02-07-12 03:28 AM
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  1. damndirtyapes's Avatar
    If you are only interested in scoring a few worthless points against Apple and not the state of Chinese labor, it seems you are just as guilty of exploitation. I won't even bother asking how many products you own that come from the same part of the world. What would be the point.

    What would you have Apple do? Perhaps they should unilaterally, single-handedly fix China. That really would be magical and revolutionary.
    Apple doesn't have to unilaterally, single handedly fix China. All they have to do is unilaterally, single handedly raise their expectations for workers rights a lot higher.

    Apple demands that it supplier companies have turn around times that guarantee that workers will be abused.
    lotuslanderz and fanatical like this.
    01-29-12 09:58 PM
  2. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Apple doesn't have to unilaterally, single handedly fix China. All they have to do is unilaterally, single handedly raise their expectations for workers rights a lot higher.

    Apple demands that it supplier companies have turn around times that guarantee that workers will be abused.
    Does it stop with Apple. What about RIM?
    01-29-12 09:58 PM
  3. Dapper37's Avatar
    Interesting article here. I was curious about this issue, so I googled and came up with this article: Do You Know Who Manufactured Your Blackberry? - Forbes

    (Yes, I know it is a Forbes article, so it must be "biased", but suspend that built-in refrain for a brief moment).

    The author is discussing what he deems to be parrying by RIM with regards to encryption keys and Indian authorities, but what he dug up is somewhat relevant to this issue. Check out the suppliers info:



    Again, I know this article won't matter; Forbes hates RIM like everyone else. But I still hold that Apple is not singularly evil, and/or (please do not stone me) RIM may not be so lily-white.

    Just a thought.
    All stones aside, just lily-white peddles. Where in your quote does it refer to whats happening at foxcon and apple. Or anything of the like.
    01-29-12 09:59 PM
  4. lotuslanderz's Avatar
    RIMs code of conduct, thanks

    The issue may be Apple has a similar code but didn't 'live it'. That's the issue
    Most of these codes of conducts are "aspirational" and are rarely if ever enforced. Check out all the articles from the NY Times and the 60 Minutes story on this.

    Apple is being singled out because they are the top (tech) company in the world. They've always had this holier-than-thou public image, which we can all now see, is a facade (I guess they are no different from other companies). With all the cash they have (and the bucket-loads that they will reap as demand continues to sky-rocket), they do have the capability to enact change. Tim Cook should LEAD, instead of offering that poor excuse of a memo to hide behind Apple's business practises that he himself put into place as COO. Walk the walk, Apple.
    fanatical likes this.
    01-29-12 09:59 PM
  5. anthogag's Avatar
    The only thing this shows is factories in China. Factories certainly vary in China in terms of working conditions. I don't see Foxconn on the list

    My Torch 9800 shows Made in Mexico
    01-29-12 10:01 PM
  6. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    All stones aside, just lily-white peddles. Where in your quote does it refer to whats happening at foxcon and apple. Or anything of the like.
    There is a forum law that states I have to mention Apple's happenings?

    There is a logical gulf. Put down the armor, and let's reason together. A few of you say Apple is evil for making stuff in China. The article I linked to claims RIM suppliers do business in China too.

    Still with me?

    I don't think anyone is denying what Apple is doing. I just find it ludicrous that some of you think RIM wears a halo. Corporate ethics are things of fairy tales.

    I know that it will make some feel better to think that RIM actually cares about making money less than Apple. I don't wreak dreams for a living, so I say dream on.
    01-29-12 10:04 PM
  7. lotuslanderz's Avatar
    Again, I know this article won't matter; Forbes hates RIM like everyone else. But I still hold that Apple is not singularly evil, and/or (please do not stone me) RIM may not be so lily-white.

    Just a thought.
    You're probably right, BUT Apple has the clout to change things. And we can participate by not buying every tiny iteration in a gadget.
    01-29-12 10:05 PM
  8. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    The only thing this shows is factories in China. Factories certainly vary in China in terms of working conditions. I don't see Foxconn on the list

    My Torch 9800 shows Made in Mexico
    LOL. I like you.

    So some Chinese factories are okay?
    01-29-12 10:06 PM
  9. anthogag's Avatar
    Most of these codes of conducts are "aspirational" and are rarely if ever enforced. Check out all the articles from the NY Times and the 60 Minutes story on this.

