02-07-12 03:28 AM
131 ... 3456
tools
  1. xandermac's Avatar
    I can see how most peopel think this but that isn't how it works. The activist targets usually the market leader and/or the worst company (in this case it's one in the same - I know the people that study this issue and Apple's record is worse than other companies). They pressure the target to make a change and then they use that to leaverage other companies to match. That's the way they do it and it is effective. Targeting industry doesn't work it's too amorphous.

    We are in the very very early stages of this.
    Let's hope it works. I wouldn't like to see RIM and it's supports too smug though, they're guilty of the same thing.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    01-31-12 01:58 PM
  2. xandermac's Avatar
    This is what Apple is doing. I'd love to see what others are doing. Maybe a link to RIM's supply chain audit and their ongoing policy on labor practices? Apple admit there's a long way to go but where is everyone else at this table? Where is RIM?

    Apple reveals supply chain, details conditions | Reuters

    "With every year, we expand our program, we go deeper in our supply chain, we make it harder to comply," Cook told Reuters in an interview. "All of this means that workers will be treated better and better with each passing year. It's not something we feel like we have done what we can do, much remains to be done."

    Apple said it will grant access to an independent auditing team from the Fair Labor Association, in its continuing effort to overcome criticism regarding working conditions at its supply factories. It also terminated business with one unidentified supplier and was "correcting" the practices of another.

    Again, what are others doing? Apple appears to be the only company lifting a finger, so if you oppose unfair labor practises why do you support a company that has ZERO transparency? I'll promise you i don't get an answer to this question, just more finger pointing.
    Last edited by xandermac; 01-31-12 at 02:14 PM.
    01-31-12 02:10 PM
  3. mjs416's Avatar
    Since he brought up GE before, it's important to note that GE's effective tax rate for 2010 was a negative 64%. Maybe these are the "semantics" to which he alludes.
    I would honestly go back and try and point out the flow of posts and responses but if I did that - you would argue what the definition of "is" is or something equally ridiculous. It's not my job to explain my posts several times to you until you understand. And me thinks you need to look up the definition of semantics.
    01-31-12 02:45 PM
  4. mjs416's Avatar
    Nope, never claimed that.



    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Right because your retort to me posting an article about china labor wasn't to claim RIM was worse because they used conflict minerals That is of course after you initiated a a discussion on intelligence if you recall. Politicians use the same tactic.

    Edit: for spling!
    Last edited by mjs416; 01-31-12 at 02:54 PM.
    01-31-12 02:51 PM
  5. xandermac's Avatar
    Right because your retort to me posting an article about china labor wasn't to claim RIM was worse because they used conflict minerals That is of course after you iniated a a discussion on intelligence if you recall. Politicians use the same tactic.
    Once again you are mistaken. You insisted on quoting your IQ scores in the thread hence you turned the conversation toward intelligence.

    I ask again, what have rim done.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreyc...ur-blackberry/


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    01-31-12 02:54 PM
  6. mjs416's Avatar
    Once again you are mistaken. You insisted on quoting your IQ scores in the thread hence you turned the conversation toward intelligence.

    I ask again, what have rim done.

    Do You Know Who Manufactured Your Blackberry? - Forbes


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Actually, you calling me a RIMbecile initiated the questions of intelligence. I don't expect you to acknowledge that as you continue to lie.

    And with that article ( by a Forbes subscriber I might add lol) - please point out facility or safety accidents that occurred in manufacturing plants that produce RIM components.

    Edit: and this guy can't seem to differentiate between the hardware supply chain and the software that creates RIM's security. The software is what creates the encryption - not the capacitor. Lol nice article.

    Edit2: that article is a year old also - do you have any info proving the point that their supply chains haven't changed whilst wanting to expand production facilities in other Asian countries? Probably not.
    Last edited by mjs416; 01-31-12 at 03:21 PM.
    01-31-12 03:10 PM
  7. xandermac's Avatar
    Actually, you calling me a RIMbecile initiated the questions of intelligence. I don't expect you to acknowledge that as you continue to lie.

