[anon(9471936)]

I pay for apps I use a lot; to support the developer so that they are not tempted to sell my data, though this quite naive I suppose. And I would pay 2$ (or even more) if they assure me not to mine my data. Unfortunately, this seems for businesses not a sexy selling point. It appears to me that people generally care about privacy but when it comes to purchasing a device, they go for the cheapest. And the developers of the cheap devices and apps have to make their income somehow.

I am looking for a mobile device I can trust. Finally, it is all about trust. It is difficult to be sure the producers and service providers won't use my data for whatsoever. And don't read much about BB securing my privacy. Some assume they do protect it. However, I have not seen any offical statement of BB that they do for the general consumer (if I am not on their BES). So my question is, does BBOS protect my privacy or does it call back home to tell BB servers what I do and where I am? Does BBOS allow apps to "call" home? Any idea?

[anon(9471936)]

For consumers BlackBerry needs to advertise privacy not security.

I agree. I wonder why they don't do this. Maybe because they focus on companies to sell their BES.

Blackphone is marketing their phone for general privacy and security aware people, though they also focus more on corporates. While BB only focusses on companies. I don't think this is smart, but I might be mistaken. I still hope that there are privacy conscious people out there, haha.

[Jerry A]

I am looking for a mobile device I can trust. Finally, it is all about trust. It is difficult to be sure the producers and service providers won't use my data for whatsoever. And don't read much about BB securing my privacy. Some assume they do protect it. However, I have not seen any offical statement of BB that they do for the general consumer (if I am not on their BES). So my question is, does BBOS protect my privacy or does it call back home to tell BB servers what I do and where I am? Does BBOS allow apps to "call" home? Any idea?

If your definition of trust is not having any type of telemetry data sent out then you only have 1 choice:

Stop using mobile phones and the internet.

Every phone vendor collects all types of information. They use it to improve their products and their bottom line.

Don't bother with the internet - cookies, referrer headers, transit network injections, etc. all work against your browsing anonymously.

Also, anyone who mentions "partner networks" in their TOS is reselling your info (credit cards, loyalty cards, etc.). May as well stop using those.

[Troy Tiscareno]

I agree. I wonder why they don't do this. Maybe because they focus on companies to sell their BES.

Blackphone is marketing their phone for general privacy and security aware people, though they also focus more on corporates. While BB only focusses on companies. I don't think this is smart, but I might be mistaken. I still hope that there are privacy conscious people out there, haha.

You do realize that BES specifically and intentionally REMOVES your privacy by giving access to everything you do (except perhaps to the "personal" side of the phone in the event that Balance is enabled) to the corporation/enterprise that issued the phone, right? I suspect most users have no idea just how little privacy they actually have on a corporate device - everything can be tracked and logged.

And if you read BB's User Agreements and TOSs, they read virtually the same as Google's, Apple's, and Microsoft's - you agree to let BB have your data, track you, use or sell your anonymized info, etc. It's all there in black and white.

So, IMO, the reason they don't advertise privacy is because they're no better (or worse) than any other major mobile OS, and so there's no advantage to advertise.

[anon(9471936)]

So you imply that BB is selling users privacy data to third parties, right?

If that is the case, is it as bad as Google? For example: I have CyanogenMod Android phone with apps from F-Droid (which are supposed to be open source and less data mining than other apps). My data usage is mostly only browser while the Android phone of my spouse always shows high usage of Android system (while mine doesn't). It appears to me that CM is not much data mining while Google Android does a lot.

And maybe to define trust a bit more precise: it's more a device which is less spying/ data mining, where I have better control, and a company which identity is around securing privacy of the user. That would be, for instance, Blackphone with Cilent Circle. Is BB similar? I read somewhere that apparently, BB is really blocking off the network if I tick the setting while on Android, GAPS is still communicating home. On the other hand, I have read that BBM is collecting data.

So finally,

[anon(9471936)]

Thank you Troy for that clear answer. It is not what I was hoping for, but it helps with making a decision what OS we (family) will choose in the near future (end of this year).
Cheers

[Sam_93]

Now I know why blackberry makes overpriced heating bars

[Troy Tiscareno]

So you imply that BB is selling users privacy data to third parties, right?

