 PM
  4. pmccartney's Avatar
    First!!!!!!!!!!!!
    no youre not but I bet you have the power to change that.
    CDM76 and GingerSnapsBack like this.
    02-15-12 06:35 PM
  5. byul's Avatar
    that's a good read OP, hhaha i bet kevin is friendly and having the power to change it to second lol.
    assume he just left out right after it was posted.
    02-15-12 06:47 PM
  6. CrackBerry Kevin's Avatar
    OK, back for more.. was going to edit my FIRSTT!!! post but since it apparently turned out to be slow I'll just do another post.

    No disagreement with this thread.... I wouldn't say it was an omission but something I chose not to tackle yet. Look, that editorial could easily be another 10,000 words, there's so much to talk about on this subject.

    And ORIGINALLY... my editorial the other week about Research In Motion needing to change their name to BlackBerry, and the RIM needs a BlackBerry USA division we're part of the same article. Then I realized it was getting way too long, so broke it apart into a couple pieces. You can't get everything into one story.

    What I was saying in the article though is exactly what the OP is outlining though... RIM's attitude was like that even when things we're going GREAT for them... back in 2006, 2007, when they were at the top of the game and *should* have been getting the warm and fuzzies from people they weren't, never mind in 2008,2009,2010 when they should have been changing but kept plodding down the same path.

    Anyways. Good post.

    What should my next editorial be on?
    02-15-12 06:51 PM
  7. erodenero's Avatar

    What should my next editorial be on?

    The search for a CMO

    btw sorry about jacking your first post fame , guess i was a little quicker on the submit reply button.
    02-15-12 06:55 PM
  8. anon(757282)'s Avatar
    Despite what many people outside the US might think, the US population isn't (and haven't) been working collectively to knock down RIM. There's no agenda in the US to knock down RIM. If anything, there's a collective desire in the US to root for the underdog.
    The record of media coverage tells a completely different story. The media outlets have taken every opportunity to twist any information about RIM into a negative story. I scan the stories and there is a chorus of parrots reporting every negative opinion and factoid. Positive changes in products and management are either ignored, or thinly reported and .quickly followed with the cloudy outlook and the inevitable reference to "lost 75% of its stock price since..." It's apparent to me there is very obvious agenda to drive RIM into the ground by the media. And the public and potential customers form their opinions based on what they hear and read.

    I am concerned that initial coverage by these outlets, the vast majority out there, to be "nice, but too little and too late" for whatever RIM releases, regardless of the real features. But I also think that others will see through this despite the bias, and they will have to acknowledge the value these new products bring to the market.
    02-15-12 07:06 PM
  9. anon(757282)'s Avatar
    What should my next editorial be on?
    Your editorial, written as two years from now, describing how BlackBerry (formerly RIM) accomplished their turnaround and what to expect in 2015.
    erodenero and sashlon like this.
    02-15-12 07:17 PM
  10. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    The record of media coverage tells a completely different story. The media outlets have taken every opportunity to twist any information about RIM into a negative story. I scan the stories and there is a chorus of parrots reporting every negative opinion and factoid. Positive changes in products and management are either ignored, or thinly reported and .quickly followed with the cloudy outlook and the inevitable reference to "lost 75% of its stock price since..." It's apparent to me there is very obvious agenda to drive RIM into the ground by the media. And the public and potential customers form their opinions based on what they hear and read.

    I am concerned that initial coverage by these outlets, the vast majority out there, to be "nice, but too little and too late" for whatever RIM releases, regardless of the real features. But I also think that others will see through this despite the bias, and they will have to acknowledge the value these new products bring to the market.
    I won't deny there's a substantial desire for the media to pounce on RIM whenever the opportunity should present itself. That happens to any underdog in the media worldwide. And I won't debate the merits of whether it is/was/has-been founded or not.

    But can you present definitive US media bias as being more extreme compared to the rest of the media around the world?

    I'm fully aware that RIM/BB is suffering in the US, as has been evidenced by consumer purchase decisions. But as it pertains to the media as a whole, the US is hardly the only media outlet in the world that has been bagging on RIM. I will concede that the US has a very prolific amount of popular media sources being followed around the world, and that alone makes the US predominately visible within the online media. But that doesn't exclude or overshadow other sources of media around the world from displaying a similar attitude.
    Last edited by rmjones101; 02-15-12 at 07:48 PM.
    02-15-12 07:44 PM
  11. JR A's Avatar
    The problem isn't going to be solved with more bureaucracy.

    They need to work more efficiently and effectively with what they already have.

    And quite honestly, they (BlackBerry) needs to deliver something people actually want (and not just via concept videos from TAT).
    02-15-12 08:18 PM
  12. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I won't deny there's a substantial desire for the media to pounce on RIM whenever the opportunity should present itself. That happens to any underdog in the media worldwide. And I won't debate the merits of whether it is/was/has-been founded or not.

    But can you present definitive US media bias as being more extreme compared to the rest of the media around the world?