    And with that article ( by a Forbes subscriber I might add lol) - please point out facility or safety accidents that occurred in manufacturing plants that produce RIM components.
    RIMbecile was a general term, not once was it directed at you. Perhaps you take things too personally.

    I'm assuming by your non-answer that you have absolutely no idea what rim has done, and I'm assuming also that you believe there have been no accidents in any of the Chinese manufacturing facilities that rim contract out to. That's because the answer to my question is nothing. Rim have done nothing, zero transparency, zero acknowledgment, zero accountability and zero progress. I actually feel better about where my dollars are going now, thank you.

    Edit. As to the link, The person that wrote that article links to his own source, Bloomberg, everything in the Bloomberg article is verifiable. I'm not sure that anything in that can be disputed but if any of the manufacturers listed are inaccurate perhaps somebody could point that out.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Last edited by xandermac; 01-31-12 at 03:40 PM.
    01-31-12 03:14 PM
  8. mjs416's Avatar
    RIMbecile was a general term, not once was it directed at you. Perhaps you take things too personally.

    I'm assuming by your non-answer that you have absolutely no idea what rim has done, and I'm assuming also that you believe there have been no accidents in any of the Chinese manufacturing facilities that rim contract out to. That's because the answer to my question is nothing. Rim have done nothing, zero transparency, zero acknowledgment, zero accountability and zero progress. I actually feel better about where my dollars are going now, thank you.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    With the way the media constantly hammers RIM don't you think if there was something to blame them for that it would be plastered across every tech blog out there?
    01-31-12 03:25 PM
  9. xandermac's Avatar
    With the way the media constantly hammers RIM don't you think if there was something to blame them for that it would be plastered across every tech blog out there?
    It'll come. Now that the focus is on labor it'll come. RIMs supply chain is too deeply rooted in China for it not to. Be careful what you wish for. I'm guessing the governments supposed list of shame later this year will shed some more light. Again there is a lot to do and Apple are a big part of the problem but other manufacturers will not be except from scrutiny.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Last edited by xandermac; 01-31-12 at 03:30 PM.
    01-31-12 03:28 PM
  10. mjs416's Avatar
    It'll come. Now that the focus is on labor it'll come. RIMs supply chain is too deeply rooted in China for it not to. Be careful what you wish for. I'm guessing the governments supposed list of shame later this year will shed some more light.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    It might. But right now it looks like apple has the corner on the slave labor market.
    tekki likes this.
    01-31-12 03:30 PM
  11. xandermac's Avatar
    It might. But right now it looks like apple has the corner on the slave labor market.
    Agreed


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    01-31-12 03:30 PM
  12. Kiddo2050's Avatar
    From what I know Apple is the worst offender in this area. I think what we see here is that because people like Apple products and admire other aspects of the company, they tend to not accept the fact that the company could be worse than rivals in any way, ie., Apple must be better at RIM in how they treat workers because Apple is better than RIm at everything. This is very likely untrue.

    Apple is extreemly good at focusing on general end consumers and what they want. This laser focus very likely means less of an emphasis put on other aspects of the corporate value chain.

    However as I said earlier it really doesn't matter if other companies have similar issues. Apple is the largest, and has the most resources. It should be leading the way in this issue and not be the biggest contributor to the problem.

    Apple has undertaken some half-hearted attempts at "self-audits," but they are as close to bogus as you can get, and this has been pointed out.
    It is really Nike all over again. When Nike faced similar allegations their first response was "we don't manufacture shoes, we just design them." No go said activists. The campaign went on until finally NBA players started to say they wouldn't wear Nike shoes. Then the company acted. They had independent audit of suppliers etc.

    Apple is a long way from there yet, and it's actually customers who refuse to call the company to task that are the main part of the problem. Until customers demand better little will be done. Employees are another source of pressure but I don't see that arising here.

    ... and you get all that for free. I usually charge more than $1000 an hour
    lotuslanderz likes this.
    01-31-12 05:50 PM
  13. Kiddo2050's Avatar
    From what I know Apple is the worst offender in this area. I think what we see here is that because people like Apple products and admire other aspects of the company, they tend to not accept the fact that the company could be worse than rivals in any way, ie., Apple must be better at RIM in how they treat workers because Apple is better than RIm at everything. This is very likely untrue.

