[Platinum_2]

How’s making sure to only support profitable business crippling? If TCL can’t afford to play or there’s not enough people to support a product, that’s just how it goes... BBL chose to exit mobile because it felt it wasn’t a feasible business line. Motorola did the same decision several years ago

See Troy's response. Additionally, Mobile phones will never be profitable for BBL (or any partner) because BBL have proven themselves to be wholly incompetent in the mobile phone space for years now. I think TCL has verified this for themselves at this point.

The whole thing has gotten ridiculous, actually. TCL likely thinks the same, and will probably pack it in and call it a day. As a result, BlackBerry fans will be relegated to CB discussions of old-tech devices with little to no OEM support.

Good times ahead, indeed.

[Paulelmar18]

...On a side note, another forum member here runs some fan site in Germany if memory serves. When approaching TCL for answers, I believe, regardless of heightened level of tenacity coupled with some negative consent interrogatory questions, he’s effectively been told in polite silence, to practice self gratification if nothing better to do....

Hi, Chuck, your memory hasn't gone away. But maybe some background information will help you to understand the cooperation between TCL/BlackBerry Mobile and our forum, BlackBerryBase.net.

We had a close relationship with TCL/BlackBerry Mobile from the moment TCL/BlackBerry Mobile took over the license from BlackBerry Ltd. Interestingly, the contact was actively sought by TCL/BlackBerry Mobile, not by us.

We were invited to all events of TCL/BlackBerry Mobile Germany and received a lot of information (roadmaps, relationship to Google, etc.) under NDA and also the coming devices were shown to us months before their release. We could hold them in our hands, test them and express our opinion.

Of course we were also present at the MeetUps with Kevin Michaluk in Berlin and Frankfurt at the invitation of TCL/BlackBerry Mobile. Personally, I thought it was nice to meet Kevin.

We constantly received devices to test them and/or to give them away to our community or to raffle them.

If we had questions to TCL/BlackBerry Mobile, they were answered promptly and in detail. Of course also some things under NDA.

All this was valid until the beginning of 2019. From January on TCL/BlackBerry Mobile neither actively informed us nor answered our questions. And it's definitely not our fault because nothing has changed in our behavior.

And only for the reason that we did not receive any information directly from TCL/BlackBerry Mobile, we did our own research. About PIE, about updates and upcoming devices. And all the information I posted on the BlackberryBase and here on CB I still stand.

I assume that the collaboration between TCL/BlackBerry Mobile and CB was and is similar.

So far, none of my statements have been refuted. Or am I wrong?

And until that happens, I will follow your advice and continue to gratify myself.

[Chuck Finley69]

See Troy's response. Additionally, Mobile phones will never be profitable for BBL (or any partner) because BBL have proven themselves to be wholly incompetent in the mobile phone space for years now. I think TCL has verified this for themselves at this point.

The whole thing has gotten ridiculous, actually. TCL likely thinks the same, and will probably pack it in and call it a day. As a result, BlackBerry fans will be relegated to CB discussions of old-tech devices with little to no OEM support.

Good times ahead, indeed.

The question is what’s BBL supposed to do? If BBL was your company to run after leaving mobile behind three years ago, exactly what could you have done different specifically? From the beginning, TCL structured everything in a way to limit risk themselves and only use limited resources.

[Chuck Finley69]

Hi, Chuck, your memory hasn't gone away. But maybe some background information will help you to understand the cooperation between TCL/BlackBerry Mobile and our forum, BlackBerryBase.net.

We had a close relationship with TCL/BlackBerry Mobile from the moment TCL/BlackBerry Mobile took over the license from BlackBerry Ltd. Interestingly, the contact was actively sought by TCL/BlackBerry Mobile, not by us.

We were invited to all events of TCL/BlackBerry Mobile Germany and received a lot of information (roadmaps, relationship to Google, etc.) under NDA and also the coming devices were shown to us months before their release. We could hold them in our hands, test them and express our opinion.

Of course we were also present at the MeetUps with Kevin Michaluk in Berlin and Frankfurt at the invitation of TCL/BlackBerry Mobile. Personally, I thought it was nice to meet Kevin.

We constantly received devices to test them and/or to give them away to our community or to raffle them.

If we had questions to TCL/BlackBerry Mobile, they were answered promptly and in detail. Of course also some things under NDA.

All this was valid until the beginning of 2019. From January on TCL/BlackBerry Mobile neither actively informed us nor answered our questions. And it's definitely not our fault because nothing has changed in our behavior.

And only for the reason that we did not receive any information directly from TCL/BlackBerry Mobile, we did our own research. About PIE, about updates and upcoming devices. And all the information I posted on the BlackberryBase and here on CB I still stand.

I assume that the collaboration between TCL/BlackBerry Mobile and CB was and is similar.

So far, none of my statements have been refuted. Or am I wrong?

And until that happens, I will follow your advice and continue to gratify myself.