No, I'm stating that BB says themselves that they can, and they force you to agree to let them - just like all the other manufacturers do. And if you think, for example, that BB's "virtual assistant" isn't sending your info to other places for processing, you're deceiving yourself.

If that is the case, is it as bad as Google?

This implies that data mining is bad in the first place. Just because it's possible to use something for evil doesn't mean you can't also use it for good. I can kill someone with a butterknife, but I can also spread butter on my toast with it. Should we ban butterknives because they can be used as a weapon?

Obviously Google is an advertising company, and they visibly use the data they collect from users to make their advertising more efficient - everyone knows that - but Google isn't "giving away your data" to advertisers, but rather, the other way around: Google is giving YOU advertiser's data that you're likely to be interested in.

Apple, Microsoft, and BB do the same thing. Do you not realize that BB is using your data for ads in BBM, in just the same way that Google uses that data for all kinds of advertising?

The thing is: the advertisers never get your data - that's simply not how it works. Instead, advertisers can pay to put their ad in front of people in a specific geographic area who search for the words "black shoes" or "concert tickets" or "flight to Chicago". The advertisers don't see that you are Jimmy Smith at 1234 Main Street and that you are 34 years old, married, with 3 kids and make $52,000 a year. Only Google knows that, and their entire advertising model depends on them never letting advertisers have access to that raw information - because not only would they lose massive trust from their users, but it would also allow advertisers to bypass Google! Again, BB, MS, and Apple are in the exact same position, for the same reason. Google is just more visible because advertising is a much bigger part of Google's business. The methodology is the same for all manufacturers, though.

[Bbnivende]

No, but does seem to me that I get less following me around by advertisers on my BlackBerry than on my Mac book and much much less than in my Nexus 7. I do not get all those annoying notifications etc from Facebook et al either. I hardly ever use my Nexus as a result.

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[sentimentGX4]

Would you be willing to pay $1.99 for an app that normally cost $.99, If the slightly higher price of the app boast the additional feature of a guaranteed (with the risk of penalty) warranty against any data mining, capturing or copying any unneeded information on your device( for reason other than law enforcement purposes).

Few consumers honestly would pay more to protect their privacy. Ignoring the popularity of Android, "freemium"/in app purchases would not be the most popular app sales model if this were the case. Consumers simply don't want to pay anything for software.

I'm not even altogether convinced most privacy advocates on Crackberry are genuinely concerned with privacy (as well as security) or whether they are latching on a vague, meaningless, ambiguous term to bash the other platforms.

You get a clear sense that many individuals don't know what they are talking about and don't really care when they assert Blackberry has better privacy than say Apple and has never bothered digging into the specifics of the ToS.

Privacy is simply something difficult for consumers to take seriously especially considering that even if there were a party claiming to protect your privacy it could just as well be a scam and it would be difficult to prove otherwise.

The best approach to privacy is simply not to give up data you wouldn't want shared.

[z10Jobe]

So all this BlackBerry is no more secure talk clearly explains why Germany's Chancellor no longer uses her Nokia and switched to BlackBerry and that why the German government no longer allows iPads in sensitive meetings

Same for Aviva insurance in England switching to BlackBerry after their iPhones got hacked.

Must be BlackBerry's superior ecosystem then.

And of course, Google would never track your actions. The fact that ads for products that you just looked at start appearing after one uses Google Is merely coincidence.

It is threads like this that tend to draw out the sheep and Droid fans out of the woodwork speaking like they are computer coding experts to justify why they continue to visit a site and negatively comment on products that they have no interest in.



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[Jerry A]

So all this BlackBerry is no more secure talk clearly explains why Germany's Chancellor no longer uses her Nokia and switched to BlackBerry and that why the German government no longer allows iPads in sensitive meetings

Same for Aviva insurance in England switching to BlackBerry after their iPhones got hacked.

Must be BlackBerry's superior ecosystem then.

And of course, Google would never track your actions. The fact that ads for products that you just looked at start appearing after one uses Google Is merely coincidence.