    Apple is being singled out because they are the top (tech) company in the world. They've always had this holier-than-thou public image, which we can all now see, is a facade (I guess they are no different from other companies). With all the cash they have (and the bucket-loads that they will reap as demand continues to sky-rocket), they do have the capability to enact change. Tim Cook should LEAD, instead of offering that poor excuse of a memo to hide behind Apple's business practises that he himself put into place as COO. Walk the walk, Apple.


    Apple is being singled-out because of their 'holier-than-thou image' and their hypocrisy...media loves contradiction
    Dapper37 likes this.
    01-29-12 10:07 PM
  10. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    You're probably right, BUT Apple has the clout to change things. And we can participate by not buying every tiny iteration in a gadget.
    Clout is relative. We have all heard that RIM is doing well, with billions in the bank. RIM have clout as well.

    I don't argue with your last statement; I will state this: for those of us in the Western World, we are all complicit. We want things cheap. If we quit buying stuff routed through Asia, we'd have close to nothing.
    01-29-12 10:09 PM
  11. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Apple is being singled-out because of their 'holier-than-thou image' and their hypocrisy...media loves contradiction
    I want to join the thank/like love-a-thon that you and Dapper have going, so could you explain to me this holier-than-thou attitude?

    Apple is one of the most ruthless companies that ever existed. Steve Jobs was an unforgiving shark. I have never seen anyone get fuzzy about Apple. Apple wants to make money, and they do not care who knows.

    Maybe Waterloo and Mountain View (yep, i said it) could learn a thing or two from the Teddy Bear SJ made...
    01-29-12 10:19 PM
  12. Economist101's Avatar
    Apple is being singled-out because of their 'holier-than-thou image' and their hypocrisy...media loves contradiction
    Actually no, that's not the reason. The wind always blows hardest at the top of the mountain. Sure, Foxconn has many clients of which Apple is one, but those other companies don't have $98 billion in the bank, so they don't get the questions that Apple does.

    But here's your chance to make me look foolish. I want you to find a single article from a major news outlet that suggests Apple is "holier than thou." I'd love to read it.
    01-29-12 10:31 PM
  13. Dapper37's Avatar
    I want to join the thank/like love-a-thon that you and Dapper have going, so could you explain to me this holier-than-thou attitude?

    Apple is one of the most ruthless companies that ever existed. Steve Jobs was an unforgiving shark. I have never seen anyone get fuzzy about Apple. Apple wants to make money, and they do not care who knows.

    Maybe Waterloo and Mountain View (yep, i said it) could learn a thing or two from the Teddy Bear SJ made...
    We both have an appreciation for quality truths, not so much for half baked attempts to link apples negatives
    To help with your question, like you don't know the answer, I'm sure he's refering to the main stream medias love in with everything apple or the way they try to make everything apple seem like news.
    01-29-12 10:32 PM
  14. johnny316's Avatar
    Apple is a poor corporate citizen. They put profits ahead of human lives and pollute the environment.
    fanatical likes this.
    01-29-12 10:35 PM
  15. Dapper37's Avatar
    Actually no, that's not the reason. The wind always blows hardest at the top of the mountain. Sure, Foxconn has many clients of which Apple is one, but those other companies don't have $98 billion in the bank, so they don't get the questions that Apple does.

    But here's your chance to make me look foolish. I want you to find a single article from a major news outlet that suggests Apple is "holier than thou." I'd love to read it.
    In the process of proclaiming the status of holier than thou, its key not to proclaim its holier than thou. Its that bit the media is so good at when they attempt to alter peoples perceptions.
    I know, that never happens
    01-29-12 10:38 PM
  16. Economist101's Avatar
    To help with your question, like you don't know the answer, I'm sure he's refering to the main stream medias love in with everything apple or the way they try to make everything apple seem like news.
    Actually it seems to be that Apple "news" achieves page views, and page views drive advertising revenues. Instead of letting it get to you, maybe you should consider the economics of the "news" industry, and understand that, ultimately, news agencies will chase the stories that help those agencies turn a profit.

    Obviously, the fact that they don't focus more on RIM bothers you, and that's understandable. But instead of complaining how unfair it is, maybe it makes more sense to look at the big picture. If RIM makes a killer product that consumers like, no amount of Apple coverage will prevent RIM from succeeding. But until that happens, and as long as Apple stories drive so many page views, we'll keep seeing them. That's just how it is.
    01-29-12 10:39 PM
  17. Dapper37's Avatar
    There is a forum law that states I have to mention Apple's happenings?