Wasn’t advice from me... that was the polite response as I basically interpreted from the powers that be. You’ve done nothing to me for me to suggest anything.

[Paulelmar18]

The admins and team members of the BlackBerryBase see themselves as representatives of the community's interests.

That's why we don't stay calm when TCL/BlackBerry Mobile is silent. That's why we want to know what TCL/BlackBerry Mobile's policy is? And that's why we keep asking over and over again.

That is our self understanding as responsible person of a forum for BlackBerry enthusiasts, who invested much money, time and heart blood into the brand.

Obviously, CB acts differently here.

If you say, "I believe a company has the right to say nothing..." then that's ok, but definitely not in the interest of the community, which wants to know if and where the journey is going on.

[conite]

which wants to know if and where the journey is going on.

My enjoyment of my KEY² is not predicated on future devices from BBMo - I already got what I paid for.

In any event, TCL is not going to tell us anything until, at the very least, they decide themselves what they are intending to do.

[nevilleadaniels]

You may well find that the next phones out from TCL BlackBerry maybe Alcatel phones with built-in hub or at least the Hub preloaded in userspace before new subscription paid for.
And that means a slab

[Platinum_2]

The question is what’s BBL supposed to do? If BBL was your company to run after leaving mobile behind three years ago, exactly what could you have done different specifically? From the beginning, TCL structured everything in a way to limit risk themselves and only use limited resources.

As I said in another thread, I would have sold the patents to anything handset related. I would have re-deployed the proceeds to my "new" business. Then I would focus all resources on the new business and build my brand around it. If I can't get much for the patents, oh well....I guess they aren't worth much. But holding onto any of these resources likely does little to grow and expand my new business.

It also creates confusion among investors and customers. Investors are left asking: Are we in mobile, or not? If we are, why? Does it add to our bottom line in a meaningful way with respect to other opportunities?

Customers are left pondering: Does BlackBerry still make phones? Wait, they're Android now? I thought BlackBerry went out of business?

BlackBerry is a "new" company that has been vocal about moving out of the handset business. Except they haven't. They're just doing it differently. They don't manufacture them, but they might as well since they have design control and influence.

They keep a toe in the water...just in case...maybe...let's wait and see....might have a chance later.....if....

It comes across looking as though the company lacks direction (because they do) and are grabbing onto and retaining anything they think "might" make money (because they are). Commendable. But, you must pursue things that actually make money and create value for shareholders in a substantial way. This, they have not done. I think their share price and market cap reflect this fact, and shareholder meetings make an outsider grimace.

[conite]

As I said in another thread, I would have sold the patents to anything handset related. I would have re-deployed the proceeds to my "new" business. Then I would focus all resources on the new business and build my brand around it. If I can't get much for the patents, oh well....I guess they aren't worth much. But holding onto any of these resources likely does little to grow and expand my new business.

It also creates confusion among investors and customers. Investors are left asking: Are we in mobile, or not? If we are, why? Does it add to our bottom line in a meaningful way with respect to other opportunities?

Customers are left pondering: Does BlackBerry still make phones? Wait, they're Android now? I thought BlackBerry went out of business?

BlackBerry is a "new" company that has been vocal about moving out of the handset business. Except they haven't. They're just doing it differently. They don't manufacture them, but they might as well since they have design control and influence.

They keep a toe in the water...just in case...maybe...let's wait and see....might have a chance later.....if....

It comes across looking as though the company lacks direction (because they do) and are grabbing onto and retaining anything they think "might" make money (because they are). Commendable. But, you must pursue things that actually make money and create value for shareholders in a substantial way. This, they have not done. I think their share price and market cap reflect this fact, and shareholder meetings make an outsider grimace.

I think you overstate the impact on handset licencing within BlackBerry - it's a relatively small side project.

Investors only care that BlackBerry is trying to monetise their IP as best they can - they spent a lot of money creating it.

Customers in the auto sector couldn't care less.

[Paulelmar18]

As I said in another thread, I would have sold the patents to anything handset related. I would have re-deployed the proceeds to my "new" business. Then I would focus all resources on the new business and build my brand around it. If I can't get much for the patents, oh well....I guess they aren't worth much. But holding onto any of these resources likely does little to grow and expand my new business.

It also creates confusion among investors and customers. Investors are left asking: Are we in mobile, or not? If we are, why? Does it add to our bottom line in a meaningful way with respect to other opportunities?

Customers are left pondering: Does BlackBerry still make phones? Wait, they're Android now? I thought BlackBerry went out of business?

BlackBerry is a "new" company that has been vocal about moving out of the handset business. Except they haven't. They're just doing it differently. They don't manufacture them, but they might as well since they have design control and influence.

They keep a toe in the water...just in case...maybe...let's wait and see....might have a chance later.....if....

It comes across looking as though the company lacks direction (because they do) and are grabbing onto and retaining anything they think "might" make money (because they are). Commendable. But, you must pursue things that actually make money and create value for shareholders in a substantial way. This, they have not done. I think their share price and market cap reflect this fact, and shareholder meetings make an outsider grimace.