It is threads like this that tend to draw out the sheep and Droid fans out of the woodwork speaking like they are computer coding experts to justify why they continue to visit a site and negatively comment on products that they have no interest in.



Posted via CB10

For some points of clarification, the Germany government has made a lot of moves in the name of locking down security. They moved away from the Nokia's and banned the iPads mostly in response to them not working with their approved MDM solutions (NSA sorta tipped their hand on this one). Then again, this is the same government that just a few years earlier banned the use of BlackBerry devices for employees because "it wasn't secure enough".

In the case of Aviva, the issue wasn't the iPhone, it was the MDM (or Aviva's implementation of the solution) that led to the move. Aviva only got rid of MobileIron. In fact, they moved to
BES10 to manage their existing fleet of iPhones.

If anything, these examples show that Chen's on the right path for focusing on enterprise security (MDM & related services) instead of devices - but that's a discussion for multiple other threads.

Google (and Apple, Bing, Yahoo, BBM, Facebook, etc. etc, etc) are very upfront - they are tracking your usage profile and not just from your phone, but also from your web browsing and use of affinity services and sites. It's how they deliver you better (ie more personalized) ads. People choose to ignore the fine-print and then are surprised after the fact at what they've agreed to.

To counter your last point, sadly it's discussions like this that draw out the folks who don't want to deal with technical facts and would rather hurl insults. Which is sad, because up until that point this was an informative discussion and exchange of ideas.

[TgeekB]

For some points of clarification, the Germany government has made a lot of moves in the name of locking down security. They moved away from the Nokia's and banned the iPads mostly in response to them not working with their approved MDM solutions (NSA sorta tipped their hand on this one). Then again, this is the same government that just a few years earlier banned the use of BlackBerry devices for employees because "it wasn't secure enough".

In the case of Aviva, the issue wasn't the iPhone, it was the MDM (or Aviva's implementation of the solution) that led to the move. Aviva only got rid of MobileIron. In fact, they moved to
BES10 to manage their existing fleet of iPhones.

If anything, these examples show that Chen's on the right path for focusing on enterprise security (MDM & related services) instead of devices - but that's a discussion for multiple other threads.

Google (and Apple, Bing, Yahoo, BBM, Facebook, etc. etc, etc) are very upfront - they are tracking your usage profile and not just from your phone, but also from your web browsing and use of affinity services and sites. It's how they deliver you better (ie more personalized) ads. People choose to ignore the fine-print and then are surprised after the fact at what they've agreed to.

To counter your last point, sadly it's discussions like this that draw out the folks who don't want to deal with technical facts and would rather hurl insults. Which is sad, because up until that point this was an informative discussion and exchange of ideas.

Well said. Thanks for adding facts to the argument/discussion.

Z30something

[z10Jobe]

For some points of clarification, the Germany government has made a lot of moves in the name of locking down security. They moved away from the Nokia's and banned the iPads mostly in response to them not working with their approved MDM solutions (NSA sorta tipped their hand on this one). Then again, this is the same government that just a few years earlier banned the use of BlackBerry devices for employees because "it wasn't secure enough".

In the case of Aviva, the issue wasn't the iPhone, it was the MDM (or Aviva's implementation of the solution) that led to the move. Aviva only got rid of MobileIron. In fact, they moved to
BES10 to manage their existing fleet of iPhones.

If anything, these examples show that Chen's on the right path for focusing on enterprise security (MDM & related services) instead of devices - but that's a discussion for multiple other threads.

Google (and Apple, Bing, Yahoo, BBM, Facebook, etc. etc, etc) are very upfront - they are tracking your usage profile and not just from your phone, but also from your web browsing and use of affinity services and sites. It's how they deliver you better (ie more personalized) ads. People choose to ignore the fine-print and then are surprised after the fact at what they've agreed to.

To counter your last point, sadly it's discussions like this that draw out the folks who don't want to deal with technical facts and would rather hurl insults. Which is sad, because up until that point this was an informative discussion and exchange of ideas.

Are you really that sad or did you just want to hurl a thinly veiled passive aggressive comment of your own?

Sorry my differing opinion led to ruin your informative discussion and idea exchange with your like minded brethren.