    Apple is extreemly good at focusing on general end consumers and what they want. This laser focus very likely means less of an emphasis put on other aspects of the corporate value chain.

    However as I said earlier it really doesn't matter if other companies have similar issues. Apple is the largest, and has the most resources. It should be leading the way in this issue and not be the biggest contributor to the problem.

    Apple has undertaken some half-hearted attempts at "self-audits," but they are as close to bogus as you can get, and this has been pointed out.
    It is really Nike all over again. When Nike faced similar allegations their first response was "we don't manufacture shoes, we just design them." No go said activists. The campaign went on until finally NBA players started to say they wouldn't wear Nike shoes. Then the company acted. They had independent audit of suppliers etc.

    Apple is a long way from there yet, and it's actually customers who refuse to call the company to task that are the main part of the problem. Until customers demand better little will be done. Employees are another source of pressure but I don't see that arising here.

    ... and you get all that for free. I usually charge more than $1000 an hour
    01-31-12 05:51 PM
  14. tack's Avatar
    As I stated in earlier posts, Apple is not the worst or only offender. Most of you seem like Apple haters.

    They happen to be huge and a sizeable portion of the suppliers' business. These suppliers (Foxconn, etc) make phones, laptops, etc for numerous people including Dell, HP, Motorola, etc.

    Apple does not pick their practices or methods at all. Trust me, I have been a supplier to both sides. They can dictate only so much. It is China for goodness sake. No one dictates practices there! I do business there a lot.

    You can keep pointing fingers, but you don't know what you are talking about for the most part. It is not going to make people quit liking Apple products and switch to RIM. lol
    01-31-12 07:58 PM
  15. xandermac's Avatar
    Apple is a long way from there yet, and it's actually customers who refuse to call the company to task that are the main part of the problem. Until customers demand better little will be done. Employees are another source of pressure but I don't see that arising here.

    ... and you get all that for free. I usually charge more than $1000 an hour
    I'd like to see your sources showing that apple is the worst offender. I'm not doubting it, but for $1000 per hour you should have a lot of independent supporting evidence. The fact that no other manufacturer audits their supply chain and publishes the results would indicate that there are no comparative results.

    As to your point about customers, I agree entirely and you'll see, if you read back, that it has been a common theme on my part, for ALL manufacturers. We should demand transparency so that we know what "our" company is doing lest we inappropriately cast stones that will ultimately come back to us. To do otherwise is hypocrisy.

    This is the statement from the Fair Labor Association regarding Apple being the first tech company to open their supply chain to independent audit. I'm interested in seeing some reports.

    https://www.fairlabor.org/fla/Public..._Joins_FLA.pdf

    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Last edited by xandermac; 02-01-12 at 08:14 AM.
    02-01-12 07:53 AM
  16. olblueyez's Avatar
    This is not an Apple issue. Apple is merely the example. By allowing US companies to move jobs off shore for slave wages the government has allowed thousands of companies to increase margins.

    Now we have millions of unemployed people in the US and what we are told is "The US needs to Improve our Education System" so people can get jobs. Complete Nonsence.

    Watch:

    Once again the American public has been duped. "We can't compete with a cheap labor force like China has" is drilled into our brains every single time we hear about this subject. The truth is we have always had ways of dealing with this issue. Tariffs and Responsible Taxation have been replaced with Greed, Corruption, and now massive unemployment that will begin to errode the reason for having these nefarious Buisness and Political practices in the first place.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but I have a habit of buying based on the country of origin and my list is prioritized. China is at the very bottom of my list.

    Unless I want some Peking Duck!