    There is a logical gulf. Put down the armor, and let's reason together. A few of you say Apple is evil for making stuff in China. The article I linked to claims RIM suppliers do business in China too.

    Still with me?

    I don't think anyone is denying what Apple is doing. I just find it ludicrous that some of you think RIM wears a halo. Corporate ethics are things of fairy tales.

    I know that it will make some feel better to think that RIM actually cares about making money less than Apple. I don't wreak dreams for a living, so I say dream on.
    I understand, I guess its that this is currently apples issue in the media (for once) yet you go out of your way to link RIM and the link is there but weak at best. Buy your logic apple should wear a lot more of the grief that RIM has recieved. I never saw you marching to that tune.
    01-29-12 10:44 PM
  18. Dapper37's Avatar
    Actually it seems to be that Apple "news" achieves page views, and page views drive advertising revenues. Instead of letting it get to you, maybe you should consider the economics of the "news" industry, and understand that, ultimately, news agencies will chase the stories that help those agencies turn a profit.

    Obviously, the fact that they don't focus more on RIM bothers you, and that's understandable. But instead of complaining how unfair it is, maybe it makes more sense to look at the big picture. If RIM makes a killer product that consumers like, no amount of Apple coverage will prevent RIM from succeeding. But until that happens, and as long as Apple stories drive so many page views, we'll keep seeing them. That's just how it is.
    Your not always wrong, you make good points that hold some truth. You clearly believe that apple is not paying for some of what the media is putting out as news. I do.
    Perception is a commodity that the media sells every day. Believe it or not.
    01-29-12 10:49 PM
  19. VanCity778's Avatar
    I support Mexicans working in Mexico. My BB was made in Mexico, just like my snowmobile.
    01-29-12 10:52 PM
  20. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Actually it seems to be that Apple "news" achieves page views, and page views drive advertising revenues. Instead of letting it get to you, maybe you should consider the economics of the "news" industry, and understand that, ultimately, news agencies will chase the stories that help those agencies turn a profit.

    Obviously, the fact that they don't focus more on RIM bothers you, and that's understandable. But instead of complaining how unfair it is, maybe it makes more sense to look at the big picture. If RIM makes a killer product that consumers like, no amount of Apple coverage will prevent RIM from succeeding. But until that happens, and as long as Apple stories drive so many page views, we'll keep seeing them. That's just how it is.
    But... but... everyone is so brainwashed. RIM does make a killer product, but the media, along with Apple and their Chinese affiliates won't let the world see it. So there.

    Dapper: I humbly say I am well-traveled. I have seen way more pain and suffering than most people will see in a million lifetimes. I don't say that to get sympathy; it's made me who I am. That is why I try to enjoy the small things... like a small handheld computer called a smartphone that many take for granted.

    It ain't about what Apple is doing. That is documented. I just find it funny that some people here truly believe RIM is any less profit-driven than Apple.

    Apple and RIM are around to make money, and the sick truth is that profitability precludes ethics. The investors of both companies demand that. You and I demand that.

    I did not go out of my way to find anything. Let's have a rational discussion. Does RIM cut ethical corners to make money? Possibly the same corners that Apple does? Why is that such a painful proposition for you?

    Why can't we have a fair discussion?

    If it makes you feel better to believe that RIM is a white knight, I retract the statement.

    I just want to state that this WHOLE thread is clearly biased against Apple!
    01-29-12 10:55 PM
  21. Dapper37's Avatar
    Quote; Dapper: I humbly say I am well-traveled. I have seen way more pain and suffering than most people will see in a million lifetimes. I don't say that to get sympathy; it's made me who I am. That is why I try to enjoy the small things... like a small handheld computer called a smartphone that many take for granted.

    It ain't about what Apple is doing. That is documented. I just find it funny that some people here truly believe RIM is any less profit-driven than Apple.

    Apple and RIM are around to make money, and the sick truth is that profitability precludes ethics. The investors of both companies demand that. You and I demand that.

    I did not go out of my way to find anything. Let's have a rational discussion. Does RIM cut ethical corners to make money? Possibly the same corners that Apple does? Why is that such a painful proposition for you?