    I'm fully aware that RIM/BB is suffering in the US, as has been evidenced by consumer purchase decisions. But as it pertains to the media as a whole, the US is hardly the only media outlet in the world that has been bagging on RIM. I will concede that the US has a very prolific amount of popular media sources being followed around the world, and that alone makes the US predominately visible within the online media.
    I disagree it happens to any underdog world wide

    When Apple was an Underdog they got pretty fair coverage between positive and negative news, as did Palm, and gateway,
    Apple is still treated like the underdog in the media yet they are far from that anymore
    sleepngbear likes this.
    02-15-12 08:36 PM
  13. sleepngbear's Avatar
    I disagree it happens to any underdog world wide

    When Apple was an Underdog they got pretty fair coverage between positive and negative news, as did Palm, and gateway,
    Apple is still treated like the underdog in the media yet they are far from that anymore
    This is too true. The media-consuming public loves drama, whether it's a fairy tale or dirty laundry. It sells papers and generates web page hits. It doesn't help that for the past few years RIM has practically drawn a bullseye on its own backside with some pretty visible missteps, which made management's steadfast clinging to their original vision appear as so much arrogance, making the target all the more inviting. I personally despise how the media over-dramatizes virtually everything, and I don't care for how RIM and others are treated when the media goes off on another feeding frenzy. But, the media is not responsible for RIM's fall from grace, only for throwing more fuel on the fire.
    02-15-12 09:17 PM
  14. drummer_god's Avatar

    When Palm was in a similar situation, there was a difference...

    When Palm started to suffer, they had actually decided to eat crow, acknowledged their gaffs.
    where did that get them?
    why follow the paths of failure?

    when the iphone was dropping calls, apple didn't admit it was a bad product. they blamed the user.
    when toyota started messing up, they blamed the driver.

    nothing undermines consumer confidence more than admitting you make lousy products.
    admit your faults in the boardrooms and then correct them.
    Last edited by drummer_god; 02-15-12 at 10:16 PM.
    02-15-12 09:48 PM
  15. lnichols's Avatar
    You think any if the negativity could be that a lot of theses reporters are issued Blackberry's for their jobs, and are frustrated by how far they are behind the competition? Possibly want to see the devices they are using either improve or wish for the companies demise so they can be issued something else? RIM has to deliver products that do everything their Blackberry can, plus do everything that Android and ios can. Until they do that they won't get any love from the media or the US and a President of US operations or all the best marketing in the world won't help without a great product to back it up.

    Oh and Kevin I think Northern VA off the Dulles Toll Road, the Internet Capitol of the world, would be a better place for a an HQ. Just as good of tech talent as Silicon Valley (maybe better), major International Airport (IAD), close to DC for legislative matters and Federal sales, and much more business friendly than Cali. Audi, VW, Airbus, etc all have their US HQ here. Verizon and Sprint also have major presence here too.
    02-16-12 06:45 AM
  16. xandermac's Avatar
    A lot of the difference between the treatment of Palm & RIM boils down the way Palm reacted to the media. Who remembers Engadget's "open letter to Palm"? Palm reached out to Engadget immediately, it created that "bond" to which Kevin alluded. Thorsten, by reaching out to Kevin personally, may have set that same wheel in motion and he will, hopefully, expand on it going forward with many media outlets. Perception is important to the consumer. If we believe a company cares about us that's half the battle. All the marketing in the world won't outweigh a little good faith. Mike & Jim didn't engage their customers, or Crackberry for that matter. The most we got was a video apologizing for an outage. That doesn't inspire anyone.

    RIM can be a major player if they focus on the consumer. We'll tolerate a few missing features if we think the company cares about us, if they engage us rather than ignore us. I believe the same holds true for the media.
    Blacklatino likes this.
    02-16-12 07:39 AM
  17. lnichols's Avatar
    Mike & Jim didn't engage their customers, or Crackberry for that matter. The most we got was a video apologizing for an outage. That doesn't inspire anyone.

    RIM can be a major player if they focus on the consumer. We'll tolerate a few missing features if we think the company cares about us, if they engage us rather than ignore us. I believe the same holds true for the media.
    Exactly. Mike and Jim were focused purely on the CIO and delivering what the CIO wanted. They publicly stated this many times. They completely ignored the end user's requirments. They do the same things with being totally for what the carrier wants over the consumer too. They probably never thought that BYOD would come into play. Now that BYOD is being done the consumer is driving what the corporation supports. So RIM's sucking up to the CIO's has now backfired because the CIO's are being forced to support other devices by CEO's and the users in the companies. Same thing is happening in the Federal space with people at Cabinet level positions demanding that the organization figure out ways to allow the iPad and iPhone to be used instead of Blackberry. And on the carrier side they have went from carriers pushing their devices and not having to do any marketing because the carriers took care of it to carriers actually discouraging the sales of Blackberry devices and they have no clue how to market to the end use.
    VerryBestr likes this.
    02-16-12 09:14 AM
  18. kbz1960's Avatar
    Off topic here. Are the iphones and androids as locked down as the bb's are on BES? Can't download or install this or that? If so they aren't going to like their android or iphone either.
    02-16-12 09:58 AM
  19. grahamf's Avatar
    I think a key point is that with Palm, PalmOS was severely outdated and so Palm recognized that they had top essentially scrap it and start over.

