02-07-12 04:28 AM
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  1. Economist101's Avatar
    How about make their crappy products in the usa? Thats what they should do.
    If they made crappy products, no one would care where they were made.
    01-30-12 07:27 PM
  2. avt123's Avatar
    OK fair enough. I'll not ask people to ignore human rights issues (even though I never did that to begin with) if you stop trying to make apple out to be the morally superior company that they arent.
    I don't think he was trying to make them morally superior. Just showing that while one side of their business (Chinese labor) is because called out for how terrible it is, they are trying to make things better in a different area (no conflict materials from the Congo).

    Yes the working conditions are terrible. Yes things should be done. I think everyone agree with this. Maybe you should stop thinking xander is trying to make Apple look like the good guy when he is trying to bring out the bigger picture which is that almost all (if not all) tech companies are involved in terrible situations that are hurting lives for the sake of profit.

    But back to the topic, yes I do think Apple should do something about this. They have a lot of money and could definitely use some of it to make things better. But I do not think it is only Apple who should have to do this, I think all of the companies who use Foxconn should (or any Chinese labor factory), and the Chinese government should require better working conditions for their citizens at a government level.

    If the government allows things like this, it will never stop. There will always be one company who will do things like this (be it Apple or someone else).
    Last edited by avt123; 01-30-12 at 08:09 PM.
    01-30-12 08:06 PM
  3. xandermac's Avatar
    I don't think he was trying to make them morally superior. Just showing that while one side of their business (Chinese labor) is because called out for how terrible it is, they are trying to make things better in a different area (no conflict materials from the Congo).

    Yes the working conditions are terrible. Yes things should be done. I think everyone agree with this. Maybe you should stop thinking xander is trying to make Apple look like the good guy when he is trying to bring out the bigger picture which is that almost all (if not all) tech companies are involved in terrible situations that are hurting lives for the sake of profit.

    But back to the topic, yes I do think Apple should do something about this. They have a lot of money and could definitely use some of it to make things better. But I do not think it is only Apple who should have to do this, I think all of the companies who use Foxconn should (or any Chinese labor factory), and the Chinese government should require better working conditions for their citizens at a government level.

    If the government allows things like this, it will never stop. There will always be one company who will do things like this (be it Apple or someone else).
    Thank you, I think you understand my point. It's not that Apple are doing better it's that Apple are only a part of the problem and if we try to square the blame purely on their shoulders nothing will get done. It's up to each and every one of us to confront our manufacturer of choice and insist that they get involved also. Unfortunately people would rather point fingers and assume the problem is someone else's to address while in the meantime letting other manufacturers slide.

    One of the reasons I use Apple is because of their efforts towards transparency in this area. They're the only technology company that audits their supply chain, they are the only technology company that audits their manufacturers and they are the only technology company that publishes these results publicly.

    The United States passed legislation, last year I believe, that will require all companies that do business in the United States publicly share whether they use conflict minerals in the production of their products. Supposedly, later this year, a list of shame will be published and unfortunately RIM will be on that list.

    Chinese manufacturing facilities are a part of the problem that needs to be addressed but it pales in comparison to the other atrocities that are taking place around the world for the sake of our gadgets.

    Can Apple do more? Yes, of course they can as can every other manufacturer but they won't without our pressure. Placing the burden on one company will not effect change. So why not demand that all companies audit their chain and publish the results and see what happens.

    I'm glad that attention is being brought to this issue, I don't care that it is Apple in the Spotlight because it might raise awareness to the bigger issues and force all companies to finally do something.


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    Last edited by xandermac; 01-31-12 at 08:22 AM.
    01-31-12 08:10 AM
  4. xandermac's Avatar
    Perhaps a government more friendly to business might help the U.S. bring manufacturing home.

    http://i.tuaw.com/2012/01/31/foxconn...produce-apple/

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    01-31-12 01:17 PM
  5. blackberry-unlocking710's Avatar
    I think that China is not the best place to build things... even the Blackberry devices made in Mexico aren't that good.
    01-31-12 01:27 PM
  6. mjs416's Avatar

    I didn't make any claims about the amount of taxes paid, nor did I state the benefit from taxes alone was significant. As far as I know, anything paid is better than nothing. Nice try, though.
    You didnt say...

    "As for the good people of California, we benefit from Apple's corporate tax payments (at least of their U.S.-based income),"

    In order for you to benefit from corporate taxes - taxes would have to be paid wouldnt they? You play on semantics far too much.