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[Jerry A]

Are you really that sad or did you just want to hurl a thinly veiled passive aggressive comment of your own?

Sorry my differing opinion led to ruin your informative discussion and idea exchange with your like minded brethren.



Posted via CB10

Not sad and I didn't mean to be passive-aggressive.

You posted incorrect or incomplete information (what you call "opinion"). I'm just providing clarifying information in order to keep a good discussion on-track.

[z10Jobe]

Not sad and I didn't mean to be passive-aggressive.

You posted incorrect or incomplete information (what you call "opinion"). I'm just providing clarifying information in order to keep a good discussion on-track.

Well you mentioned sad twice which seemed out of scale with what we are talking about so I thought that I should get clarification.

The point of the paragraph that you were seemingly sad about and what I was replying to your reply is where I mentioned repeated posters on here with no interest in BlackBerry continuing to provide their comments.

As far as the security part goes, consumers, myself included, don't really care. But for areas that really matter, BlackBerry devices, even with BES, are the most secure if you believe what John Chen is saying. Where I work, BES is used but only Apple and BlackBerry devices are allowed. Android not secure enough. In the really critical area (leaders of the G7 for example) BlackBerry is dominant. The tone of this thread, however, was that all phones have equal security, despite apparent evidence to the contrary.




Posted via CB10

[Troy Tiscareno]

Germany is not just using BB10, with BES, but going even further with SecuSmart. No doubt the three together are a winning combo if you are the leader of a country, but none of that matters for consumers - they aren't on BES, to say nothing of SecuSmart, and a regular BB10 device not on BES isn't more secure or private than any other OS to any significant degree.

Your argument is like saying "what do you mean, a Chevy Impala isn't a high-performance car. They're using them in NASCAR!" Yeah, they're using something called a Chevy Impala in NASCAR, but that car is nothing like the car you can buy at your local GM dealership, and having the same name doesn't give it the same performance.

We were talking about consumer-level, non BES (or other MDM)-controlled devices.

[anon(9471936)]

Thanks for the information. Yes, it is new to me that BBOS and BBM is collecting data, because I have not used that environment, yet. I am just starting to use BBM and like it much. It is a pity that it is not much different from other alternatives (at least in their ToS). I would not use BES.

I am aware that the other big internet companies use my data to make money. I am conscious of that and do worry. Not because what they do now, but what could happen with my data in future. I guess that nobody can assure me that my data (and that of my kids) will not be used at some point to sell to third parties who might use that to give me (my kids) an advantage or disadvantage. Fb has changed their privacy policy many times and always to the disadvantage of their users. And companies might go down the drain and opt to sell the data to make some revenue at last – or might be bought by others. Insurance companies are very interested in finding out if potential new customers have conditions they do not want to insure. So it might be more difficult in future for, let’s say, people with heart conditions, to find health policies. On the other hand it will be easier for young and healthy ppl (and who do not care to share their data) to find good insurance policies. It is already starting with certain apps, although I do not have to use their health tracking apps. On the other hand, if those companies get access to my privacy data from google et.al., I have no control any longer. That is what worries me.

I am also aware that it is difficult to completely circumvent data mining, if I want to take part in social media, etc. On the other hand, I try to stay away as good as possible. For instance, I do not use Google Apps, I do not use fb native apps (instead Tinfoil for fb), I do not post my entire life, I rarely use WhatsApp and no fb messanger, have little other apps installed. I do not use certain email providers. In my PC browsers I use add-ons to protect tracking (though they might not work for everything). I try to weigh up what I do and what not. Of course, it is difficult as I want to take part in social media and nice and comfortable text messaging and computing. I do love to text with my family and friends and try to convince them to use alternatives. And of course, I might be naive in what I do, because I do not grasp the full extent of what data mining business can do. On the other hand I believe, that we consumer should not just give up on the fact that the companies are so powerful and trustworthy at this very moment, because of the threats I’ve mentioned above. I believe that Google is about to re-introduce App Ops (apps’ right management) only due to the fact that there are people conscious about privacy and Google fears to lose customers to the Apple environment (or others). So they do just enough to keep the majority happy. I am sorry that I talk so negative about Google, it is just because it is so dominant if you use Android. I know that (some) other internet companies are not much better. What a pity (imo).