Agree!!!

[Smokeaire]

My enjoyment of my KEY² is not predicated on future devices from BBMo - I already got what I paid for.

In any event, TCL is not going to tell us anything until, at the very least, they decide themselves what they are intending to do.

That's how I feel about my KEYᵒⁿᵉ and Key²LE.
If BBMo/TCL stops making pkb phones I certainly won't abandon my favorite Android phones just for that.

[Platinum_2]

I think you overstate the impact on handset licencing within BlackBerry - it's a relatively small side project.

That was my point. Sorry if you interpreted otherwise. It's so small they need to just get out completely. It would be better for them. The toe-in-the-water approach is not helping them gain market share, clearly define their brand or add value to shareholders. They need to either be in, or out. It's that simple.

[howarmat]

They have a obligation right now they cant just drop and run. So in 2 years your might see them bow out but I dont think they will up and leave in the middle of contracts and turn their backs completely on the Key owners.

[Platinum_2]

They have a obligation right now they cant just drop and run. So in 2 years your might see them bow out but I dont think they will up and leave in the middle of contracts and turn their backs completely on the Key owners.

True. But, in response to Chuck's question, I would have not done it in the first place.

The Titan concept is what might work in the marketplace. First, it does not have a tarnished name. Next, it represents what a small market would want (PKB, durability, presumably android support, competitive pricing) and a business model with expectations that might be more realistic. Have to wait and see I guess.

[conite]

That was my point. It's so small they need to just get out completely. It would be better for them. The toe-in-the-water approach is not helping them gain market share, clearly define their brand or add value to shareholders. They need to either be in, or out. It's that simple.

At the end of the day, they still made millions off of the licencing. They would have been negligent had they not tried.

[conite]

True. But, in response to Chuck's question, I would have not done it in the first place.

The Titan concept is what might work in the marketplace. First, it does not have a tarnished name. Next, it represents what a small market would want (PKB, durability, presumably android support, competitive pricing) and a business model with expectations that might be more realistic. Have to wait and see I guess.

Sure , but I just can't believe a small kickstarter outfit can build a decent enough keyboard without BlackBerry's "help". There is no half-way when it comes to a physical keyboard - the hardware and software have to be almost perfect.

The line between that and today's excellent virtual keyboards is already fine.

[RK_BB]

the hardware and software have to be almost perfect.

Almost!

[Platinum_2]

At the end of the day, they still made millions off of the licencing. They would have been negligent had they not tried.

Hard to know what the opportunity costs were. So, the fact they made millions may be irrelevant.

[conite]

Hard to know what the opportunity costs were. So, the fact they made millions may be irrelevant.

It's not like they raided other departments for the staff or the resources - they were left over from the handset days, and likely would have been let go anyway.

[Platinum_2]

Sure , but I just can't believe a small kickstarter outfit can build a decent enough keyboard without BlackBerry's "help". There is no half-way when it comes to a physical keyboard - the hardware and software have to be almost perfect.

The line between that and today's excellent virtual keyboards is already fine.

That's just it. I don't think BlackBerry is helpful at this point. Consumers either want a PKB, or they don't. I am not convinced there is much opportunity to convert VKB users to PKB. If that were true, it would have already happened.

Therefore, once BlackBerry is fully out of the mobile handset business with no licensees, the PKB from Titan only need to be "good enough" for the small market that desires them. There will be no other PKB options and legacy BlackBerry/BBMo devices will eventually EOL.

If BlackBerry is fearful of their PKB patents not being worth what they think they are now....just wait....they'll be free if it goes down like this. Then investors will get screwed again because patents that were worth $$$$ will be worth $.

[PantherBlitz]

Hard to know what the opportunity costs were. So, the fact they made millions may be irrelevant.

They don't make much on their automobile infotainment systems either, so any profit from their handset division is welcome.

[Platinum_2]

It's not like they raided other departments for the staff or the resources - they were left over from the handset days, and likely would have been let go anyway.

The bigger point is they should have let it all go and refocused on the new business. That's what shareholders wanted. They are tired of hearing about BlackBerry's involvement in mobile phones. There us not enough money in it (obviously). It didn't work from 2013 to now and won't going forward.

[Platinum_2]

They don't make much on their automobile infotainment systems either, so any profit from their handset division is welcome.

Yet, another problem.

[conite]

The bigger point is they should have let it all go and refocused on the new business. That's what shareholders wanted. They are tired of hearing about BlackBerry's involvement in mobile phones. There us not enough money in it (obviously). It didn't work from 2013 to now and won't going forward.

Who says investors are tired of mobile licencing revenue?

And who says the real powers that be aren't completely focused on their new business ventures?

[conite]

They don't make much on their automobile infotainment systems either, so any profit from their handset division is welcome.

While it doesn't blow the doors off the income statement, it is their way in to the autonomous-auto market - which is potentially very lucrative.