    *I take no pleasure in your previous suffering (somewhat off topic but just to be sure) Although many CBers come to CB, take pleasure in continualy ruin threads with their negative anti RIM perceptions. Nothing in this thread is painful for myself, I enjoy clearly stating the contradictions of others. You and others turned this thread into what it is, as per usual. My only hope is one day you see the light
    Last edited by Dapper37; 01-30-12 at 12:38 AM.
    01-29-12 11:06 PM
  22. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Quote; Dapper: I humbly say I am well-traveled. I have seen way more pain and suffering than most people will see in a million lifetimes. I don't say that to get sympathy; it's made me who I am. That is why I try to enjoy the small things... like a small handheld computer called a smartphone that many take for granted.

    It ain't about what Apple is doing. That is documented. I just find it funny that some people here truly believe RIM is any less profit-driven than Apple.

    Apple and RIM are around to make money, and the sick truth is that profitability precludes ethics. The investors of both companies demand that. You and I demand that.

    I did not go out of my way to find anything. Let's have a rational discussion. Does RIM cut ethical corners to make money? Possibly the same corners that Apple does? Why is that such a painful proposition for you?

    *I take no pleasure in your previous suffering (somewhat off topic but just to be sure) Although many CBers come to CB and continualy ruin threads with their negative anti RIM perceptions. Nothing in this thread is painful for myself, I enjoy clearly stating the contradictions of others. You and others turned this thread into what it is, as per usual. My only hope is one day you see the light
    What was the thread turned into? Don't hold back.

    I linked an article that claims RIM has ties to China. What did that do to your thread? What was it supposed to be about?

    My off-topic point was to show why may we have differing views on a lot of things. You seem to be young, good or evil, pro-RIMish. I am way more cynical. I don't think RIM cares about me or you ANY more than Apple does.

    What you need to understand is that a criticism of RIM is not a death wish.
    01-29-12 11:14 PM
  23. Economist101's Avatar
    You clearly believe that apple is not paying for some of what the media is putting out as news. I do.
    The problem with this is that Apple paying the media for positive coverage is as big a tech story as there could be these days, and I find it hard to believe that someone wouldn't report this behavior if they had the evidence. It's not like keeping a product secret; paying for news coverage necessarily requires that you pay outsiders, and outsiders have a tendency to act in their own best interest.
    01-29-12 11:21 PM
  24. Dapper37's Avatar
    The problem with this is that Apple paying the media for positive coverage is as big a tech story as there could be these days, and I find it hard to believe that someone wouldn't report this behavior if they had the evidence. It's not like keeping a product secret; paying for news coverage necessarily requires that you pay outsiders, and outsiders have a tendency to act in their own best interest.
    I never said its illegal. Just big business doing what they do to succeed. Selling us a perception masked as news. Not illegal.
    its true apple is the goose that laid the golden egg, who bites the hand that feeds. Ah but do I have to believe, no!
    Last edited by Dapper37; 01-30-12 at 12:42 AM.
    01-29-12 11:34 PM
  25. dandbj13's Avatar
    Apple doesn't have to unilaterally, single handedly fix China. All they have to do is unilaterally, single handedly raise their expectations for workers rights a lot higher.
    Higher than who's? The Chinese government? All the governments of the world? All the other tech companies of the world?

    Apple is being singled out because they are the top (tech) company in the world. They've always had this holier-than-thou public image, which we can all now see, is a facade (I guess they are no different from other companies).
    Nokia sells more phones. MS holds the reigns over every Windows PC. Macs are in single digits. Google dictates the rules for every Android device. Each of these players has more Chinese labor blood on their hands than Apple ever will. Where is the outcry against them? Again, this whole argument just sounds like bitter jealousy of a successful rival. I have seen no evidence in this thread of any genuine concern for the Chinese laborer.

    Apple is being singled-out because of their 'holier-than-thou image' and their hypocrisy...media loves contradiction
    Ironically, this thread began with the proposal that RIM is "holier-than-thou(Apple)", and should use that to score points with the media. Clearly, no one has a problem with a holier-than-thou attitude, as long as it is your saint of choice.

    Apple is a poor corporate citizen. They put profits ahead of human lives and pollute the environment.
    As opposed to whom?
    01-30-12 08:21 AM
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