Fortunately, there are some devices out there that do care about privacy (Blackphone, Jolla). Unfortunately, they appear to be limited in services/ options/ apps/ hardware and there is not much information out there for me to determine upfront, if it is worth stepping in. I don’t have that much cash to buy a Blackphone for 600 bucks just to check it out.

I might still go for BB. I love to have (again) a physical keyboard and an OS, which is a bit more secured (apps right management is there, I understand) and I really like the Hub (from what I have seen). At least, I will have made an informed decision to give away some of my privacy for the gain of some nice features. And I am very thankful to all of you here in the forum for your valuable information.

Cheers

[Jerry A]

Well you mentioned sad twice which seemed out of scale with what we are talking about so I thought that I should get clarification.

The point of the paragraph that you were seemingly sad about and what I was replying to your reply is where I mentioned repeated posters on here with no interest in BlackBerry continuing to provide their comments.

As far as the security part goes, consumers, myself included, don't really care. But for areas that really matter, BlackBerry devices, even with BES, are the most secure if you believe what John Chen is saying. Where I work, BES is used but only Apple and BlackBerry devices are allowed. Android not secure enough. In the really critical area (leaders of the G7 for example) BlackBerry is dominant. The tone of this thread, however, was that all phones have equal security, despite apparent evidence to the contrary.




Posted via CB10

Not sad (or mad or glad). Maybe you're projecting your feelings?

Regardless, the discussion at hand is about the level of telemetry data (usage, location, etc.) extracted by handset manufacturers (including BlackBerry) and the apps/services one chooses to use.

Why do you continue to reply with non-relevant (and incorrect) information?

[Jerry A]

We were talking about consumer-level, non BES (or other MDM)-controlled devices.

And even with a MDM solution (BES or otherwise), if Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. are allowed on the device by policy, then those apps are still collecting your information.

[z10Jobe]

Not sad (or mad or glad). Maybe you're projecting your feelings?

Regardless, the discussion at hand is about the level of telemetry data (usage, location, etc.) extracted by handset manufacturers (including BlackBerry) and the apps/services one chooses to use.

Why do you continue to reply with non-relevant (and incorrect) information?

What incorrect information am I repeating?

Are you denying that you said sad twice? If you weren't sad, were others sad? Probably not

My guess is that you were over dramatizing the effects of my comments because you didn't agree with them which is fine, as there is a lot of disagreement on this website.

Posted via CB10

[z10Jobe]

Germany is not just using BB10, with BES, but going even further with SecuSmart. No doubt the three together are a winning combo if you are the leader of a country, but none of that matters for consumers - they aren't on BES, to say nothing of SecuSmart, and a regular BB10 device not on BES isn't more secure or private than any other OS to any significant degree.

Your argument is like saying "what do you mean, a Chevy Impala isn't a high-performance car. They're using them in NASCAR!" Yeah, they're using something called a Chevy Impala in NASCAR, but that car is nothing like the car you can buy at your local GM dealership, and having the same name doesn't give it the same performance.

We were talking about consumer-level, non BES (or other MDM)-controlled devices.

As I said, consumers don't care about security and neither do I. Since the OP was talking about 911 I assumed that the discussion encompassed more than consumer level security that nobody cares about.

Posted via CB10

[KNEBB]

Yet more:

I'm just tagging in to say that this is an on going issue, not just in this forum and it's growing.

Just since this topic was raised here, no less than three Data Privacy issues are being debated at the highest levels of US government, including the Executive Branch, Congress, and the Supreme Court (two separate Data Privacy concerns and one that has relevance to both of the others really in the full scope of things .)
(2 of 3 are posted in hypertext below)

And in the sense of true irony; the "CNN" news feed I've been receiving has posted a "new" Privacy Agreement to those using their feed. It states roughly, close to: by using this service you are subjecting your device to a form of Data Mining from their service.

So in essence they're reporting on stories of "Concerns" associated accessing the communications and private data of US Citizens , while essentially doing the same.

Ironic .

So, folks elsewhere are concerned and are taking about it.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politi...ing/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/28/politi...ats/index.html


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