    Nice try.
    01-31-12 01:31 PM
  7. mjs416's Avatar
    I don't think he was trying to make them morally superior. Just showing that while one side of their business (Chinese labor) is because called out for how terrible it is, they are trying to make things better in a different area (no conflict materials from the Congo).
    Which has everything to do with the thread titled China Labor.

    Yes the working conditions are terrible. Yes things should be done. I think everyone agree with this. Maybe you should stop thinking xander is trying to make Apple look like the good guy when he is trying to bring out the bigger picture which is that almost all (if not all) tech companies are involved in terrible situations that are hurting lives for the sake of profit.
    And maybe you should have posted in a former thread that was deleted by a mod because I took him to task for claiming Apple had some magical moral superiority because they used Chinese labor over conflict minerals. Bigger picture my arse.

    Edit: I am noticing a trend of people who come in these threads complaining and derailing. Its right next to their Device tag.
    Last edited by mjs416; 01-31-12 at 01:38 PM.
    01-31-12 01:35 PM
  8. Economist101's Avatar
    You didnt say...

    "As for the good people of California, we benefit from Apple's corporate tax payments (at least of their U.S.-based income),"
    I did say that. But, as indicated before, I didn't make any claims about the size of the benefit, just that there was one. You know, kind of like when you defend RIM by calling it profitable, without acknowledging just how much that profit has shrunk recently. I really have no idea how much in tax Apple paid last year, but I do know that if it was an insignificant amount, there would be stories, and plenty of threads here on CB discussing it.

    In order for you to benefit from corporate taxes - taxes would have to be paid wouldnt they? You play on semantics far too much.

    Nice try.
    Are you claiming Apple doesn't pay any corporate taxes? If you're not, I don't get what your point is.
    01-31-12 01:45 PM
  9. avt123's Avatar
    Which has everything to do with the thread titled China Labor.
    I never said it had anything to do with it. I just posted my interpretation of what he said.

    And maybe you should have posted in a former thread that was deleted by a mod because I took him to task for claiming Apple had some magical moral superiority because they used Chinese labor over conflict minerals. Bigger picture my arse.
    Actually, there is a bigger picture. If you read what I said, I think Apple should be doing something about the labor conditions in China. The bigger picture is that almost every company is involved in something shady. While others might not be in some area, they are in others (like Apple having Chinese labor facilities but also trying to not use conflict materials).

    I am not praising Apple for this. I believe they (and every company) should be doing everything in their power to be ethical and value human rights.

    Edit: I am noticing a trend of people who come in these threads complaining and derailing. Its right next to their Device tag.
    I didn't complain or derail (it was already that way), I posted my interpretation of said post and then below that I posted how I felt on the topic.

    My device tag means nothing. My opinion would be the same even if it said BlackBerry (and it was when I had one). I have no love for Apple. I may like some of their products but the company really doesn't mean anything to me. My opinion is my opinion and is not sponsored or supported by Apple just because I have an iPhone. I am getting rid of my iPhone in a few days anyways.
    Last edited by avt123; 01-31-12 at 02:02 PM.
    01-31-12 01:58 PM
  10. xandermac's Avatar
    You didnt say...

    "As for the good people of California, we benefit from Apple's corporate tax payments (at least of their U.S.-based income),"

    In order for you to benefit from corporate taxes - taxes would have to be paid wouldnt they? You play on semantics far too much.

    Nice try.
    Citizens for tax justice estimates apple paid a worldwide effective tax rate of 24.4% in 2010.


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    01-31-12 02:03 PM
  11. xandermac's Avatar
    And maybe you should have posted in a former thread that was deleted by a mod because I took him to task for claiming Apple had some magical moral superiority because they used Chinese labor over conflict minerals. Bigger picture my arse.
    Nope, never claimed that.



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    01-31-12 02:04 PM
  12. Economist101's Avatar
    Citizens for tax justice estimates apple paid a worldwide effective tax rate of 24.4% in 2010.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Since he brought up GE before, it's important to note that GE's effective tax rate for 2010 was a negative 64%. Maybe these are the "semantics" to which he alludes.
    01-31-12 02:09 PM
  13. xandermac's Avatar
    Since he brought up GE before, it's important to note that GE's effective tax rate for 2010 was a negative 64%. Maybe these are the "semantics" to which he alludes.
    It honestly doesn't matter to me what he says he's here merely to point fingers at Apple and ignore the big picture. This thread was entitled China labor not Apple China labor yet he points a finger squarely at one company and one company alone. He's not wrong, Apple are a major offender, he's just very selective in whom he chooses to blame.

    If he believes Apple are the only offending company and that they're the only ones that can fix this I'm afraid he's living in an alternate reality.

    It's up to all of us to hold all companies accountable and stop pointing fingers.


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    Last edited by xandermac; 01-31-12 at 02:15 PM.
    01-31-12 02:13 PM
  14. Kiddo2050's Avatar
    Thank you, I think you understand my point. It's not that Apple are doing better it's that Apple are only a part of the problem and if we try to square the blame purely on their shoulders nothing will get done. It's up to each and every one of us to confront our manufacturer of choice and insist that they get involved also. Unfortunately people would rather point fingers and assume the problem is someone else's to address while in the meantime letting other manufacturers slide.

    One of the reasons I use Apple is because of their efforts towards transparency in this area. They're the only technology company that audits their supply chain, they are the only technology company that audits their manufacturers and they are the only technology company that publishes these results publicly.

    The United States passed legislation, last year I believe, that will require all companies that do business in the United States publicly share whether they use conflict minerals in the production of their products. Supposedly, later this year, a list of shame will be published and unfortunately RIM will be on that list.

    Chinese manufacturing facilities are a part of the problem that needs to be addressed but it pales in comparison to the other atrocities that are taking place around the world for the sake of our gadgets.

    Can Apple do more? Yes, of course they can as can every other manufacturer but they won't without our pressure. Placing the burden on one company will not effect change. So why not demand that all companies audit their chain and publish the results and see what happens.

    I'm glad that attention is being brought to this issue, I don't care that it is Apple in the Spotlight because it might raise awareness to the bigger issues and force all companies to finally do something.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Sorry, when you have 100 billion dollars in cash, there is no excuse, including domestic government regulations or their enforcement. Think about it.... $100 billion in cash. No excuse. None.

    Also saying it is a larger isssue is just an attempt to brush aside Apple industry lagging notoriously poor record. No it isn't an industry issue it's Apple's issue. Deal with it Apple, you have the money, just deal with it!

    Placing the burden on one company is exactly how change is made. You obviously don't understand activist pressure. Apple is the exact right target. they are the largest and the worst and the one with the most resources to fix the problem. The fact that Apple is doing nothing is totally unforgivable. I'm sorry that you feel guilty for owning an iPhone, but if you'd look at this rationally you'd see Apple is exactly the right target.
    Last edited by Kiddo2050; 01-31-12 at 02:21 PM.
    01-31-12 02:15 PM
  15. xandermac's Avatar
    Sorry, when you have 100 billion dollars in cash. There is no excuse, including doemstic government regulations. Think about it $100 billion in cash. No excuse. None.
    I'm not disputing that. Never have. But the same goes for all manufacturers and if you're willing to let one slide you're willing to let them all slide. Apple alone cant change china.


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    01-31-12 02:17 PM
  16. xandermac's Avatar
    Also saying it is a larger isssue is just an attempt to brush aside Apple industry lagging notoriously poor record. No it isn't an industry issue it's Apple's issue. Deal with it Apple, you have the money, just deal with it!
    7 million deaths/murders is a BIGGER issue! This is beginning to sound like holocaust denial all over again!

    Go ahead, hold Apple solely accountable and ignore the rest of the problems and I hope you all feel better. You're all right, I defer to you all and your moral superiority for opposing Chinese labor.


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    01-31-12 02:23 PM
  17. Kiddo2050's Avatar
    Oh please. If the people in China feel they are not well treated, then they should rise up and so something about it, like we did in the US. It's not up to Apple or RIM to solve China's problems, it is the people that must want to make the change.

    If Apple does want to control manufacturing, then it should build its own facilities over in China, hire its own people, and pay them well. It shouldn't go solve Foxconn's problems.
    Sorry you are totally wrong. This is like saying the people of equador should have risen up to stop rainforest destruction. The hard fact is the people need those jobs, but why should they be subject to those conditions while Apple sits on a $100 billion cash pile?

    It's your right to buy an iPhone and it's my right to tell you that in doing so you are supporting abusinve labor practices. If it bothers you that I say it, well you should look at yourself in the mirror.

    The bottom line is Apple is not forced to employ workers under those conditions. It's Apple's choice to do so. It's your choice to buy Apple products or not. If you feel guilty buying them, it's not my problem.
    01-31-12 02:28 PM
  18. Kiddo2050's Avatar
    7 million deaths/murders is a BIGGER issue! This is beginning to sound like holocaust denial all over again!

    Go ahead, hold Apple solely accountable and ignore the rest of the problems and I hope you all feel better. You're all right, I defer to you all and your moral superiority for opposing Chinese labor.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Saying there is a bigger issue, doesn't mean this isn't an issue. And it's an easily solveable issue.

    I don't oppose Chinese labor at all. I oppose companies subjecting people to those conditions when they don't have to. I also oppose people making apologies for a company with that much money to avoid the issue.

    Look if Apple was struggling, I'd still say they were wrong, but I might say they need to do it for their survival and so we need to press the government or something, but here is an instance where a company has the power and the resources to stop this abuse and they are not doing it. That's the issue.
    01-31-12 02:32 PM
  19. xandermac's Avatar
    It's your right to buy an iPhone and it's my right to tell you that in doing so you are supporting abusinve labor practices. If it bothers you that I say it, well you should look at yourself in the mirror.
    By that logic you support Murder as RIM uses conflict minerals.

    Principals only work if you stand by them.

    I made a choice in November to use a company that's trying to make a difference. There's a lot more to do and I'm sure Apple will be part of the process.

    What did you do?

    Turns out you also support Chinese labor camps.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreyc...ur-blackberry/

    So where are your demands that RIM audit their supply chain and pay for changes?

    Everyone is accountable, like it or not.

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    Last edited by xandermac; 01-31-12 at 02:51 PM.
    01-31-12 02:33 PM
  20. Kiddo2050's Avatar
    By that logic you support Murder as RIM uses conflict minerals.

    Principals only work if you stand by them.

    I made a choice in November to use a company that's trying to make a difference. There's a lot more to do and I'm sure Apple will be part of the process.

    What did you do?




    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Saying there is a bigger issue, doesn't mean this isn't an issue. And it's an easily solveable issue.

    I don't oppose Chinese labor at all. I oppose companies subjecting people to those conditions when they don't have to. I also oppose people making apologies for a company with that much money to avoid the issue.

    Look if Apple was struggling, I'd still say they were wrong, but I might say they need to do it for their survival and so we need to press the government or something, but here is an instance where a company has the power and the resources to stop this abuse and they are not doing it. That's the issue.
    01-31-12 02:36 PM
  21. xandermac's Avatar
    I oppose companies subjecting people to those conditions when they don't have to.
    Edited my post above. So what do you intend to do?

    Ask RIM to finally be transparent about their supply chain? Switch to another manufacturer that is transparent? Or nothing and just point fingers?


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    01-31-12 02:39 PM
  22. avt123's Avatar
    Saying there is a bigger issue, doesn't mean this isn't an issue. And it's an easily solveable issue.
    I can't find where he says this isn't an issue.
    01-31-12 02:41 PM
  23. Kiddo2050's Avatar
    By that logic you support Murder as RIM uses conflict minerals.

    Principals only work if you stand by them.

    I made a choice in November to use a company that's trying to make a difference. There's a lot more to do and I'm sure Apple will be part of the process.

    What did you do?




    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    What do/did I do?

    Well for my living I teach corporations how to deal with activsits and deal with issues of exctly this type.

    Over and over again, I see companies fail to address social and environmental issues that they can actually easily solve. It harms their corporate reputations, it harms their ability to attract high-value workers etc. (and most of all it harms the workers they are abusing - usually through supply chain relationships).

    I teach companies how they can avoid these issues by being proactive in montoring emergin issues in their supply chains etc.

    In short I do a heck of a lot.. it's my job.

    Apple has totally failed to proactively address these issues, just as Nike did years ago. The pressue will not let up... in the long run it will harm Apple shareholders.
    01-31-12 02:42 PM
  24. xandermac's Avatar
    Apple has totally failed to proactively address these issues, just as Nike did years ago. The pressue will not let up... in the long run it will harm Apple shareholders.
    I agree. There is more to do and if the pressure is maintained something may happen, but it'll require all manufacturers to join the fight, not just apple. That includes RIM that have ZERO transparency and they can't afford another stock hit. They can try and hide their Chinese links but it'll eventually bite them just like Apple have been bitten. Better for them to be transparent and lead the fight than to get caught out.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreyc...ur-blackberry/




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    Last edited by xandermac; 01-31-12 at 02:55 PM.
    01-31-12 02:49 PM
  25. Kiddo2050's Avatar
    I agree. There is more to do and if the pressure is maintained something may happen, but it'll require all manufacturers to join the fight, not just apple. That includes RIM that have ZERO transparency and they can't afford another stock hit.




    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    I can see how most peopel think this but that isn't how it works. The activist targets usually the market leader and/or the worst company (in this case it's one in the same - I know the people that study this issue and Apple's record is worse than other companies). They pressure the target to make a change and then they use that to leaverage other companies to match. That's the way they do it and it is effective. Targeting industry doesn't work it's too amorphous.

    We are in the very very early stages of this.
    01-31-12 02:56 PM
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