    With RIM, there were/are still some major aspects of the BBOS that are still good (such as BBM), so RIM chose to simply overhaul the OS. I'll admit that it seems that RIM didn't realize at first how much of an overhaul is needed, but BB7 is a drastic improvement over BB5 while maintaining tried and true features of BB4.7. Yes they are starting from scratch with BB10, nut it will be a while until it has all of the nice little feature of BB7.


    And as for RIM starting a USA division, I'm, not really sure how well this would work. Doing so will make them more susceptible to American wiretapping laws and other laws that will require them to hand over customer data. RIM is trying to expand to international markets, and being in Canada they can be more popular in countries that are suspicious of American products that call home. With the way BIS/BES works, customers such as the Chinese government would be nervous about the possibility of the US government pressuring RIM USA to open a backdoor into BIS service.
    02-16-12 10:10 AM
  20. lnichols's Avatar
    And as for RIM starting a USA division, I'm, not really sure how well this would work. Doing so will make them more susceptible to American wiretapping laws and other laws that will require them to hand over customer data. RIM is trying to expand to international markets, and being in Canada they can be more popular in countries that are suspicious of American products that call home. With the way BIS/BES works, customers such as the Chinese government would be nervous about the possibility of the US government pressuring RIM USA to open a backdoor into BIS service.
    Since the BIS is controlled by carrier based in the US, they can already get this info with a warrant. Why do you think RIM is having to setup servers in the countries they do business in? So that those countries can monitor if needed.
    02-16-12 10:28 AM
  21. PineappleUnderTheSea's Avatar
    The media outlets have taken every opportunity to twist any information about RIM into a negative story.
    It's not just RIM, it'll happen with any company. They even do it with Apple, example: when the 4S first came out everyone-and I mean everyone-predicted doom and gloom for Apple since the phone wasn't different enough than the previous incarnation.

    But the 4S was able to rise above that because Siri was an exciting feature (for the masses in general), the commercials were quirky, and the phone performed better than the last iteration. The issue is that once the media does predict doom and gloom for RIM, it's usually true; the phones do not generally excite the masses, there are no killer features that make you want to go and buy one, etc etc. so the cycle keeps repeating itself.

    Maybe when BB10 comes out it'll be a different story, if the OS will be outstanding and differentiate itself.
    02-16-12 10:36 AM
  22. grahamf's Avatar
    Since the BIS is controlled by carrier based in the US, they can already get this info with a warrant. Why do you think RIM is having to setup servers in the countries they do business in? So that those countries can monitor if needed.
    The carrier can monitor BIS to an extent, but they have minimal monitoring capability of BES.

    The US government has tried (and failed) to force RIM to chop away most of the security of BIS/BES, which they could easily force (and succeed) RIM to do if it was in the USA.
    02-16-12 11:33 AM
  23. lnichols's Avatar
    The carrier can monitor BIS to an extent, but they have minimal monitoring capability of BES.

    The US government has tried (and failed) to force RIM to chop away most of the security of BIS/BES, which they could easily force (and succeed) RIM to do if it was in the USA.
    Not even RIM can get the information from phone to BES traffic, at least that is my understanding. The BES administrator loads and maintains their security certificate. RIM can't get that because the encryption is from the phone to the BES. US government can get that info with a warrant, but they have to go to the BES owner. I run my own IPSEC VPN's that go across the Internet and through tons of devices, and no one can get that info without the key and/or valid security certificate. Pretty sure the feds wouldn't be using BES if a Canadian based company could see what's going on!
    02-16-12 12:05 PM
  24. grahamf's Avatar
    Not even RIM can get the information from phone to BES traffic, at least that is my understanding. The BES administrator loads and maintains their security certificate. RIM can't get that because the encryption is from the phone to the BES. US government can get that info with a warrant, but they have to go to the BES owner. I run my own IPSEC VPN's that go across the Internet and through tons of devices, and no one can get that info without the key and/or valid security certificate. Pretty sure the feds wouldn't be using BES if a Canadian based company could see what's going on!
    My point is that the US government could force RIM to discontinue BES service or change BES so that the certificates have a backdoor that the Feds (and anyone that knows how to hack it) can access.
    02-16-12 12:18 PM
  25. anon1727506's Avatar
    When it comes down to it..

    It's not really the US Media fault that RIM finds itself being beat down daily.

    It's not the US Investors fault that RIM's stock is at less than what the company's "book value".

    It's not the US consumers fault that they are choosing other devices.

    It's not a US bias against a non US Company.


    RIM took too long to recognize where the smartphone market was headed. They ignored the release of the iPhone as a "toy", and Google with their free OS was probable originally a joke to Mike and Jim. Even after a couple of years they still took too long to adjust to a market that was quickly changing and making the BB almost obsolete.
    02-16-12 01:14 PM
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