    Oh, I forgot, that's American.
    02-01-12 09:59 AM
  17. xandermac's Avatar
    Here's Nokia making a start. Now where is RIM? Time to put a little pressure on.

    http://mobile.theverge.com/2012/2/3/...-public-policy


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    02-03-12 07:12 AM
  18. olblueyez's Avatar
    well i cant really control that so i am gonna get my word anyway i can.and that is weird isn't it the biggest religion there is Buddhism and they the ones who make most of the bibles lol that is ridiculous isnt it. oh come on yall feel me.ALSO I THINK GOD IS HAPPY THAT WE ARE READING THE BIBLE AT ALL IT DOESNT MATTER WHERE THE HECK IT IS MADE IN AS LONG AS U ARE FEEDING ON IT
    What?
    02-03-12 10:40 AM
  19. olblueyez's Avatar
    02-06-12 07:30 AM
  20. tekki's Avatar
    I watched CNN's report on chinese labor and apple products, how most workers are paid under a dollar an hour. The mass suicide of 12 employees, and other things. It is despicable that the country allows what's going on, but it is entirely unacceptable that we in the USA take the moral high ground and allow these products to be sold in the us knowing how they are were built and under the conditions. Apple.designs great products but are in it for the buck and that buck isnt helping our economy in anyway. Stop the cruel labor
    02-06-12 10:08 AM
  21. palmless's Avatar
    I watched CNN's report on chinese labor and apple products, how most workers are paid under a dollar an hour. The mass suicide of 12 employees, and other things. It is despicable that the country allows what's going on, but it is entirely unacceptable that we in the USA take the moral high ground and allow these products to be sold in the us knowing how they are were built and under the conditions. Apple.designs great products but are in it for the buck and that buck isnt helping our economy in anyway. Stop the cruel labor
    Do you realize...

    - The Foxconn suicide rate is lower than the rate for the non-Foxconn workers in the region. Conclusion: Working at Foxconn lowers the risk of suicide.

    - The Foxconn suicide rate is 1/10th the rate of the state of Indiana. Conclusion: Those lamenting the suicide rate likely live in areas with HIGHER suicide rates.

    - The wage paid is already pay WELL above the prevailing wage for the region. Conclusion: The manufacturers are already working to raise the wage base of the region.

    Just a few of things that become obvious upon contemplation.

    This isn't about Apple. It's about the inability of people to critically analyze misleading reporting.
    02-06-12 11:10 AM
  22. olblueyez's Avatar
    Do you realize...

    - The Foxconn suicide rate is lower than the rate for the non-Foxconn workers in the region. Conclusion: Working at Foxconn lowers the risk of suicide.

    - The Foxconn suicide rate is 1/10th the rate of the state of Indiana. Conclusion: Those lamenting the suicide rate likely live in areas with HIGHER suicide rates.

    - The wage paid is already pay WELL above the prevailing wage for the region. Conclusion: The manufacturers are already working to raise the wage base of the region.

    Just a few of things that become obvious upon contemplation.

    This isn't about Apple. It's about the inability of people to critically analyze misleading reporting.
    The title of the thread implies this is not just about Apple and as you can see if you go back and read instead of merely reading the last post you will see this.

    Your post also points out that working conditions on China are grotesque and not merely about Apple or Foxconn. The Chinese are doing nothing to improve labor conditions and as they mentioned in the video is quite the Plutocracy.
    02-06-12 12:47 PM
  23. palmless's Avatar
    The title of the thread implies this is not just about Apple and as you can see if you go back and read instead of merely reading the last post you will see this.

    Your post also points out that working conditions on China are grotesque and not merely about Apple or Foxconn. The Chinese are doing nothing to improve labor conditions and as they mentioned in the video is quite the Plutocracy.
    And Indiana. You forgot Indiana.
    02-06-12 02:15 PM
  24. pkcable's Avatar
    Not all overseas labor is a bad thing! Many times the factories are state of the art, the workers are paid reasonably AND the factory puts many people to work who would otherwise be unemployed.
    02-06-12 02:25 PM
  25. palmless's Avatar
    Not all overseas labor is a bad thing! Many times the factories are state of the art, the workers are paid reasonably AND the factory puts many people to work who would otherwise be unemployed.
    And to the topic of Foxconn/China, the employment offers much better working conditions, hours, and pay than the alternative. Folks need to read a little deeper before assuming they know how to "fix" everything. "Fix" Foxconn a little too much and you sentence those workers to 2x tougher work in the fields for 1/2 the pay.
    02-06-12 02:32 PM
131 ... 3456
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD