02-07-12 04:28 AM
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  1. xandermac's Avatar
    Nobody in this business is innocent. I am less concerned about labour in China (at least it's all adults who work in these factories of their own free will) than I am about conflict minerals that people are waging wars over in Congo. I think Apple has managed to find a conflict-free supply, but RIM is still buying Congolese rare earths.

    Can anyone confirm or deny? Would be a major PR score for RIM if they could say that african kids are no longer turned into soldiers or sold into slavery on their account.
    This needs repeating, This subject actually deserves its own sticky thread with a call for everyone to contact their manufacturer of choice and demand an end to the use of conflict minerals.

    Apple require that all vendors in the chain certify that they do not use conflict minerals and they audit them to try and enforce that requirement. I'm certain it's not 100% effective but at least they're doing something.

    Canada has a massive deposit of Coltan so there is no excuse for RIM not to demand its vendors start to go Conflict Free also, by only purchasing Canadian minerals where available and Zero from the Congo. It's a start....

    It's not up to 1 company to make a difference, it's up to them all but it starts with US, if we let them slide they will slide (even your favorite company).

    After 5,000,000+ deaths its time for us all to say something.
    Last edited by xandermac; 01-30-12 at 10:48 AM.
    01-30-12 10:41 AM
  2. mjs416's Avatar
    This needs repeating, This subject actually deserves its own sticky thread with a call for everyone to contact their manufacturer of choice and demand an end to the use of conflict minerals.

    Apple require that all vendors in the chain certify that they do not use conflict minerals and they audit them to try and enforce that requirement. I'm certain it's not 100% effective but at least they're doing something.

    Canada has a massive deposit of Coltan so there is no excuse for RIM not to demand its vendors start to go Conflict Free also, by only purchasing Canadian minerals where available. It's a start....

    It's not up to 1 company to make a difference, it's up to them all but it starts with US, if we let them slide they will slide (even your favorite company).

    After 5,000,000+ deaths its time for us all to say something.
    Nice job trying to derail this thread but the discussion is about chinese labor not conflict minerals in the congo. If you want to try and make apple seem like the good guy in them putting the almighty dollar above human safety feel free to make another thread.
    01-30-12 10:49 AM
  3. xandermac's Avatar
    Nice job trying to derail this thread but the discussion is about chinese labor not conflict minerals in the congo. If you want to try and make apple seem like the good guy in them putting the almighty dollar above human safety feel free to make another thread.
    I'll put apple in the same boat as everyone else, but I refuse to ignore the bigger problem. 5 million deaths/murders is a big deal whether or not you want me to ignore it. Sorry.

    All companies have a responsibility to try and make things better, however they'll only do it of we make enough noise. Ignoring conflict mineral wars and focusing on Chinese plants gives companies yet another reason to do nothing.

    A discussion on human rights shouldn't ignore any aspect. I'm sorry of you disagree.

    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    01-30-12 10:54 AM
  4. mjs416's Avatar
    I'll put apple in the same boat as everyone else, but I refuse to ignore the bigger problem. 5 million deaths/murders is a big deal whether or not you want me to ignore it. Sorry.

    All companies have a responsibility to try and make things better, however they'll only do it of we make enough noise. Ignoring conflict mineral wars and focusing on Chinese plants gives companies yet another reason to do nothing.

    A discussion on human rights shouldn't ignore any aspect. I'm sorry of you disagree.

    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Do you seriously not understand the difference between people engaging in tribal / ethnic warfare for backwoods mining operations and occupational safety issues with a top industrialized country in the world? Neither are trivial - but they are not the same. Again - go make a thread title conflict minerals whatever.
    01-30-12 10:59 AM
  5. xandermac's Avatar
    Do you seriously not understand the difference between people engaging in tribal / ethnic warfare for backwoods mining operations and occupational safety issues with a top industrialized country in the world? Neither are trivial - but they are not the same. Again - go make a thread title conflict minerals whatever.
    I was replying to another poster in this thread. If a real moderator wishes to remove my comments they are free to do so. However, any discussion of human rights should address the problems faced everywhere. It's quite possible that awareness is part of the problem, asking me to keep quiet won't help that.

    I'll leave this thread but i'll ask politely that you not ask others to ignore a real problem, that you allow discussion so that we can all try to make a difference.

    Thanks.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    01-30-12 11:04 AM
  6. mjs416's Avatar
    I was replying to another poster in this thread. If a real moderator wishes to remove my comments they are free to do so. However, any discussion of human rights should address the problems faced everywhere. It's quite possible that awareness is part of the problem, asking me to keep quiet won't help that.

    I'll leave this thread but i'll ask politely that you not ask others to ignore a real problem, that you allow discussion so that we can all try to make a difference.

    Thanks.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    OK fair enough. I'll not ask people to ignore human rights issues (even though I never did that to begin with) if you stop trying to make apple out to be the morally superior company that they arent.
    01-30-12 11:07 AM
  7. dandbj13's Avatar
    Do you seriously not understand the difference between people engaging in tribal / ethnic warfare for backwoods mining operations and occupational safety issues with a top industrialized country in the world? Neither are trivial - but they are not the same. Again - go make a thread title conflict minerals whatever.
    Really? Please tell me the difference? Both situations are a matter of local politics. Both are exacerbated by Western consumerism. Both highlight the issue of human rights. Ah, but this thread is not about human rights. It's about RIM scoring some media points against Apple by using human rights as a game piece.
    01-30-12 11:35 AM
  8. mjs416's Avatar
    Really? Please tell me the difference? Both situations are a matter of local politics. Both are exacerbated by Western consumerism. Both highlight the issue of human rights. Ah, but this thread is not about human rights. It's about RIM scoring some media points against Apple by using human rights as a game piece.
    And car accidents result in fatalities just as gun violence does - both result in fatalities but neither has anything to do with each other.

    Conflict minerals = internal struggle between ethnic tribes / groups in a low tech non-formalized backdrops resulting in groups killing each other over the rights to mine or process natural resources.

    China labor = highly industrialized country forcing workers to work for pennies, in low quality dormitories at facilities that lack basic occupational safety provisions.

    The next time someone in the congo dies from an explosion from a chemical used in the cleaning of iphone screens at a manufacturing facility or the next time varying tribesmen in china are killing each other over tantalum mines - then we can probably have this discussion.

    Apple needs no help from anyone in making themselves look like that - they did it themselves.
    01-30-12 11:45 AM
  9. johnny316's Avatar
    Folks,
    If any company, RIM, Apple, Samsung, etc. knowing knew about all the Occupational Health & Safety plus Environmental issues, they should be called on it.

    One of the issues is that Apple knew of all these problems going back to 2009 and earlier. Apple offered lip service and still continue to squeeze their suppliers.
    An aluminium dust explosion in May 2011 and other in Dec 2011...

    Apple Chinese plant explosions caused by Al dust
    Apple Chinese plant explosions caused by Al dust

    Apple’s record profits built on grinding employees into dust – then blowing them up | ExtremeTech
    01-30-12 12:16 PM
  10. FRG_RC's Avatar
    Someone said: wrecking dreams wasn't his/her job. But I gladly will take it.

    You dreamers, Corporations are driven by profit. period.

    There's nothing more to that, the so called "ethics" are just propaganda, just like any other government out there will sell to you. They will ALWAYS pick the more profitable route, always, there are not "if" Being RIM, Apple, google, Samsung, etc.

    Have you seen a documentary called "The corporation"? You should try that, just wait for the segment when they talk about what was the general "feeling" on Wall Street on 9/11 that will open your eyes.

    There is no such thing as a "good corporation" They would destroy the world if they can get any profit from it.
    Last edited by FRG_RC; 01-30-12 at 12:23 PM.
    01-30-12 12:17 PM
  11. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    If you are only interested in scoring a few worthless points against Apple and not the state of Chinese labor, it seems you are just as guilty of exploitation. I won't even bother asking how many products you own that come from the same part of the world. What would be the point.

    What would you have Apple do? Perhaps they should unilaterally, single-handedly fix China. That really would be magical and revolutionary.
    Reduce their margins of 10% and give to American workers the change for U.S.A being such a good (and over marketed "designed in america") label for their devices ?
    It's not an apple only story, don't miss-read me.
    But for those who once shot at the big bad wolf (or big "blue" brother) and claim to be "environment friends" ... They can afford to make an effort and produce their goods near the place they're used.
    01-30-12 12:25 PM
  12. Economist101's Avatar
    I never said its illegal. Just big business doing what they do to succeed. Selling us a perception masked as news. Not illegal.
    its true apple is the goose that laid the golden egg, who bites the hand that feeds. Ah but do I have to believe, no!
    Where did I use the word "illegal," or describe any part of it as illegal?
    01-30-12 12:30 PM
  13. anthogag's Avatar
    There are currently a lot of 'issues' in the world and western companies have the opportunity to demand products are made in 'responsible work environments'. Many surely do.

    It's surprising but It looks like Apple is just a D-bag company
    01-30-12 12:33 PM
  14. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Someone said: wrecking dreams wasn't his/her job. But I gladly will take it.

    You dreamers, Corporations are driven by profit. period.

    There's nothing more to that, the so called "ethics" are just propaganda, just like any other government out there will sell to you. They will ALWAYS pick the more profitable route, always, there are not "if" Being RIM, Apple, google, Samsung, etc.

    Have you seen a documentary called "The corporation"? You should try that, just wait for the segment when they talk about what was the general "feeling" on Wall Street on 9/11 that will open your eyes.

    There is no such thing as a "good corporation" They would destroy the world if they can get any profit from it.
    Sadly, I agree. I am admittedly jaded, though.

    Corporations will WHATEVER they can get away with to make money. They will inch to the line, and see how far over the line they can get. It's about making money.

    If they can find a cheaper way to make a product and thereby increase, they will do that. It's simple math. It is what we (as shareholders) DEMAND they do.

    I challenge you guys to write Apple (or RIM, or Google, whatever) and demand they stop dealing with Chinese firms. They won't listen, but try anyway.

    You cannot espouse capitalism and then throw rocks at what it has wrought.

    Back to the main point: it sucks that Apple allows this to go on. Period. Secondary point: if anyone can truly claim that he/she is not currently benefiting (even remotely) from a humans right violation with regards to something you use everyday, I invite you to come out of your hermit cave and throw the first stone.
    01-30-12 12:33 PM
  15. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Reduce their margins of 10% and give to American workers the change for U.S.A being such a good (and over marketed "designed in america") label for their devices ?
    It's not an apple only story, don't miss-read me.
    But for those who once shot at the big bad wolf (or big "blue" brother) and claim to be "environment friends" ... They can afford to make an effort and produce their goods near the place they're used.
    I don't disagree with you. They can do better.

    I never give credence to any corporate ethical codes. They are nonsense. I am truly surprised that anyone does.

    Western ideals LOL... when you have grown up to see oil companies devastate third-world natural environments (to the degree that they are listed as the most polluted places in the world) while publicly touting a policy of "doing harm to no people", you learn to take ethics with a grain of salt.

    I know people who have hanged because they dared complain that an oil company made it hard for his people to make a living by fishing.
    01-30-12 12:39 PM
  16. kbz1960's Avatar
    I'll put apple in the same boat as everyone else, but I refuse to ignore the bigger problem. 5 million deaths/murders is a big deal whether or not you want me to ignore it. Sorry.

    All companies have a responsibility to try and make things better, however they'll only do it of we make enough noise. Ignoring conflict mineral wars and focusing on Chinese plants gives companies yet another reason to do nothing.

    A discussion on human rights shouldn't ignore any aspect. I'm sorry of you disagree.

    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    No I don't believe they will do anything unless there are more $$$$$ in it than doing what they are doing now. They don't care about anything other than $$$$$.

    When a trillion in profit isn't enough nothing is ever enough. Greed rules the earth.
    01-30-12 12:44 PM
  17. Economist101's Avatar
    Reduce their margins of 10% and give to American workers the change for U.S.A being such a good (and over marketed "designed in america") label for their devices ?
    Your argument will be more effective if you have the correct facts. It's not "designed in America," but rather "designed by Apple in California," a statement which is true in every sense. As for the good people of California, we benefit from Apple's corporate tax payments (at least of their U.S.-based income), and the presence of Apple, Google, FaceBook, HP, Oracle, Pixar and others are a significant boost to both the California technology/arts sector and the business environment here generally.
    01-30-12 12:47 PM
  18. kbz1960's Avatar
    Oh so apple is only good if you live in California where you get the benefits of profits made from cheap Chinese labor or you own stock.

    I guess maybe at least they are paying something unlike all the companies with fake headquarters in other countries for avoiding paying.
    01-30-12 01:02 PM
  19. mjs416's Avatar
    Your argument will be more effective if you have the correct facts. It's not "designed in America," but rather "designed by Apple in California," a statement which is true in every sense. As for the good people of California, we benefit from Apple's corporate tax payments (at least of their U.S.-based income), and the presence of Apple, Google, FaceBook, HP, Oracle, Pixar and others are a significant boost to both the California technology/arts sector and the business environment here generally.
    Using your own logic of your argument being more effective if you have the correct facts - what did Apple pay in taxes last year? As much as say GE for example?
    01-30-12 01:35 PM
  20. PineappleUnderTheSea's Avatar
    RIM has plastic molding done in China. Don't kid yourself, the whole IT industry has critical parts of its value chain somewhere in Asia, RIM is no exception. Every IT customer I talk to always demands that our products be available in China, since that's where they will be molding.

    I'd love to say that Apple should be a better corporate citizen and pull out of Foxconn, but that would be very naive. Part of the blame lies right here in NAFTA, too many manufacturers and executives saying, "We can't do that", or "We can't make that happen". China can do it, and they make it happen fast. And if they can't, they build it.

    In my line of work, I've seen plenty of customers source their operation from China simply because they couldn't find anyone in the NAFTA region to make it for them, or if they could it would take months. It's a crying shame that we value stockholder profit so much that we are no longer willing to take manufacturing risks in America. Ah well....
    01-30-12 01:57 PM
  21. augidog's Avatar
    interesting, to say the least, and all over the place, too...but still way interesting.

    someone mentioned "clout"...well, i'm here to tell you that any one of a million corporations has the "clout"...what they don't have is the "cahones." oh yeah, they also have to care, which they don't anyways.

    emerging foreign markets are under fire, and for what? for merely following the only business model it knows...that of the american corporation and it's predatory nature.

    for some strange reason, "we the people" allowed a company to have the same status as a breathing human being, with all the freedoms to pursue "happiness" and other stuff...

    and then we allowed this "person" to become enslaved by it's stockholders, in a financial sweat-shop, where production is gauged by share value and not how much actual production is taking place. and boy oh boy do they ever whip on that poor "soul."

    then add in that other gub'mints are more or less corrupt than our own, so have a better or worse reputation than our own. and regional & tribal issues and on and on.

    and the middlemen...bah! all those stuffed suits who call themselves corporate executives, who's only job is get each and every one of us to 1)make something for them for next to nothing, and/or 2)pay every last cent they can wring for that something, and 3)exploit whatever local conditions allow them to exert the most pressure in either direction.

    it's a cruel world...and some of the cruelest entities roaming the planet are corporations, legal slaves who directly answer to noone but their owners.

    it's the investor who has to show some ethical balls...keep the investment in one place long enough to effect actual physical growth of a company, instead of soaking up your slave's financial blood at the end of every day. vote for ethics and transparency as policy, fire anyone who doesn't produce anything but good ideas about how to charge more money. people will pay more for more service, but people aren't enjoying paying more for more cars, boats, planes, junkets, bonuses etc for a bunch of do-nothings. healthy capitalism requires a healthy attitude towards investment, it's just that ethically simple.

    boy, the 70's sure were fun, man...
    Last edited by augidog; 01-30-12 at 03:16 PM.
    lotuslanderz likes this.
    01-30-12 03:01 PM
  22. Kiddo2050's Avatar
    Hmm, upon what facts are you basing your assumptions? I don't know either way.

    The events you mentioned are hardly new, just getting major exposure via recent NYT and media rehashings (oooh, evil media).

    FWIW, to clarify for other posters, Foxconn, which makes iPhones for Apple *as well as computers, etc. for a huge roster of tech companies*, is the one embroiled with the suicides issue. Pegatron is contracted to make iPads and two sites had explosions likely due to accumulation of aluminum dust.

    Keep reading and Googling (Binging?) as a number of journalists and watch groups have started speaking up that the original NYT articles has some misinformation. Like most things in life, very little is wholly black or white.
    I study this stuff for a living, and I can tell you this Apple apologetic stuff is pure crap. It is WELL KNOWN that Apple has one of the worst records in high tech in terms of labor abuse.

    Futher more even if Apple's record was the same (which, again, it isn't, it's worse) there is NO EXCUSE for having such a poor labor record when you are sitting on over 100 billion dollars in cash. No excuse , zero. So please don't apologize for Apple. They know full well what is going on, and they have ample resources to fix the problem and the CHOOSE not to. Apple =
    lotuslanderz likes this.
    01-30-12 05:38 PM
  23. PineappleUnderTheSea's Avatar
    Futher more even if Apple's record was the same (which, again, it isn't, it's worse) there is NO EXCUSE for having such a poor labor record when you are sitting on over 100 billion dollars in cash. No excuse , zero. So please don't apologize for Apple. They know full well what is going on, and they have ample resources to fix the problem and the CHOOSE not to. Apple =
    Oh please. If the people in China feel they are not well treated, then they should rise up and so something about it, like we did in the US. It's not up to Apple or RIM to solve China's problems, it is the people that must want to make the change.

    If Apple does want to control manufacturing, then it should build its own facilities over in China, hire its own people, and pay them well. It shouldn't go solve Foxconn's problems.
    01-30-12 06:31 PM
  24. Economist101's Avatar
    Oh so apple is only good if you live in California where you get the benefits of profits made from cheap Chinese labor or you own stock.
    I never used the word "only." :-)

    Using your own logic of your argument being more effective if you have the correct facts - what did Apple pay in taxes last year? As much as say GE for example?
    I didn't make any claims about the amount of taxes paid, nor did I state the benefit from taxes alone was significant. As far as I know, anything paid is better than nothing. Nice try, though.
    01-30-12 06:59 PM
  25. igotberryfever's Avatar
    If you are only interested in scoring a few worthless points against Apple and not the state of Chinese labor, it seems you are just as guilty of exploitation. I won't even bother asking how many products you own that come from the same part of the world. What would be the point.

    What would you have Apple do? Perhaps they should unilaterally, single-handedly fix China. That really would be magical and revolutionary.
    How about make their crappy products in the usa? Thats what they should do.
    01-30-12 07:23 PM
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